Dragonmarks: One to rule them all

[licho]

Starting question: how many of your builds even consider wasting feats for dragonmarks?

In theory dragonmarks should be ocasion to make toon more unique, make the difference between fighter halfing and figher HalfOrc, in practice nobody care, since there is no place for 3 spare feats.

So why not just make it one for all? The next step will just open on the right level (1/6/9).
( from the code pespective it could be easier and viable to make it as enchantment for minimal AP cost)

The benefit: Dragonmarks become more sexy and useful for price, more people will found place for it, resulting better variety in the game, and opening more options for similar builds on different races. Variety & options generally make game interesting, and longliving.

I suppose there is couple of threads and post about it in the past, however it seems they wasnt strong enought since the problem have not be fixed yet.

[Uska]

No

[AcesWylde]

yes to the one feat, and an enhancement line to improve it with a moderate cost, say 3/6

[Ystradmynach]

They are going to eventually make PrE based on all the dragonmarks, which should hopefully change the balance of power of the dragonmarks. And while it is true that most classes don't have the feats to spare for dragonmarks, fighters have more feats than they have good stuff to spend it on and at least three of their feats will be for flavor anyway.

[azrael4h]

No

Why? Almost no one takes them, as they are too feat intensive for all but Fighters, and maybe (BIG maybe) some Monks and Wizards. The benefits are either convenience or utterly useless entirely; and almost always requiring three feats to get to. The only one that is actually a good choice is the Dragonmark of Healing, and still that's trying to fit 3 feats into feat starved builds. Plus on that one you want to be able to cast Heal more than once per rest, and thus end up burning AP on additional uses. And many classes are AP starved as well as feat starved.

They are going to eventually make PrE based on all the dragonmarks, which should hopefully change the balance of power of the dragonmarks. And while it is true that most classes don't have the feats to spare for dragonmarks, fighters have more feats than they have good stuff to spend it on and at least three or their feats will be for flavor anyway.

Again, only Fighters have a reasonable chance of making use of the Dragonmarks, as they get so many extra feats. Reducing the cost to 1 feat would make it more viable to slip into feat starved builds, that can afford to sacrifice one feat for the mark, but not five. Even then, some PrE lines are so feat-intensive that they still won't be able to fit in the marks. So the Marks are a Fighter-only feat? Why not add them to the Fighter bonus feats then, and remove them entirely from the other class' lists. As they cannot take them anyway. That is ridiculous and poor design.

So /signed on the 1 feat cost to unlock all tiers. They simply are not worth 3 feats as of now. I think the only other thing is have them recharge over time, say 2 mins per use, so that the few (read one) marks that you want to have you can actually use more than once or twice per rest. Everything else can remain the same, though I think the Mark of Repairing can go die a horrible death unloved and unwanted, and be replaced with another Mark.

[AcesWylde]

They are going to eventually make PrE based on all the dragonmarks...

Coming Soon™

[Uska]

They may be expensive for three feats but one is to cheap to get the greater
Maybe one feat and a healthy cost in aps they shouldnt be so cheap so as to tempt most builds as they are suppose to a rare thing

[donfilibuster]

Because the dragonmarks are some strong element of the Eberron Campaing.
Not everyone has the marks, it has a cost, but also some advantages that are lost to DDO.

A dragonmarked person has a strong reputation with the corresponding house.
There's even a fourth tier of dragonmark which can't be taken by players, only direct heirs.
But in this game we are not out to play king, just mercenaries.

Yet, a dragonmark ought to be useful, worthy of three feats.
While simplification isn't evil this is one of many things affected by the conversion to MMO and in need of dev love.

Ideas would be to let you choose a power, or to have enhancement lines that improve them, etc.

I'm all to have the dragonmarks be more useful, but not to merge them away just because they are badly done as they are now.
Having the three feats merged into one is not a good idea because it takes from the game not add to it as if there were more uses or enhancements to make them worth taking.

So many things can be said that 'if they are not used remove it' when the thing to be done is to make them work as intended.
Like AC, when people say it should give DR instead, but that'd be taking away one of the build options when all that is takes is to have more AC options to pick from.
But is the glass half full or half empty?

[andbr22]

I thnik Devs don't have any idea how to deal with dragon marks. Also as DM are considerated gimped, that better this way so Devs are not expected to further research them so it is better for them...

