LitII or RadII for Acro?

[weedf16]

Hey all, I'm currently running a Horc 13rog/6ftr/1mk and am considering crafting a GS q-staff. As the post title says, I'm looking for input on LitII vs. RadII. I would like to be able to drop mobs faster when I lose SA by drawing aggro (which is often when swinging my stick like a jackrabbit on crack). It seems if I went with LitII it would up the damage over time, thus dropping the mob quicker. If I chose RadII, it would be to blind the mob thus regaining my SA. I'm leaning towards LitII because I could see it proc-ing often because of the crazy number of attacks per second, but I'm open to sage advice.

*please no comments on max dps, twf vs. thf, acro vs. assassin, q-staffs, religion, politics, or any other topics that will hi-jack my thread and not answer my question.

[junior_w]

I would choose to craft the LitII, because the RadII blindness effect only proc with critical hits.

[stille_nacht]

hmm, with qStaff its a bit muddled, but overall i would prooobably choose lit II first, but rad II is def still valuable.

(are there any other bludgeon weps with a better range?)

[drac317]

(are there any other bludgeon weps with a better range?)

Rhals might does have a x3 multiplier but only epic staffs have a 19-20 base threat

[drac317]

my first and only(atm) finished GS stick is radII

even though your only getting crits on 19-20 with imp crit you swing fast enough that blindness happens fairly often and the 4d6 light dmg is nice even when you cant blind something.

that being said i am working on finishing a litII and use sevral other sticks depending on the situation.

[NeutronStar]

my first and only(atm) finished GS stick is radII

even though your only getting crits on 19-20 with imp crit you swing fast enough that blindness happens fairly often and the 4d6 light dmg is nice even when you cant blind something.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a correct answer!

+1

[Diyon]

I'd go with the litII, especially if you're plan on getting hit and aggro and losing the SA. Then you get a RadII guard item. I find the radII guard works pretty well for these purposes, especially since a radII staff still won't compare to a couple of radII rapiers or scimitars even with the faster speed. For me its: I've got aggro they're hitting me, they get blinded; I don't have aggro, they don't get blinded and I still have SA.

So I'd say go with the LitII. RadII staff still isn't bad though.

And nice choice on staff build type. =P

[kernal42]

RadII, absolutely. Despite having a wimpy crit range, you'll get the blinding off often enough.
For levelling, the dps is only slightly behind a litII, which is more than made up for by the blinding.
At cap, LitII is certainly good, though you have competitive options in crafted items and the epic Souleater.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Diyon]

RadII, absolutely. Despite having a wimpy crit range, you'll get the blinding off often enough.
For levelling, the dps is only slightly behind a litII, which is more than made up for by the blinding.
At cap, LitII is certainly good, though you have competitive options in crafted items and the epic Souleater.

Cheers,
Kernal

I still think it would better off with a radII guard item in its place, but I can definitely agree with you about end game. Epic Souleater is awesome (other nice options: force or impact Rahl's, dreamspitter on trash devils, Some awesome stunning +10 weapons (I usually quickdraw swap it), Epic Staff of Natt Gan (if dex build, unless they make that nifty Dex OR Str change to it)).

[kernal42]

You can have a RadII guard *and* the RadII weapon if you like. The weapon will generally be more effective in any case: It has a 10% chance to blind, while the guard has a 15% chance per hit (according to wiki). Given that your attack rate is far higher than trash mobs', the qstaff will blind much more often than the guard would. Naturally, having both is even better.

Also, you do get SA on helpless foes still, so freezing ice and earthgrab guards are also nice.

Cheers,
Kernal

[Cardtrick]

For almost literally every other rogue build, I would say rad 2 first. But on a high strength horc kensai acrobat like yours (or mine), I'm pretty sure you'd be better off with a Lit 2. The reason is Rahl's Might and its x3 critical multiplier. A Rad2 is normally build as a rogue's trash weapon of choice, but for a deeply splashed acrobat, I'm pretty sure a Rahl's or Epic Souleater is almost always a better choice for the improved crit range.

On most rogues, sneak attack damage is half or more of the total damage, so a Rad2 is a real game changer. On a build like yours or mine, though, sneak attacks should be more like 1/3 or less of your damage. With a +5 sneak attack and all the sneak attack damage enhancements allowed by 13 rogue levels, my sneak damage is in the high 40s. My base damage is in the high 70s to low 80s, depending on buffs, with weapon bonus effects pushing it even higher (and of course, glancing blows add an additional 35 or so). Wielding a force burst (unsuppressed) Rahl's Might, critical hits are in the high 200s (pushed over 300 by sneak attack and glancing blow). Also worth noting that the improved base damage of the Rahl's (it's a 1d10 x3 base damage weapon) adds to glancing blow damage, although that's pretty minor.

