Please give group leaders some gonads

[TempestAlphaOmega]

You want Turbine to implement a system that you believe will solve a problem that you state, in your own original post, is a rare occurance. Then you ask is there any reason NOT to do this?

Every poster after that point gives you one or more of the following:
* Why it's not a good idea
* How this was abused in the past
* What options are currently available to you to handle these types of issues

You disagree with all the posters and ask:

Is there NO way to design an equitable solution that allows parties to not be taken advantage of and keeps individuals from being exploited as well?

The answer is no. At least not one that relies on players as the end all be all in deciding what happens. If you want a system where players petition a DM to review the situation and based on text/voice chat/game logs to determine if a player should be removed from the party then that would be a system that would work (assuming the DM was competent to determine motive from the information provided). The problem with that is that such would take far longer then just recalling and reforming and if Turbine was going to put that much resources into such a system I would question why when there are many other better uses for said resources at this time.

[RudeIota]

You're wanting to burn and salt the fields in order to kill a single weed growing amidst your crops. Recall and reform or just stick it out and avoid them in the future.

Metaphorically, burning and salting the fields is *actually* reforming and resetting the quest. Being able to address the problem on an individual basis is far more surgical and smart.

There is a solution. You just don't happen to like the solution

You are correct. :-(

Unfortunately, the 'solution' is unfair to honest party members. It also has the potential to be very unpleasant and frustrating under some circumstances too. I don't think it has to be that way though so discussing this is a good thing, at least.

[nolaureltree000]

I would like to propose a voting system to get rid of such players. It would be difficult to abuse... If your entire party doesn't want you there, you must be doing something wrong.

it wouldnt be difficult to abuse. it would create more drama than it would solve. those groups of elitist TRs will kick people for dying, TWFers that dont use khopeshes, casters that dont slot a spell that the group wants, someone that makes a dumb mistake, etc.

your best bet to deal with pikers or jerks is to add them to your special friends list, then avoid grouping with them in the future.

[RudeIota]

You want Turbine to implement a system that you believe will solve a problem that you state, in your own original post, is a rare occurance. Then you ask is there any reason NOT to do this?

No need to be touchy.

Just because something is a "rare occurrence" doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. If certain chests don't give loot or occasionally AH items don't get delivered 0.2% of the time, is that not worth fixing?

Every poster after that point gives you one or more of the following:
* Why it's not a good idea
* How this was abused in the past
* What options are currently available to you to handle these types of issues

No, in fact there was very little material at first. The vast majority of replies were "No because its bad". Thank you for those who did explain their points later on though and I now I see how guilds can abuse a voting system.

The answer is no.

So how about something else, then? This is an opportunity to have an honest discussion about a real problem that exists. This unwillingness to even consider alternatives is a good example of an attitude that does not help DDO progress into an even better game.

[amethystdragon]

If you can come up with a system that allows party leaders the ability to remove players that are griefing the entire group, but at the same time not be abused by those that would try to; then we could discuss it. Until then, let's stick with the lesser of the two evils; recall and reform with out the problem person.

You don't like the idea of recalling and reforming; well those of us that lived through the time when group leaders could boot people do not like the idea of it coming back in any way shape or form.

There was a reason that Turbine removed that feature from the game.

[fluffybunnywilson]

Metaphorically, burning and salting the fields is *actually* reforming and resetting the quest. Being able to address the problem on an individual basis is far more surgical and smart.

I think that a better analogy for reforming and resetting the quests is driving home from the fields and then driving back to the fields. Except that you don't actually have to drive because the driving takes place "off camera" via the loading screen.

Burning and salting the fields is a little more extreme than the actual process of recalling and reforming - especially when you consider than there are less than a dozen non-raid quests in the game that should take more than 1/2 hour to run from start to finish.

[TempestAlphaOmega]

No need to be touchy.

I wasn't being such (at least such was not intended nor felt by myself), just doing exactly what I said recapping.

Just because something is a "rare occurrence" doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. If certain chests don't give loot or occasionally AH items don't get delivered 0.2% of the time, is that not worth fixing?.

True

No, in fact there was very little material at first. The vast majority of replies were "No because its bad". Thank you for those who did explain their points later on though and I now I see how guilds can abuse a voting system.

I can see where some people would feel it not worth putting extensive explanations because this topic pops up from time to time and a quick use of the search funtion could have brought you some information on this topic and what has already been discussed. I of course could also have done the same search and provided links but alas I did not.

