My First TR: Cleric. Critiques appreciated

[Littlebrother]

So I've done a little homework but this is where i plan to get actual feedback. Please give it to me straight, but use a little KY if you could...

The hope for this build is a somewhat solo-able build at lower levels, a healer you can depend on, and a party member that will try to prevent healing with some solid crowd control.

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Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 292
Spell Points: 1536 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 6
Will: 21

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             12                    14
Dexterity             8                    10
Constitution         14                    18
Intelligence         10                    12
Wisdom               18                    28
Charisma             14                    18

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               0                     9
Bluff                 2                     4
Concentration         6                    28
Diplomacy             2                     6
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle                2                     4
Heal                  4                    12
Hide                 -1                     0
Intimidate            2                     4
Jump                  1                    10
Listen                4                     9
Move Silently        -1                     0
Open Lock            n/a                    n/a
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     1
Search                0                     1
Spot                  4                     9
Swim                  1                     2
Tumble                0                     1
Use Magic Device      4                    15

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I


Level 2 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I


Level 4 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I


Level 5 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I


Level 7 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I


Level 8 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II


Level 10 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration II


Level 11 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Acolyte of Divine Secrets
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II


Level 13 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Wisdom I


Level 14 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning III


Level 16 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting III


Level 17 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting II


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting IV


Level 19 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting III


Level 20 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Intervention
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Smiting III

[Woody00]

I'd drop empower or maximize for extend till you get to the higher levels then use the free swap to change back if you dont want it for the short buffs you have( Divine Power, Divine Favor, Prayer, ect).

[Luckyjack1983]

<--Haarv I like it, looks good, though honestly, I'm not really a cleric so I'm not the best judge, it does look solid.

[Woody00]

<--Haarv I like it, looks good, though honestly, I'm not really a cleric so I'm not the best judge, it does look solid.

Making a cleric to heal and CC is not hard. Max wis, decent cha and the rest in con and you're set. The extend is handy in the lower lvls mainly for resist as that spell will mitigate allot of damage your party will receive during quests. And frankly I'd rather spend the extra SP on an extended resist than the constant mana expenditure or wand usage of healing those who have not yet learned to carry resist pots or specific robes/cloaks with perma resists on them. And like someone said above you can just swap out when you get to where you main buffs are 10+ mins or keep it if you like the extended melee buffs it offers.

[theKman]

Not an expert, but do run a Lvl 20 fvs healer/caster

This looks pretty good to me, and agree, take extend early instead of maximize then swap out later.

[SirValentine]

So I've done a little homework but this is where i plan to get actual feedback. Please give it to me straight, but use a little KY if you could...

The hope for this build is a somewhat solo-able build at lower levels, a healer you can depend on, and a party member that will try to prevent healing with some solid crowd control.

This looks pretty solid. There's just one glaring omission to my eyes: Heighten Spell. You might have to drop Greater Spell Penetration for it.

Also, not a big deal, but I'd probably swap two points from Cha to Str for better solo melee at low levels. That's merely personal taste, though, no biggie either way.

[-Zyxas-]

Divine Healing -> Divine Vitality.
SP heal is almost exclusive, HP heals are all over and Divine Healing isn't that strong.
That's all I have

[Littlebrother]

Divine Healing -> Divine Vitality.
SP heal is almost exclusive, HP heals are all over and Divine Healing isn't that strong.
That's all I have

I took out the divine healing... I think i jsut liked the novelty of it, and thinking back now I don't really ever see it used much when i'm running one of my other toons. I think if it were more powerful it would be a better trick, but I agree, not that useful once your tank gets past lvl 4.

[SirValentine]

So I've done a little homework but this is where i plan to get actual feedback. Please give it to me straight, but use a little KY if you could...

Oh, I just looked a little more closely at your enhancements.

You've spent a lot of AP on the Smiting lines, which isn't necessarily bad, but you're missing some important stuff! Get Life Magic up to Tier 4, and where's your Improved Empower Healing Line? Consider dropping most or all of the Smiting critical lines (which are much less efficient than the straight damage improvement line anyway) to get the full Life Magic and Improved Empower Healing lines.

[Littlebrother]

Oh, I just looked a little more closely at your enhancements.

You've spent a lot of AP on the Smiting lines, which isn't necessarily bad, but you're missing some important stuff! Get Life Magic up to Tier 4, and where's your Improved Empower Healing Line? Consider dropping most or all of the Smiting critical lines (which are much less efficient than the straight damage improvement line anyway) to get the full Life Magic and Improved Empower Healing lines.

So, I've swapped out the Smiting Crit Lines for the Imp Emp Heal line, and bumped the Life Magic from II to III.