First for me DMs are too feat starving compared to boosts that they gain (some effects are completly usless (dwarven DM as whole)). Ok they can be good on fighter, but when fighter gona be madstoned say good bye to your DMs...
Next cost in AP to increase number of usess is way too high. Only realy mad person would buy 1 DM for 4 AP, or even 1 DM for 3 AP (and talk about AP for new prestige)... ... ...

Well I think Devs shouldn't change before DM-prestiges are added (so probably it never change...)

I think DM should be 2 Feats (least, lesser) (greater, and superior (added by DM prestige))...

[AcesWylde]

Dragonmark of Healing (House Jorasco)

The halflings of House Jorasco bear the Mark of Healing and operate the Healers Guild.

Favored of House Jorasco - As a Dragonmarked member of House Jorasco, you gain a 10% bonus to any transactions with any of the vendors located in House Jorasco.

Granted Automatically:

Least Dragonmark of Healing - The bloodline of House Jorasco bestows on you a +2 bonus to your Heal skill. Activate this ability to cast Cure Light Wounds or Lesser Restoration three times per rest. (Least Dragonmark of Healing are effected by the metamagic feats: Empower, Maximize, Empower Heal, Quicken, and Enlarge)

Optional Enhancements:

Lesser Dragonmark of Healing - You gain an additional +2 bonus to your Heal skill, bringing the total to +4. Activate this ability to harness the bloodline of House Jorasco to cast Cure Serious Wounds or Restoration two times per rest. Also allows you to use your Least Mark of Healing an extra time per rest. (Lesser Dragonmark of Healing are effected by the metamagic feats: Empower, Maximize, Empower Heal, Quicken, and Enlarge)
Cost: 2AP, Level: 6, Requires: Dragonmark of Healing, Extra Dragonmark Use I (3AP investment)


Greater Dragonmark of Healing - You gain an additional +2 bonus to your Heal skill, bringing the total to +6. Activate this ability to harness the bloodline of House Jorasco to cast Heal once per rest. Also allows you to use your Least and Lesser Marks of Healing an extra time per rest. Your Least and Lesser Marks of Healing are now considered Empowered. (Greater Dragonmark of Healing are effected by the metamagic feats: Empower Heal, Quicken, Enlarge, and Heighten)
Cost: 4AP, Level: 9, Requires: Lesser Dragonmark of Healing, Extra Dragonmark Use II (9AP investment)


Siberys Dragonmark of Healing - You gain an additional +2 bonus to your Heal skill, bringing the total to +8. Activate this ability to harness the bloodline of House Jorasco to cast Mass Heal once per rest. Also allows you to use your Least, Lesser, and Greater Marks of Healing an extra time per rest. Your Least and Lesser Marks of Healing are now considered Maximized (instead of Empowered). (Greater Dragonmark of Healing are effected by the metamagic feats: Empower Heal, Quicken, Enlarge, and Heighten)
Cost: 6AP, Level: 18, Requires: Greater Dragonmark of Healing, Extra Dragonmark Use III (18AP investment)

[drac317]

Siberys Dragonmark of Healing - You gain an additional +2 bonus to your Heal skill, bringing the total to +8. Activate this ability to harness the bloodline of House Jorasco to cast Mass Heal once per rest. Also allows you to use your Least, Lesser, and Greater Marks of Healing an extra time per rest. Your Least and Lesser Marks of Healing are now considered Maximized (instead of Empowered). (Greater Dragonmark of Healing are effected by the metamagic feats: Empower Heal, Quicken, Enlarge, and Heighten)
Cost: 6AP, Level: 18, Requires: Greater Dragonmark of Healing, Extra Dragonmark Use III (18AP investment)

the problem with this is if u have a least,lesser,or greater dragon mark siberys marks are locked out to you.

personally i still want aberrant dragonmarkshttp://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonmarks

[licho]

The one thing is 'how good the DM are?', the second is 'how much is it?'
In the OP i targeted only the second.

Of course there is a vast area to develop DM, introduce related PrE, advanced AP enchantment and so on... but there is a lot of work, and i do not even dare to ask for that.

What i want to happen, is to bring the existing piece of code from theroticial 'devs things its worth' to real 'what players are ready (and able) to take'.

As was mentioned the most of the build do not have 3 spare feats, literally. Maybe one, with sacrifices. (im speaking about resoanble builds not Barbarians with dodge). Maybe fighters can pay the price, but there are others classes than fighters.

