For Consideration - 12brd/6rog/2brb Warchanter II, Thief Acrobat

[REALb0r3d]

I know I'm missing out on level 5 spells (Don't think missing out on GH is worth the HP cost), and inspire courage +1 at 14 (making me slightly less desirable as the bard for the party).

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Level 20 True Neutral Half-Orc Male
(1 Fighter \ 7 Rogue \ 12 Bard) 
Hit Points: 256
Spell Points: 325 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 10
Reflex: 16
Will: 9

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             20                    26
Dexterity            15                    16
Constitution         15                    15
Intelligence          6                     8
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              6                     6

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    22
Bluff                -2                    -2
Concentration         4                    18
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device        2                    22
Haggle               -2                    -2
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate           -2                     2
Jump                  5                    13
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             5                     6
Perform              n/a                   14
Repair               -2                    -1
Search                2                    18
Spot                 -1                    -1
Swim                  5                     8
Tumble                3                     8
Use Magic Device      2                    21

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Bard)


Level 3 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 4 (Bard)


Level 5 (Bard)


Level 6 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 7 (Bard)


Level 8 (Bard)


Level 9 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 10 (Bard)


Level 11 (Bard)


Level 12 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Bard)


Level 14 (Rogue)


Level 15 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 17 (Rogue)


Level 18 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Rogue)


Level 20 (Rogue)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Bard Extra Song I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Attack II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Bravery III
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage I
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage II
Enhancement: Bard Inspired Damage III
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song I
Enhancement: Bard Lingering Song II
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter I
Enhancement: Bard Warchanter II
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack III
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude I
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude II
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Faster Sneaking I
Enhancement: Rogue Thief-Acrobat I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training I
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training II
Enhancement: Rogue Sneak Attack Training III
Enhancement: Improved Balance I
Enhancement: Improved Balance II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Bard Wand and Scroll Mastery I

[sly_1]

A couple things:

int 6? even after you gobble down an int tome, the question starts to become, what skills are you going to want, and what are you going to have to forego? Personally I'd say drop that str to 19 starting, depending on gear you can often wind up with the same final modifier. Take those extra points saved and pump int.

I mean, look at your final skill allocation. 15 umd? you won't even be able to nofail heal scrolls. 17 concentration? good luck casting anything in epic while taking any kind of significant damage. 12 balance isn't going to do all that much for you, and 14 perform will leave you with inadequate fascinate dc's for any serious epic content that you actually need perform for like evon6.

And no traps skills whatsoever? most people who let a bard/rogue into the party expect you to at least handle traps on norm/hard.

To me the real question is, what are you gaining from rogue 6 that is better than all the dozens of 16/2/2 builds?

4 rogue lvls nets you +2d6 additional sneak attack damage and sneak training II, so thats an average of 10 damage per blow, situationally available when you can actually get sneak attacks (ie trash mobs without fort/not undead, ooze, you don't have aggro, etc). with assassin at rogue 6 we are at 13.5.

For that 10 - 13.5 dmg bump you are giving up: lvl 5 and 6 bard spells: GH at 5 and ottos irresistible at 6 are your 2 main losses here. You also lose quite a fair amount of sp, especially with a meager base 6 cha. Longer quests you won't be able to maintain haste/displacement/rage unless you have both a shroud sp item and a bauble (or espell storing ring).

you also lose out on 1 lingering song, 1 inspired attack, and a +1 bump to both ab and damage from not getting to bard 14.

If you think all that is worth up to 13.5 dmg from time to time, but +0 damage when you have aggro or are facing an sa immune mob, go for it.

One final thing about barb in this build: you can't cast spells or use scrolls while raging, for this reason fighter 2 instead is a reasonable substitute. Both have pro's and cons, the main thing I personally like about barb is the faster run speed. But hard to argue against 2 free feats with fighter 2 at the cost of a short duration 1x per day rage (which is a tough sell if you need to cast spells) and 4 hp. By the look you are going 2wf by that 15 starting dex, if so 2 fighter will feed that otherwise feat starved build (esp when you consider you need weap focus for warchanter).

[Jahmin]

REALLY bad split. Bard13 is FAR superior to Bard12.

[REALb0r3d]

Posted wrong level of build, level 20 up now.
Other things...
Added in levels of search and disarm, had to eat a tome for that, dropped bluff.
I clearly am not concerned about CC, just enough levels to sing songs.
I have to max STR or PA and all the enhancements are for nothing since I won't land any hits.
I have 2AP that is unslotted right now. (should probably use it for lingering songII)


@sly
Rog 6 gets me... *points to thread title* Dex bonus to SA and competence bonus to attack speed.
Rog 7 gets me +1d6 SA.

@Jahmin
The only thing I'd miss from 13 brd is inspired attackIII enhancement and level 5 spells.