What I've noticed on my FvS is that with all the different multipliers on if i use a Heal spell then i'm actually wasting SP by healing a dude for 600hp when they only have 400... Although, I know the whole idea is that I can cast a Mass Cure Serious Wounds and heal everyone for a ton and use less SP (and time), so I'm going with the suggestion... I just can't find another 4AP for lvl IV.

What do you think is more valuable, the Life Magic, or the Imp Emp Heal? Do the IEH stack with each other (i.e., at lvl III am i getting 7 points less, or only 4)? B/c at 12 AP, that's a pretty costly line if it's only saving me 4sp per throw... I mean, I could get my wand and scroll mastery all the way up to 55% for only 7 more AP and then i wouldn't have to think about SP as much. Again, i also realize that none of the Feat multipliers would apply...

I also really like the idea of starting with Extend and then swapping out later. I really don't foresee me trying to get this guy to use the Divine Favor and Divine Power and jumping into combat... I don't really like battle clerics. I do jump into the mosh-pit with my FvS now, but it's not to do damage, it's just so i can throw buffs and heals and let auto attack plink away at the baddies for 30pts here, 40pts there.

I threw in Heighten (over GSP), because I think you're right: over-all it will add more spell penetration to spells than the +2 from greater.

Keep the feedback coming... I kinda just stumbled through my first life finding out lots of things as I went, I'd like to be able to minimize the need for a Lesser Resurection this next time through!

[SirValentine]

So, I've swapped out the Smiting Crit Lines for the Imp Emp Heal line, and bumped the Life Magic from II to III.

What I've noticed on my FvS is that with all the different multipliers on if i use a Heal spell then i'm actually wasting SP by healing a dude for 600hp when they only have 400... Although, I know the whole idea is that I can cast a Mass Cure Serious Wounds and heal everyone for a ton and use less SP (and time), so I'm going with the suggestion... I just can't find another 4AP for lvl IV.

You mean on a crit Heal? How does a FvS break 600 on a non-crit Heal? Even with an Eardweller, by my math the best you could do would be 540 before healing amp, or only 427 with a static Superior Devotion/Potency.
Even with the Radiant Servant boost, a static Heal only hits for 498, 564 with Superior Ardor, or 630 with the Eardweller.

Oh, and if I'm running around with 500 HP, the melees better have more than that! 600 is common, some will have 800. Oh, and the dang WF who run around with little healing amp (not all of them, I know, but there are a few who don't get it), they won't be getting overhealed regardless.

What do you think is more valuable, the Life Magic, or the Imp Emp Heal? Do the IEH stack with each other (i.e., at lvl III am i getting 7 points less, or only 4)? B/c at 12 AP, that's a pretty costly line if it's only saving me 4sp per throw... I mean, I could get my wand and scroll mastery all the way up to 55% for only 7 more AP and then i wouldn't have to think about SP as much. Again, i also realize that none of the Feat multipliers would apply...

If I had to choose, the Life Magic is more important. Max it.

Level 3 of Imp Emp Heal brings the total reduction to 4, so the feat costs 6 extra instead of 10. I don't regret taking the Imp Emp Heal line, as I'm getting +75% to all my healing for, with an Imp Emp Heal II item, only 4 extra SP. But if you can't fit it in, you can't fit it in.

I consider my character an offensive caster, but I cast heals far more often than I cast an offensive spell that fizzles due to spell resistance. I found the spell penetration line to be too expensive to be worth more than just the lowest tier for me.

As for Wand and Scroll, taking 1 tier is a no-brainer, +25% for 1 AP. Beyond that, I'm not sure the smaller increases are worth the higher costs.

I threw in Heighten (over GSP), because I think you're right: over-all it will add more spell penetration to spells than the +2 from greater.

...

I'm not sure if you misunderstand how those things work, or you've just stated it very badly. I'm not saying you don't understand, but I've run into many others who don't understand this, so don't take this as in insult to your intelligence if I go into detail on something you're already clear on, because other people reading this thread might not be clear.

All monsters get a saving throw against your DC. Your DC is affected by your Wisdom bonus, Spell Focus feats and items, and either the spells base level or, if you have Heighten enabled, the level of the highest spell you can cast. For example, without special buffs, for my Greater Command spell, the DC is 10 (base) + 9 (Heighten) + 15 (Wis bonus) + 2 (item bonus) = 36. Without Heighten, it would only be 32.

Spell Penetration only relates to Spell Resistance. Only select monsters have Spell Resistance.
Against these certain monsters you make a Spell Penetration roll against their Spell Resistance. Your spell penetration roll is affected by your class level, plus any applicable spell penetration feats, enhancements, and items. Also, even against monsters with it, Spell Resistance does not apply to direct damage from spells, like Blade Barrier.