Add to that the fact that Rahl's has Deception on it, which also gives sneak attacks. It doesn't proc as often as Radiance, but I'm guessing it's either a 2.5% or 5% rate -- 1/4 or 1/2 of Radiance on a quarterstaff with improved crit, which actually isn't that bad. And of course, improved destruction is nice if you're not hitting on a 2, although your build should be.

All in all, Rahl's is just as much a gamechanger for a staff build as a Rad2 is for most builds -- it can be swung with an acrobat's melee alacrity but has the crit profile and nearly the base damage of a greataxe, blinds sometimes, improve destructs, and can have force burst, which is resisted by virtually nothing.

That's not to say a Rad2 wouldn't be useful for you. It can break DR/good, which a Rahl's can't. In devil-heavy quests on higher than normal, that's a big deal. (Although I use an unsuppressed Dreamspitter in those situations, rather than a Rad2.) But I would say it can wait, especially since a Rahl's is so much easier to get. Better off making a Lit2 first, for true max-DPS on most things, or maybe even a Vac2 for epic insta-killing, and using a Rahl's as your trash weapon of choice. (Actually, a triple-pos might be an even better first choice -- it's single-shard and is great against undead, precisely the enemies Rahl's is poor against, and will be especially valuable if you decide to TR.)

[kernal42]

While I agree with your main points, Cardtrick, I disagree with your conclusion. I have three weapons for trash:
Epic Souleater (improved crit range, self-healing, good damage, epic trap the soul!)
RadII qstaff (holy/flaming burst/+4 AC)
Dreamspitter (upgraded)

I use the dreamspitter on devils, obviously. The eSouleater is in use against anything living, and the RadII is used against undead (often immune to lightning) or when I need mobs blinded (named boss, or for damage mitigation). With this setup, a LitII is really unnecessary, while the RadII is used 10-20% of the time, and very valuable when that happens.

Note that the eSouleater dps is almost as good as LitII dps, and it has a nice set of perks to boot.

-Kernal

[Cardtrick]

While I agree with your main points, Cardtrick, I disagree with your conclusion. I have three weapons for trash:
Epic Souleater (improved crit range, self-healing, good damage, epic trap the soul!)
RadII qstaff (holy/flaming burst/+4 AC)
Dreamspitter (upgraded)

I don't think you're disagreeing with me, really -- I just don't have an epic souleater yet, and I'm guessing it's a ways beyond the OP, too. I use a similar setup, though. You use your Epic Souleater for trash, I use my Rahl's. We both use an upgraded Dreamspitter for devils. You use your RadII for undead, I use my triple-pos (Greater Disruption is awesome post-U9).

Either way, we're agreed that Rad2 is not an ideal trash choice for acrobat rogues, the way it is for other builds, due to the quarterstaff's terrible crit profile and the fact that certain named quarterstaffs have better crit profiles - Rahl's Might and Epic Souleater (and epic staff of Nat Gann, but the dex to damage kills it for this build).

The ultimate end-game trash weapon is an Epic Souleater. Prior to that, I'd say a Rahl's Might or Lit2. All 3 of them are better choices for general trash enemies than a Rad2. Therefore, I don't think a Rad2 should be the next thing he crafts.

I did work out in Barrage once that my Rahl's is only slightly less DPS than a Lit2 would be, and that's ignoring the improved destruction and deception. I wouldn't be surprised if the epic souleater actually out-DPSed a Lit2, especially taking into account its chance to instant-kill. I'm pretty sure all 3 of them out-DPS a radiance staff for a 13 rogue build, even considering sneak attacks (especially since bluff now gives sneak attacks for a full 6 seconds each time you successfully use it, making Radiance even less necessary).

I only said Lit2 because those were the two options provided -- Rad2 or Lit2. Honestly, I think the better choice is not to make either one and just to save your larges for items or for other characters. Just make a cheap single-shard Triple-Pos weapon to use for undead (and as a portal-beater if you can't afford a holy/anarchic of smiting), get a nice banishing staff for elementals, a smiting staff for constructs, use an unsuppressed Dreamspitter on devils and Rahl's on everything else -- until you get your Epic Souleater.

[Diyon]

I think for the most part there is a lot of agreement here, and just some picking at details.

Personally I don't use either of the weapons in question, and don't really have plans to make either, at least no time soon.