For me existing marks line are worth 1 feat + 6AP (for 3 extra uses) and 2-6AP (for 2nd and 3rd thier). This is the price when i would start to consider building for them.
While its can be named like bergain, there is no easy win, like :
Fearsome self healing Halfing Barbarian with -2str penalty and no tougness nor stunning blow.
Even more dreadfull HE with 4-8 uses of gust of wind/electric loop/call lighting... the air savants DPS position is in serious threat.
(...)
Even with reduced cost, the DM will be nothing scary. The only change it will be a chance to spot somebody using it.

EDIT: the sole idea of -10% discount for DM users with the related house is sweet.

[ehcsztein]

(18AP investment)

The idea of switching from feat investment to AP investment (to boost one feat) in order maximize DM is interesting.

It would however, destroy my current DM build as it comfortably fits in the 3 feats but doesn't have room for 18AP to make a single feat worthwhile. I would simply drop the DM aspect of the build if something like this were to occur.

I just think some builds are more AP starved than they are feat starved. I might be the exception though.

I would like to see the DM PRE come to fruition though. Main reason I have a DM character was to see if I could eventually fit 4 PRE into a single build... can do three now and would really like to achieve maximum mutt gimpatude.

[noinfo]

Starting question: how many of your builds even consider wasting feats for dragonmarks?

In theory dragonmarks should be ocasion to make toon more unique, make the difference between fighter halfing and figher HalfOrc, in practice nobody care, since there is no place for 3 spare feats.

So why not just make it one for all? The next step will just open on the right level (1/6/9).
( from the code pespective it could be easier and viable to make it as enchantment for minimal AP cost)

The benefit: Dragonmarks become more sexy and useful for price, more people will found place for it, resulting better variety in the game, and opening more options for similar builds on different races. Variety & options generally make game interesting, and longliving.

I suppose there is couple of threads and post about it in the past, however it seems they wasnt strong enought since the problem have not be fixed yet.

Given it is based on feats fitting anything extra in on a pally is extremely difficult let alone those feats.

Dragon marks costing up to 3 feats for the set are often not worth it even with classes that have plenty of feats.

While you don't want everyone running around with dragon marks having them a little easier to aquire with less to give up for them would also be good. If it could be worked into each houses favour system that the relevant house could give a feat at a certain level of favour or another desirable option, of course only allowing a single mark to be developed and bonuses feats only avaible from 1 house chosen as a patron house.

Some of the less desirable feats could be worked into this as well,:
eg Level 1 house D favour includes training in Bastard Sword or appropriate dragon mark (Sentinel)

This would add a bit more flavour to the game as well as characters would have a patron house that would reward them further as they progressed beyond what the current favour system does. Non patron houses would reward as per current reward system.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

the problem with this is if u have a least,lesser,or greater dragon mark siberys marks are locked out to you.

This.

Oh, and (in tabletop) Player Characters CAN take the Siberys Marks, but it's a Prestige Class. And you can't have any other Dragonmarks before you enter the class.


What I'm hoping for is for the Dragonmarked Heir Prestige Enhancement to grant the Lesser and Greater Dragonmarks for 'free', as per tabletop. Costs the Least to enter, and you get the other two as part of it, along with alternate uses for the Least and Lesser.
So in a way, that is transferring the feat investment into an AP investment, but it's optional. Although they might just require all three feats to get the entire PrE. Meh, but if the optional uses for Least are good enough it might be worth the first tier.

And Aberrant Marks would be fun. One feat, get a blasty or CC spell. APs to get more uses as normal. No additional tiers or feats, no D'marked Heir PrE. Put in decent enough spells and people would take it.

[Rdonaccount]

Answer to the starting question: I have 7 characters i play regularly. 3 have all 3 tiers of halfling DMs (1 ftr, 1 monk, 1 wiz), and 1 of the others just TR'd from such a DM wiz build to a fvs. As for other builds i've considered that would use, the only other one was a 18pld/2mnk elf build that used the displacement clickies. It would have mostly been as a character that didn't require much in the way of shroud items so I could farm ingredients for other characters. In the end, I just leveled my halfling monk instead, and had so much fun with it that i forgot about the elf.

I, for one, do not want to see more AP cost placed on dragonmarks. AP tends to be a lot tighter than feats for many classes in this game. If you need another feat or 2, you just splash a couple levels of fighter or monk, and give up your capstone. But (especially with the new arcane spell AP systems and monk pre's) AP has gotten to be a premium for most character builds out there. Really, fighter and tempest ranger are the only 2 classes I can think of that would still be considered easy on AP.

