Knock

[soulaeon]

Can a rogue run to every lock in the Shroud quickly? Probably not.
Knock is priceless.

Who actually uses Fog Cloud?

[skunk]

Can a rogue run to every lock in the Shroud quickly? Probably not.
Knock is priceless.

Who actually uses Fog Cloud?

I have used fog cloud at times in some situations, Mostly when soloing things. I did trade it out, but it had its uses prior to level 20.

Who needs a rogue to open them all? Your saying that in a 12 man shroud, nobody but the sorc knows how to do the puzzle?

that seems to be pretty silly. And i have only once seen the cube show up!

Knock is not priceless. Priceless is GH, Haste, Rage. Blur, Displacement.

Knock still isn't needed. I gave a good list of spells better then knock (unless your soloing).

*arent you the same guy, that was arguing that a drow sorc was better then a drow wiz because drow sorcs got +2 chr, and someone else had to point out, that drow get +2 int also? )

[Jaid314]

Knock isn't needed. You should have a rogue or a wiz that can do this.


At level 2

Blur, melfs, resist energy, web, scorching ray, fog cloud, electric loop, are all good choices.

Knock has its usefulness, if you solo, thats a big if.

okay, first off, i've run shroud as the only caster in the group. recently. as in, last night (technically this morning, i suppose). just assuming you're always going to have someone else who can do it is silly. sometimes there will be another person to do it. sometimes there won't. the caster who carries knock will be prepared, the one who doesn't will not be prepared. personally, i like to be prepared. others might prefer to not worry about the stuff they're missing.

secondly, you only need four spells total from that list... blur/web/resist are the standard choices early on, as i said. but you only need one of those other spells. fog cloud is pretty poor, and there are better cloud options at levels other than 5. melfs is nice, but likely not something you're going to bother with (earth savants get it free, most other savants won't have a strong enhancement line for it although it is definitely possible). scorching ray is nice, but again, fire is an uncommon secondary damage type. but at least it doesn't come free with fire savant, so fire savants will probably know it. electric loop isn't bad or anything, and air is a fairly common savant type, and electric is a fairly common secondary damage type... but it's main appeal to air savant is that it's cheap. it's a great SLA, but you're not likely to use it as a primary damaging spell, and you're not likely to use it as a primary CC spell, unless you're getting the huge discount it comes with as an SLA. *especially* if you don't have anything to reduce the cost of heighten.

for a sorcerer leveling up, you won't find a much better single-target nuke than scorching ray, which imo is the only one i might have considered holding onto over knock. once you're up there, though, there are simply much better choices at higher levels (especially now that you can get SLAs to spam).

knock is not a bad choice for a sorcerer. i could understand if there's something else you really want to get, but it's a good spell to carry for those times when you need it.

edit: oh, and of those priceless spells you list... only one is in competition with knock. most of the rest could honestly be replaced by a sufficiently large stockpile of high level clickies, and for soloing melees often air i imagine...

[Bargol]

What I don't understand is why do we need a lock pick in the shroud anyway? I mean this raid has been out forever. There are tons of solvers and solver patterns where you don't need an outside program.

If you happen to be in a group and have no way to open a door and someone is stuck on the puzzle most of the time its easy to walk them through a solution.....but really why can't we all solve our own puzzles?

Beyond this rogues are good.....let more then one in your group.

CC level 15 knock wands and knock scrolls.....if you can't do it with them really should just bring a friendly rogue with you.

[Ridag]

What I don't understand is why do we need a lock pick in the shroud anyway? I mean this raid has been out forever. There are tons of solvers and solver patterns where you don't need an outside program.

If you happen to be in a group and have no way to open a door and someone is stuck on the puzzle most of the time its easy to walk them through a solution.....but really why can't we all solve our own puzzles?

Beyond this rogues are good.....let more then one in your group.

CC level 15 knock wands and knock scrolls.....if you can't do it with them really should just bring a friendly rogue with you.

In some cases there will be a puzzle that no one gets ported into, so someone has to have the capability of opening the door.