[REALb0r3d]

I'm going to need extend for it to be worth making this I think.
Considering 12brd/7rog/1fgt and 12brd/6rog/2fgt now. TOMORROW!

[sly_1]

Posted wrong level of build, level 20 up now.
Other things...
Added in levels of search and disarm, had to eat a tome for that, dropped bluff.
I clearly am not concerned about CC, just enough levels to sing songs.
I have to max STR or PA and all the enhancements are for nothing since I won't land any hits.
I have 2AP that is unslotted right now. (should probably use it for lingering songII)


@sly
Rog 6 gets me... *points to thread title* Dex bonus to SA and competence bonus to attack speed.
Rog 7 gets me +1d6 SA.

@Jahmin
The only thing I'd miss from 13 brd is inspired attackIII enhancement and level 5 spells.

ok, you changed it quite a bit from when I posted so I can see now where you are headed with it.

on the issue of str... It doesn't matter what str you start with, but what you end with. So lets assume some reasonable attainable gear:

starting str of 19:
+5 levelups
+2 tome
+1 exceptional
+2 exceptional
+7 item
+2 enhancement

= 38

if you start with 20 str, you gain +1 = 39 str, which nets you absolutely 0 ab and 0 additional damage. you only gain bonuses on even ending stats.

So again, 19 str, given what we can assume is reasonably easy to obtain gear, will often wind you up in the same final place as 20 str, but free up a lot of stat points to use at character creation to make a more versatile toon. If you can come up with actual endgame tomes and items that you think will land you on an even # starting with 20 go for it, but you gain a LOT of versatility with more int and might not lose a drop of damage or ab.

Same deal with dex: if you end with 16 dex, but have say, items that add up to an odd number enhancing that dex, end of the day it's the same benefit as if you had started at character creation 1 point lower (unless you need a certain base dex to qualify for a feat)

On skillpoints, I'd personally drop balance low enough to completely max concentration and umd.

Overall it looks like a fun toon. Loses a fair bit of bab in all that multiclassing -5 bab total) and with pa on so might have a few issues in epics ab wise, but only vs a few of the higher ac bosses. Trash and lower ac bosses you'll be fine.

[Valindria]

I'd say a better split would be 14/6 because your IC will get another 1/1 at 14. Or go 12/8 Rogue/Bard Acro II WC I. That would probably be better in your case.

When do you plan on being able to cast bard spells? Starting with 6 CHA is going to hurt.

Overall I would say it is hard to make a good Acrobard. They need too many stats and a good split is hard to find. QStaffs generally suck 1d6x2(19-20). You end up giving up too much Rogue or giving up too much bard. Personally I do not like the posted build at all. Good luck.

[Teharahma]

ok, you changed it quite a bit from when I posted so I can see now where you are headed with it.

on the issue of str... It doesn't matter what str you start with, but what you end with. So lets assume some reasonable attainable gear:

starting str of 19:
+5 levelups
+2 tome
+1 exceptional
+2 exceptional
+7 item
+2 enhancement

= 38

if you start with 20 str, you gain +1 = 39 str, which nets you absolutely 0 ab and 0 additional damage. you only gain bonuses on even ending stats.

So again, 19 str, given what we can assume is reasonably easy to obtain gear, will often wind you up in the same final place as 20 str, but free up a lot of stat points to use at character creation to make a more versatile toon. If you can come up with actual endgame tomes and items that you think will land you on an even # starting with 20 go for it, but you gain a LOT of versatility with more int and might not lose a drop of damage or ab.

Same deal with dex: if you end with 16 dex, but have say, items that add up to an odd number enhancing that dex, end of the day it's the same benefit as if you had started at character creation 1 point lower (unless you need a certain base dex to qualify for a feat)

On skillpoints, I'd personally drop balance low enough to completely max concentration and umd.

Overall it looks like a fun toon. Loses a fair bit of bab in all that multiclassing -5 bab total) and with pa on so might have a few issues in epics ab wise, but only vs a few of the higher ac bosses. Trash and lower ac bosses you'll be fine.

How bout a +3 tome.
If you're giving out advice then don't be an idiot and give bogus advice.

[REALb0r3d]

Thanks Teh... he did kinda make my point for me by pointing out 15 BAB, but I'll be using divine power to make up the difference most times.

Since I needed extend for buffs, switched out 2 barb for 1 fgt 7 rog.

[unbongwah]

It would help if you specified your build goals. I'm inferring you want a staff-wielding bard, which makes your high base DEX puzzling; is it for the extra SA dmg? You're also missing out on a lot of what makes other staff builds shine, like the extra SA & +10% atk speed from Acrobat II, the stances from monk, etc. I'm willing to bet you'd do better DPS as, say, a falchion-wielding Assassin bard than with staves, despite the +10% atk speed from Acrobat.