These two rolls are completely separate, and what helps one does not help the other. Since ALL enemies get a save against your DC, I see it as more important. Heighten would raise the DC of your Greater Command spell by 4, your Blade Barrier or Banish by 3, your Destruction by 2, your Sound Burst by 7! Greater Spell Penetration just gives 2 more on a totally separate roll that only applies to certain enemies for non-damaging spells, and which you would already have a +24 on. (20 from levels, 2 from Spell Penetration feat, and 2 from enhancements you've picked.) 2 more still isn't near enough for, say, Epic Drow, and you'll already have enough to penetrate SR most of the time in Normal Amrath or the SubT, say.

[Littlebrother]

I'm not sure if you misunderstand how those things work, or you've just stated it very badly. I'm not saying you don't understand, but I've run into many others who don't understand this, so don't take this as in insult to your intelligence if I go into detail on something you're already clear on, because other people reading this thread might not be clear.

You nailed it. I'm not too proud to admit that I DON'T really understand the difference b/w the two, but now I do. Or at least better. I opened up this thread so that i could gain knowledge exactly like this. I don't take it as an insult to my INT, because after reading this i think i got a boost to my WIS.

With the entire Imp Emp Heal line, this is something i really hadn't had to think of as much with my FvS, because he's sitting on 2824 SP. I already know that I'll be getting 300 sp less from my GS goggles, but what else do i have to look forward to in regards to a Cleric's sp?

I don't raelly know much about the healing aura or bursts, but knowing that the Life Magic will effect those as well (and if I'm not mistaken they are based on turn dead checks, not sp) then I'll trade out the Imp Emp Heal III for life magic IV and take the extra 2 AP and sink them into something else...

I read something somewhere that said the difference b/w DV lvl I and III is pretty slight? thoughts? with the extra 2 AP i could bump up to DV II. OR I could ditch my last point in prayer of incredible smite and have 3AP to sink into another Extra Turn Dead... I'll post where i'm at now so it's not all hypotheticals.

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Immortalix Wade
Level 20 True Neutral Human Male
(20 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 292
Spell Points: 1536 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 6
Will: 21

                 Feat/Enhancement
Abilities         Modified Stats
(34 Point)          (Level 20)
Strength                14
Dexterity               10
Constitution            18
Intelligence            12
Wisdom                  28
Charisma                18

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Empower Spell
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Favored Soul
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I


Level 2 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Wand and Scroll Mastery I


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I


Level 4 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I


Level 5 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I


Level 7 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I


Level 8 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom II


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II


Level 10 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration II


Level 11 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma I


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Acolyte of Divine Secrets
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Cleric Charisma II


Level 13 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Wisdom I


Level 14 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting II
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning II


Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Smiting I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III


Level 16 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting III


Level 17 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Empower Healing II


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration
Enhancement: Cleric Smiting IV


Level 19 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV


Level 20 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Intervention

[SirValentine]

With the entire Imp Emp Heal line, this is something i really hadn't had to think of as much with my FvS, because he's sitting on 2824 SP. I already know that I'll be getting 300 sp less from my GS goggles, but what else do i have to look forward to in regards to a Cleric's sp?

I don't raelly know much about the healing aura or bursts, but knowing that the Life Magic will effect those as well (and if I'm not mistaken they are based on turn dead checks, not sp) then I'll trade out the Imp Emp Heal III for life magic IV and take the extra 2 AP and sink them into something else...

With max Wisdom and good gear (you're a TR, so I'm expecting you have some resources or know how to get them), you should be able to reach the 1900-2000 range easily enough. My Cleric currently has 2100, but only until my next enhancment reset. I had picked up several tiers of Energy of the Zealot recently, but it's seemed rather wasted to me, and since U9 I've been using Divine Punishment a fair bit, so I'll be picking up some more of the Smiting line instead.

However: Learn to love your healing bursts & aura! Maybe not so much for raid-healing, but they will save you so much SP during most 6-man quests you might not notice the smaller blue bar.

And at lower levels, with your metamagic feats active, your bursts will completely obliterate undead.

I read something somewhere that said the difference b/w DV lvl I and III is pretty slight? thoughts? with the extra 2 AP i could bump up to DV II. OR I could ditch my last point in prayer of incredible smite and have 3AP to sink into another Extra Turn Dead... I'll post where i'm at now so it's not all hypotheticals.

Well, the good thing about enhancements is, once you've covered your basics, you're free to play with them. You can change them again every 3 days.

I have DV I, because I need SOMETHING as my Radiant Servant pre-req, but I seldom use it. For a while I had Divine Might swapped in instead, and it got used even less, because when I might want to use DM was the same times I most needed those turns for healing. At least with DV, I can put leftover turns to good use before shrining, but that's not worth more than 1 tier.