Level 2 spells are pretty easy to slot: Resists, Web, Knock and one slot for whatever you want. Blur is not a mandatory spell to carry by any means, so long as you are prepared to displace party members when necessary. All the good damage spells of this level are available as SLAs for whatever Savant type you are, and they really aren't good enough on their own to slot, so I don't know what the big deal is.

[Gkar]

Knock isn't needed. You should have a rogue or a wiz that can do this..

What party in their right mind waits around for a "perfect group"? It's highly likely that in a shroud run you could have no rogues or wizards. And if you are doing an ev6, do you really want to wait for a rogue or wiz to happen to join before you start clearing v5?

[knightgf]

Meh, to be honest, knock isn't absolutely needed, as stated before. Yes, if you have a spare level 2 slot, it would most absolutely be nice to slot it in, especially if you don't see rogues around much in your parties. However, some things have a lock DC of one(Or at least, so low that a level 10 knock scroll that rolls a roll can still unlock it), and two things that come to mind for that is the chests in Bastion of Power and the other end chest in enter the kobold.

And yes, I can confirm that you can unlock the shroud doors with a CL 15 wand; however, I would only try using it if nobody is around to unlock it right away, because it will take a few tries. I think the DC for the lock is maybe 33ish or so.

[skunk]

okay, first off, i've run shroud as the only caster in the group. recently. as in, last night (technically this morning, i suppose). just assuming you're always going to have someone else who can do it is silly. sometimes there will be another person to do it. sometimes there won't. the caster who carries knock will be prepared, the one who doesn't will not be prepared. personally, i like to be prepared. others might prefer to not worry about the stuff they're missing.

secondly, you only need four spells total from that list... blur/web/resist are the standard choices early on, as i said. but you only need one of those other spells. fog cloud is pretty poor, and there are better cloud options at levels other than 5. melfs is nice, but likely not something you're going to bother with (earth savants get it free, most other savants won't have a strong enhancement line for it although it is definitely possible). scorching ray is nice, but again, fire is an uncommon secondary damage type. but at least it doesn't come free with fire savant, so fire savants will probably know it. electric loop isn't bad or anything, and air is a fairly common savant type, and electric is a fairly common secondary damage type... but it's main appeal to air savant is that it's cheap. it's a great SLA, but you're not likely to use it as a primary damaging spell, and you're not likely to use it as a primary CC spell, unless you're getting the huge discount it comes with as an SLA. *especially* if you don't have anything to reduce the cost of heighten.

for a sorcerer leveling up, you won't find a much better single-target nuke than scorching ray, which imo is the only one i might have considered holding onto over knock. once you're up there, though, there are simply much better choices at higher levels (especially now that you can get SLAs to spam).

knock is not a bad choice for a sorcerer. i could understand if there's something else you really want to get, but it's a good spell to carry for those times when you need it.

edit: oh, and of those priceless spells you list... only one is in competition with knock. most of the rest could honestly be replaced by a sufficiently large stockpile of high level clickies, and for soloing melees often air i imagine...

Knock = an ok situational spell with vary little upside.

Level 2 actually has many woth it spells. Blur, very good, in most situations. fog cloud 20% miss chance, good in places (cloudkill takes over it later). Invisibility (great spell, but can be scrolled.) Knock marginal spell, very limited use, other classes do this already). Melfs, Great spell, dot, useful even in epic.)) Resist Energy, very useful especially when you know what traps your running into), Scorching Ray, very useful, even at high level. Web, Staple of most sorcs even in epics.

So, lets see, Web, Blur, Leaves 2 spots open. Resist Energy is the best next choice. Has the most use per quest. That leaves one spot. Scorching ray or Melfs are then the best choices. depends on your spec, if your air or earth take scorching, if your water or fire take Melfs.

There is your breakdown. Knock = waste of a spell in 4/5th of all content.

What party in their right mind waits around for a "perfect group"? It's highly likely that in a shroud run you could have no rogues or wizards. And if you are doing an ev6, do you really want to wait for a rogue or wiz to happen to join before you start clearing v5?

well, i'll tell you, you wait for someone to unlock the doors and a healer don't you .

So i guess smart people who want completions. 2 healers, the rest are all optional, just need 1 person to open a door or so, if there is an issue. Wizards, rogues, some bards, and many other classes with rogue splashes.