So how about something else, then? This is an opportunity to have an honest discussion about a real problem that exists. This unwillingness to even consider alternatives is a good example of an attitude that does not help DDO progress into an even better game.

Forgive me if I don't agree with you on if people have provided solutions or discussed the issue. You do not agree with the answers of "if it ain't borked, don't fix it" or "the current system is the best way to go" or "It was borked, got fixed and works fine now" or "the current system already does work pretty well." and that is your right. I even provided you with a way it could work and pointed out why I thought it was not worth the resources on Turbine's part and not worth the time on players part.

If there were no other issues in the game and Turbine said "hey we have resources we don't know what to do with what do you players want?" I still don't know if this is an issue I would want them to try and fix beyond what we have now. You don't have to agree with what I feel is the best course of action any more than I have to agree with your opinion on the importance of this issue.

This unwillingness to even consider alternatives is a good example of an attitude that does not help DDO progress into an even better game.

I just don't agree with your inturpretation of peoples responses to mean that they are unwilling to even consider alternative. You have an idea and people have provided their response on why they feel it won't work. Just because nobody has come up with an idea that you agree with does not mean they are unwilling to consider alternatives. It does mean that they appear to be willing to live with the system that is currently in use and they don't have a better idea.

[ArkoHighStar]

No need to be touchy.

Just because something is a "rare occurrence" doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. If certain chests don't give loot or occasionally AH items don't get delivered 0.2% of the time, is that not worth fixing?


No, in fact there was very little material at first. The vast majority of replies were "No because its bad". Thank you for those who did explain their points later on though and I now I see how guilds can abuse a voting system.


So how about something else, then? This is an opportunity to have an honest discussion about a real problem that exists. This unwillingness to even consider alternatives is a good example of an attitude that does not help DDO progress into an even better game.

the simple fact is player behavior on average will always make this never return. When this was live during the first 5 months of play it was severely abused and was quickly removed from the game. So no "because its bad" was not what people were saying. What they were saying is: It was tried before and actual in game experience showed that it caused many more problems than it solved, so much so that the devs pulled it after 5 months with the introduction of Module 2: The Twilight forge

Party members may not leave the party while in a dungeon. They must first recall to a public space.

. This change prevented leaders from dismissing players until they left the dungeon space, and it has been like that ever since.

[danielost]

1 thing to remember is even if you boot said person from the party they did enter with you and they should still be a factor such as taking xp from the party.

[MartinusWyllt]

Metaphorically, burning and salting the fields is *actually* reforming and resetting the quest. Being able to address the problem on an individual basis is far more surgical and smart...

Yeah, I was going for a more global analogy for grouping in DDO where a individual shaft of wheat would represent a particular grouping experience. Sounded pretty cool in my head.

In that one instance where I did the reforming it would have had been nice to just dump the jerk, but reforming (it was for Diplo and we were on the last path to the boss) at least gave us a much more pleasant and death-free experience back to that same point.

[coolpenguin410]

Why does it work in other online games and not in DDO?

Because DDO quests are all instanced. Kicking someone from a group in a public area, like most MMO's are, just means they have to forge ahead on their on or just ride the groups coattails. In DDO, being kicked means you loose access to all loot and xp, dropping any and all progress you made back to zero.

[SableShadow]

This is an opportunity to have an honest discussion about a real problem that exists. This unwillingness to even consider alternatives is a good example of an attitude that does not help DDO progress into an even better game.

Once upon a time, someone pinged me in front of a grocery store to sign their ballot petition.

I didn't agree with what they wanted, and told them that's why I wouldn't sign.

"But if you sign, people can vote to see if they want it or not!"

"...I thought I just did."

[Dysmetria]

Unfortunately, the 'solution' is unfair to honest party members.

The solution is perfectly fair. Drop and reform, or stick it out, whichever gets you to the end faster.

Of course you could have avoided this situation entirely by only grouping with people you know and/or trust will conform to your standards. PUG at your own risk.

[Nysrock]

Personally I feel that unless a person is actively griefing the party, (which you can report them for) one person piking shouldn't make or break the party. You should just push on and complete then reform to drop that 1 bad apple. That way the 30 mins in isn't wasted time/resources.

But this is just my opinion. I generally try to be as self-sufficient as possible so even if I do get that bad player/pug group I can still carry on and complete the quest. Sometimes in spite of them.

[Jiirix]

The last thread on this topic is from 05-13-2011:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=318021

Please use the search function before posting. The same topic every 3 weeks isn't useful.
And /not signed because of all the possibilities to grief that were mentioned in all those threads.