[theKman]

IMO take Life Magic to MAX tier.
At higher levels you will be healing melees with over 600HP
and a Mass Cure mod with full life tier will be far more effective.

[tekkentroop]

Life Magic IV is a must. It doesnt only boost your heals, but also your more mana-efficient means of healing like RS Aura, Bursts, and mass cure light/moderate (I only have sup potency VI so mcmw heals for more than mcsw).

I couldnt fit in the improved empower healing route into my build since Im playing a dwarf with a lot of racial enhancements (toughness IV, Axe damage II). If I can skip cleric wis III as I get odd wis, I might go back to the first tier. But actually, I think tier II and III arent worth it, for the 10 AP you could get SP enhancements which allow for the same number of heals and are more flexible.

[GreatOwl]

Got little experience with Clerics, mine is only lvl7 so far, so ... yeah. However this are my impressions:

Stats look good, max Wis, good Con (after the use of +3 tome, grats on the pull btw ), a 12 Str is not super, but it will be enough at low levels especially with good gear.
I'm not too sure I would spend the extra points into Cha though. Reflex saves are pretty weak on a cleric and AOEs rough. I would consider starting with a higher Dex on the expense of some Cha. I know, Cha will determine your number of turns, but don't forget that with Radiant Servant those regenerate.

Feat wise, I concur with the rest, get Extend for low lvls and use the free feat exchange once u get around lvl 15 (15, and later 20 minutes buffs will last long enough and you will save some mana too).
Heighten is a nice feat to have to keep using spells like Greater comand, Cometfall, BB at later lvls. Given you get +1 Spell Pen with your passive past life feat you could take it instead of Greater Spell Pen. Or, how good is the active past life feat? Frankly it's description doesn't sound too great to me but I have no idea. It would be worth it to ask someone who has actually used it; perhaps you might take Heighten in place of that one instead.
I would also suggest taking Toughness at lvl1, Acolyte of Divine Secrets (if u decide to take it) at lvl3 (something tells me it's more useful at low lvls), and one of Maximize/Empower at lvl 12. You will not use all those metas at low lvls anyway, they are too mana intensive.

Enhancement are too easy to reset to really worry about (just ask my wizard lol), but yeah I would drop the smiting stuff and get the Life Magic/ Prayer of Life stuff instead. Also, for low levels the Follower of Sovereign Host line is nice to gain proficiency with longswords (since u are planning on soloing a bit, as you should!)

Lew

[Littlebrother]

Stats ... I would consider starting with a higher Dex on the expense of some Cha. I know, Cha will determine your number of turns, but don't forget that with Radiant Servant those regenerate.

Again, something I didn't know... I guess i don't need as many turns as i have been planning on. How quickly do they regenerate?

Feat ... I would also suggest taking Toughness at lvl1, Acolyte of Divine Secrets (if u decide to take it) at lvl3 (something tells me it's more useful at low lvls)

I'm thinking that with the Smite boost the 'free' Avenging Light might be a useful little spell. I think it would be 7D8 at lvl 20 plus all the Smite increases, plus Empower and Maximize... Although i could be dead wrong about that.

Enhancement are too easy to reset to really worry about (just ask my wizard lol)
Lew

You're preaching to the choir!

[Satinavian]

I have found that after U9 i rarely use Maximise or Empower on healing spells anymore.

The base cost went down, so that the Metas decrease the SP-efficiency. And as Heals don't really benefit from them, i would consider giving one of them up. Not only for lower levels, but completely. Would keep Maximise for those Bossfights right after shrining and the occasional bladebarrier. But feats are rare.

[Fireball241]

I have found that after U9 i rarely use Maximise or Empower on healing spells anymore.

The base cost went down, so that the Metas decrease the SP-efficiency. And as Heals don't really benefit from them, i would consider giving one of them up. Not only for lower levels, but completely. Would keep Maximise for those Bossfights right after shrining and the occasional bladebarrier. But feats are rare.

With burst healing and the low costs... +1.

It is why my latest has divine might and a 15 chr. Took a 16 wis. Str15 and one fighter lvl. 18 wis is a big investment. U could bump up str.chr. with higher chr u can dm2 and still burst heal. Just one lvlup into chr for 16. Rest wis.

Biggest problem with burst is getting zergers to gather. So if they run to the next fight with low health cause they did not get my burst; they r the last to get healed if they live. I tell them ahead of time for non cmbat heals to gather. I think they will learn.

[SirValentine]

18 wis is a big investment.

18 starting Wis and all level-ups: big investement

Imploding the Epic mobs before the melees even get to them: Priceless