I use:

Epic Souleater (general trash and bosses with DR as long as its no higher than 15)
Rahl's Might (Been using bleed, but taking a look at impact version is pretty sweet. Something to note is that you need all three improved crit feats for it to effect this weapon. On the impact you actually get the 19-20/x3 regardless)
Unsuppressed Dreamspitter (sometimes on devil trash)
Plans to make a triple positive for undead fighting.

Kernal- yes I agree, freezing ice guard and earthgrab are very nice for this sort of build if you plan on wading into to combat. I use both those and radII guard, and between that and my stunning rarely worry about losing much on SA.

[kernal42]

Rahl's Might (Been using bleed, but taking a look at impact version is pretty sweet. Something to note is that you need all three improved crit feats for it to effect this weapon. On the impact you actually get the 19-20/x3 regardless)

This is untrue; you need *any* of the three [melee] improved crit feats to affect Rahl's. Any qstaff build should have imp crit:blud already, so the impact Rahl's is the least useful of them. Force would be best, followed probably by shocking, unless you care about the puncturing effect from the bleed Rahl's.

-Kernal

[Jaid314]

This is untrue; you need *any* of the three [melee] improved crit feats to affect Rahl's.

this is likely not true...

in general, the improved critical feats last i heard are actually applied to weapons, not to damage type, and what you *actually* get with (for example) improved critical: bludgeoning is to double your threat range for a list of all the bludgeoning weapon types (as opposed to something that checks if the weapon you are using is dealing bludgeoning damage, then improving the threat range). if this is still the case (admittedly i haven't checked recently), given that rahl's might is a quarterstaff it most likely requires improved critical: bludgeoning.

that said, your main point of

Any qstaff build should have imp crit:blud already, so the impact Rahl's is the least useful of them. Force would be best, followed probably by shocking, unless you care about the puncturing effect from the bleed Rahl's.

-Kernal

is dead on. you shouldn't need the impact rahl's might.

and on a side note, i haven't experienced it myself (yet), but my initial guess would have reflected the general consensus i'm seeing in this thread for those who have the experience... there are so many special named quarterstaff options out there that are just phenomenal weapons (compared to regular ones) that greensteel simply isn't as needed. with most weapon types, it's hard to find something better than greensteel; with quarterstaffs, you've got those much stronger options, and you don't need to spend 24 larges to get them.

[Diyon]

this is likely not true...

in general, the improved critical feats last i heard are actually applied to weapons, not to damage type, and what you *actually* get with (for example) improved critical: bludgeoning is to double your threat range for a list of all the bludgeoning weapon types (as opposed to something that checks if the weapon you are using is dealing bludgeoning damage, then improving the threat range). if this is still the case (admittedly i haven't checked recently), given that rahl's might is a quarterstaff it most likely requires improved critical: bludgeoning.

that said, your main point of



is dead on. you shouldn't need the impact rahl's might.

and on a side note, i haven't experienced it myself (yet), but my initial guess would have reflected the general consensus i'm seeing in this thread for those who have the experience... there are so many special named quarterstaff options out there that are just phenomenal weapons (compared to regular ones) that greensteel simply isn't as needed. with most weapon types, it's hard to find something better than greensteel; with quarterstaffs, you've got those much stronger options, and you don't need to spend 24 larges to get them.

I stand corrected. Someone told me this and I looked directly at the weapon instead of the attack output on the inventory window when its equipped. I also didn't look at a non-Rahl's. >_>

I thought that that sounded wrong when I heard, a "even if it is, that's not how that feat should be working." And then I looked at it wrong. But ya, my intuition on that was right after all. Thanks for making me look into again, this time properly.

[kernal42]

in general, the improved critical feats last i heard are actually applied to weapons, not to damage type, and what you *actually* get with (for example) improved critical: bludgeoning is to double your threat range for a list of all the bludgeoning weapon types (as opposed to something that checks if the weapon you are using is dealing bludgeoning damage, then improving the threat range). if this is still the case (admittedly i haven't checked recently), given that rahl's might is a quarterstaff it most likely requires improved critical: bludgeoning.

I tested this today; you are correct. Despite the fact that the weapon is blud, pierce, and slash, only imp crit: Blud applies.

-Kernal

[Rog]

rad 2 rapier for any rogue is a must have item free backstab damage

[camels]

rad 2 rapier for any rogue is a must have item free backstab damage

and what has this to do with a acrobat? oh yeah, nothing.

i made a rad II for my rog 17/monk 3.

i love the my rad II and it is a great weapon for trash.
when using it and my rad guard on my DT it really shines.

plus I think when/if you TR you will want a rad II during your lvling
if you are going to uber gear your acrobat out you are going to want the epic souleater.
and you will probably never want to switch out your weapon against trash again.

just my two plat