[soulaeon]

I have used fog cloud at times in some situations, Mostly when soloing things. I did trade it out, but it had its uses prior to level 20.

Who needs a rogue to open them all? Your saying that in a 12 man shroud, nobody but the sorc knows how to do the puzzle?

that seems to be pretty silly. And i have only once seen the cube show up!

Knock is not priceless. Priceless is GH, Haste, Rage. Blur, Displacement.

Knock still isn't needed. I gave a good list of spells better then knock (unless your soloing).

*arent you the same guy, that was arguing that a drow sorc was better then a drow wiz because drow sorcs got +2 chr, and someone else had to point out, that drow get +2 int also? )

What is silly, is that you have the audacity to imply that my mistake with somethng totally different has anything to do with a choice of spell selection. This is the kind of argument people make when they really have no good responses, and I will let the rest of the replies speak for me.

okay, first off, i've run shroud as the only caster in the group. recently. as in, last night (technically this morning, i suppose). just assuming you're always going to have someone else who can do it is silly. sometimes there will be another person to do it. sometimes there won't. the caster who carries knock will be prepared, the one who doesn't will not be prepared. personally, i like to be prepared. others might prefer to not worry about the stuff they're missing.

This ^

What party in their right mind waits around for a "perfect group"? It's highly likely that in a shroud run you could have no rogues or wizards. And if you are doing an ev6, do you really want to wait for a rogue or wiz to happen to join before you start clearing v5?

And this ^

[Jaid314]

So, lets see, Web, Blur, Leaves 2 spots open. Resist Energy is the best next choice. Has the most use per quest. That leaves one spot. Scorching ray or Melfs are then the best choices. depends on your spec, if your air or earth take scorching, if your water or fire take Melfs.

There is your breakdown. Knock = waste of a spell in 4/5th of all content.

web, blur, and resist energy i agree with (actually, i put resist energy first, but anyways....)

as for your last slot, i don't agree with your assessment at all. scorching ray and melfs are certainly reasonable choices. but neither is a guaranteed awesome choice. scorching ray deals fire damage, which many mobs are immune to. it isn't entirely bad, but the majority of the time when you want a single-target DPS spell, it's for mobs that are going to be immune to it... most raid bosses, most liches (but not sor'jek in either case), and most challenging fights in general. it's not bad, it is definitely a very powerful spell against some targets... and it's completely useless in a large portion of challenging content. it is especially useless if you haven't spec'd for fire damage.

acid arrow is, again, not a bad spell... for someone who has specialised fully into the acid damage line. ie, a group that consists of earth savants, and not an awful lot of other people.

the most common savant, as far as i can tell, is water or air, with a secondary specialisation in whichever of those two they didn't take, and if they take another line at all it's usually force, and usually only a handful of points. for the rare earth or fire savant, those spells may be worthwhile... for mine, i find that i am never facing a boss thinking "oh no, what damage spell can i cast on this mob?" because i have better options at other levels that deal lots of damage and keep me busy enough that rotating a level 2 spell into the mix is not needed or wanted.

either spell could be a viable option. neither is an automatic better choice in the long run, or even in the short run. knock is at least as valid an option, and for many people who like the convenience, is probably a better one. does your sorcerer absolutely have to have knock? nope. i wouldn't throw anyone out of a raid for not having it, or anything like that. but i would definitely encourage considering it as an option...

[Astraghal]

What I don't understand is why do we need a lock pick in the shroud anyway? I mean this raid has been out forever. There are tons of solvers and solver patterns where you don't need an outside program.

If you happen to be in a group and have no way to open a door and someone is stuck on the puzzle most of the time its easy to walk them through a solution.....but really why can't we all solve our own puzzles?

Beyond this rogues are good.....let more then one in your group.

CC level 15 knock wands and knock scrolls.....if you can't do it with them really should just bring a friendly rogue with you.

I know, but some people INSIST on playing in full screen mode.

Edit: I'm no expert on casters, but I never expect a Sorcerer to carry Blur. Displacement on the guy with aggro at the appropriate time is entirely sufficient. Plus there are a lot of hard Blur items in the game now.