Who knows what a pending dragonmark pre would look like, but fitting in more AP for it on top of everything that we've already spent might make DMs even less attractive, unless the bonuses are big (OP?) enough.

[AcesWylde]

the problem with this is if u have a least,lesser,or greater dragon mark siberys marks are locked out to you.http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Dragonmarks

this is ddo, not pnp, lol

What I'm hoping for is for the Dragonmarked Heir Prestige Enhancement to grant the Lesser and Greater Dragonmarks for 'free', as per tabletop. Costs the Least to enter, and you get the other two as part of it, along with alternate uses for the Least and Lesser.

Um, how is that any different than what was suggested?


BTW, I don't think the Favored of House and Heroic Spirit feats translate well to ddo

[Symar-FangofLloth]

news flash: this is ddo, not pnp, lol

Um, how is that any different than what was suggested?

News flash: This game is based on tabletop D&D.

And your post was so long I only skimmed it. My apologies. That's what Dragonmarked Heir: Jorasco should do, give or take, minus the Siberys Mark.

[AcesWylde]

News flash: This game is based on tabletop D&D.

NOT ALL PNP RULES TRANSLATE WELL TO DDO

sorry about the caps, but I wanted to make it easy to read, lol

yes ddo is based on 3.5 edition rules, but 95% of the rules were forced through a meat grinder in order to fit ;>

(and I've seen several things I think that were inspired from 4e as well)

Dragonmark Heir
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The dragonmarked houses are a significant force in the politics and economics of Khorvaire, though their political influence is usually behind the scenes and often quite subtle. Perhaps as many as one person in a hundred has a blood connection to one of the twelve houses. Of these thousands, however, no more than half actually manifest a dragonmark. Even more rare are the individuals who demonstrate a natural ability to improve and use their dragonmark powers in ways that go well beyond others in their houses. These exceptional individuals are dragonmark heirs.

Dragonmark heirs have the ability to improve the dragonmarks they have manifested, as well as to develop additional abilities related to their dragonmarks. Dragonmark heir NPCs fill a wide variety of roles within the dragonmarked houses. To some extent, they command a degree of respect from unmarked members of the house, but a more powerful mark does not necessarily equate to a position of leadership. The economic realities of Khorvaire demand leadership from those with a keen mind for business, which does not necessarily go hand in hand with a more powerful dragonmark.
The Dragonmarked Heir

Base attack: As a cleric (+2/3). Saves: All good. (There are 5 levels to this class)
Requirements

To qualify to become a dragonmark heir, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.

Race: Member of appropriate dragonmarked race and house.

Skills: 7 ranks in any two skills.

Feats: Favored in House, Least Dragonmark.
Class Featuress

Hit Die: d8.

Class Skills: Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha) , Gather Information (Cha) , Intimidate (Cha) , Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Perform (Cha), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (n/a), and Spellcraft (Int).

Skill Points per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Dragonmark heirs gain no proficiency with any weapons, armor, or shields.

Lesser Dragonmark: A dragonmark heir manifests the lesser dragonmark of her house. She receives the Lesser Dragonmark feat as a bonus feat without having to meet the skill rank prerequisite.

House Status: A dragonmark heir uses her level in this class as a bonus on all Charisma-related checks when dealing with members of her own house.

Improved Least Dragonmark: Beginning at 2nd level, a dragonmark heir gains improved mastery of her least dragonmark. She can select a second spell-like ability associated with the least dragonmark for her house, or she can use the least dragonmark spell-like ability she already possesses one additional time per day.

Improved Lesser Dragonmark: Starting at 3rd level, a dragonmark heir gains improved mastery of her lesser dragonmark. She can select a second spell-like ability associated with the lesser dragonmark for her house, or she can use the lesser dragonmark spell-like ability she already possesses one additional time per day.

Greater Dragonmark: At 4th level, a dragonmark heir manifests the greater dragonmark of her house. She receives the Greater Dragonmark feat as a bonus feat without having to meet the skill rank prerequisite.

Improved Greater Dragonmark: At 5th level, a dragonmark heir gains improved mastery of her greater dragonmark. She can use the greater dragonmark spell-like ability she already possesses one additional time per day.

In 4th edition, dragonmarks are gained by taking the feat associated with the mark, and its power can be increased by choosing the corresponding dragonmark paragon path.

[Symar-FangofLloth]

In 4th edition, dragonmarks are gained by taking the feat associated with the mark, and its power can be increased by choosing the corresponding dragonmark paragon path.

Functionally similar to taking levels in Dragonmarked Heir.