There there are other issues, like dump-stating CHA will make spellcasting tough if you don't have the twink gear you need already.

[DaSawks]

I see a lot of good advise here and some that is not so good in the OP's eyes. He is looking to build a self buffing, staff weilding, Horc with good dps. The Bard levels are there for the buffs/song buffs. The Rogue is there to add to his DPS via SA and for the Acrobat PRE. The Barb was there to add Rage etc. The OP has made some adjustments to enhance the synergy of the build. Now the OP is looking at puting the final touches on the build. Bard/Rogue/FTR 12/7/1 looks like it will work.

My advice at this point would to look at your DEX points. With the TWF line DEX is not needed to be very high. There are other good reasons to have high DEX and the OP may have considered this. IMO I would put more into Charisma to take advantage of having a higher UMD to use higher level scrolls and wands to self buff. GH, Teleport, Displacement, etc, etc,.

[Qindark]

My advice at this point would to look at your DEX points. With the TWF line DEX is not needed to be very high. There are other good reasons to have high DEX and the OP may have considered this. IMO I would put more into Charisma to take advantage of having a higher UMD to use higher level scrolls and wands to self buff. GH, Teleport, Displacement, etc, etc,.

I think he's likely looking for the +dex damage to his SA with a q-staff from thief-acrobat.

[REALb0r3d]

I appreciate the feedback very much.

Really... the inspiration for this is...

"I have a Rahls', and this toon's next life is a barbarian... never rolled a bard. I can roll a new toon, go warchanter, get some songs, a little self healing, my own budget axer package, throw some thief acrobat in there."

Going to look into dropping some points from DEX to finish the build, and I think the feedback helped alot.

[sly_1]

How bout a +3 tome.
If you're giving out advice then don't be an idiot and give bogus advice.

I said "reasonably easy" items to acquire. +3 tomes are not reasonably easy to acquire (imo: even if you get one, no guarantee it's gonna be the stat you wanted)

But since we are in the realm of what if's, how bout my #'s above and a +4 tome? now we are right back to an even number again.

It is nowhere near "bogus advice" to state the fact that I will now state again:

It does not matter what your starting stat is, it only matters what your ending stat is. If you start with a 20 and end on an odd number, you would have been better served starting with a 19 to end on an even number with an identical bonus to ab and damage as the odd number 1 point higher.

The other part of my post that you conveniently ignore is I said hey, if you already have the tomes and gear banked to get to an even result starting at 20 and feel the sacrifice is worth it, then go for it. At the end of the day we are debating a *potential* +1 ab and +1 damage bump *if* you have the right gear/tomes, vs a guaranteed +3 build points available to spend by starting at 19 instead of 20 str.

Hell, even with a +3 tome to get to an even # in my example above, I'd still argue it would be worth it to drop all the way to 18 starting str to pick up 6 build points and shore up both the int and cha on the build so it can more easily umd heal scrolls. - 1 ab and -1 damage isn't game changing, but being able to self heal reliably with a 100% umd chance on heal scrolls is.

[Dirac]

I'd be interested in hearing how this is working for you. Do you find it fun? I'm contemplating the same idea: a bard/rogue Qstaff specialist.

[Teharahma]

I said "reasonably easy" items to acquire. +3 tomes are not reasonably easy to acquire (imo: even if you get one, no guarantee it's gonna be the stat you wanted)

But since we are in the realm of what if's, how bout my #'s above and a +4 tome? now we are right back to an even number again.

It is nowhere near "bogus advice" to state the fact that I will now state again:

It does not matter what your starting stat is, it only matters what your ending stat is. If you start with a 20 and end on an odd number, you would have been better served starting with a 19 to end on an even number with an identical bonus to ab and damage as the odd number 1 point higher.

The other part of my post that you conveniently ignore is I said hey, if you already have the tomes and gear banked to get to an even result starting at 20 and feel the sacrifice is worth it, then go for it. At the end of the day we are debating a *potential* +1 ab and +1 damage bump *if* you have the right gear/tomes, vs a guaranteed +3 build points available to spend by starting at 19 instead of 20 str.

Hell, even with a +3 tome to get to an even # in my example above, I'd still argue it would be worth it to drop all the way to 18 starting str to pick up 6 build points and shore up both the int and cha on the build so it can more easily umd heal scrolls. - 1 ab and -1 damage isn't game changing, but being able to self heal reliably with a 100% umd chance on heal scrolls is.

1 does not start with 19 STR because it would get him even at 20 with easy obtainable gear.
1 would start with 19 STR because even with all bonuses you would get uneven with 20.

@OP;
On a real note though.
Consider dropping the 1 Fighter and 1 Rogue, so you can have 14 bard levels, the spells and improved inspire courage make up for it in my opinion.

Just food for thought.