Zenn-Archery not generating ki

[DustTheWind]

What is up with Zenn-Archery. All other ki weapons generate ki except a long bow. Longswords, shortswords, hand-wraps, kamas, but not long bow. Why???

Not only that but none of the ki attack work with the long bow.

And thats not all. Most of the stances are more useless with the long bow compared to all the other weapons.

With long bow

Sun stance
-Extra ki generation -Nada-
-Extra ki in crits -Nada-
-Extra strength -Yes-

Wind stance
-Double strike -Nada-
-Faster attack rate -Nada-
-Extra dex -yes-

Water stance
-All work but kinda useless for archery but at least it works

-Mountain stance
-kind of exciting that stance III works for +crit mult on a 19-20 but
-slows ya down, have to get hit to generate ki, extra AC not bad.

As it is the long bow is gimped compared to other ki weapons by the lack of ki generation and elemental attacks. Even the Way of the Crane to generate extra ki by crits dosn't help the bow currently.

Could the devs give this a little love. I take it they made Zenn archery so monk would want to use the bow or am I wrong?

Edit1:
Thanks to SiliconShadow for pointing this out.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Zen_Arc...%29#Power_Shot
...Ki Shot: At 4th level, the zen archer learns to channel the subtle energies of ki through his ranged attacks made with bows. The zen archer may now add his Wisdom bonus to damage rolls made regarding bow attacks. This added damage stacks with bonuses gained from using composite bows with a strength requirement. Zen archery and its subsequent special abilities can only be used with shortbows and longbows (not crossbows or other ranged or thrown weapons). Added damage from Zen Archery cannot drop below 0. ...

...Though a zen archer casts no spells, he channels a subtle energy called ki, which allows him to empower his shots. A zen archer also has a preternatural awareness that allows him to dodge an attack even if she is not consciously aware of it. As a zen archer gains experience and power, his mundane and ki-oriented abilities grow, giving him more and more power over himself and sometimes over others...

...A zen archer channels his ki through his arrows...

...Bonus Feat: A zen archer gains a number of bonus feats as he improves. He gains one at 1st, 2nd, 6th, 10th, 15th and 20th. He may choose any of the following: Deflect Arrows, Far Shot, Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot, Mounted Archery, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run and Snatch Arrows. When choosing bonus feats, the zen archer may apply his Wisdom score to any prerequisite usually involving Dexterity. For instance, he may apply for the Manyshot feat if he has a Wisdom score of 17....

...Zen Mastery: At 16th level, a zen archer's mastery over his weapons of choice increases. The critical multiplier of any shortbow or longbow in his hands increases by one and becomes ×4.... <---Wow this is better than Deep wood sniper!

[Missing_Minds]

I take it they made Zenn archery so monk would want to use the bow or am I wrong?

Zen Archery is actually the ability to use your wisdom modifier in place of your dex modifier for your bonus to hit. Much like finesse uses dex for str in the same manner. That is it.

It has never been a method to use a long bow/short bow as "monk weapon." This and Ki generation is a DDO gimic and not a PnP method.

The allowance for remaining centered so you didn't drop out of your stance, and the allowance to take it as a monk feat was tossed in just to be nice.

[DustTheWind]

Zen Archery is actually the ability to use your wisdom modifier in place of your dex modifier for your bonus to hit. Much like finesse uses dex for str in the same manner. That is it.

It has never been a method to use a long bow/short bow as "monk weapon." This and Ki generation is a DDO gimic and not a PnP method.

The allowance for remaining centered so you didn't drop out of your stance, and the allowance to take it as a monk feat was tossed in just to be nice.

I differ in opinion. For one this is not paper and pen D&D. By your logic because Ki generation isn't in paper and pen D&D then none of the weapons should generate ki. That would be false. Also a stance should be about equally beneficial to all ki weapons. So why is the bow geting the short end? That is what I am asking.

Zen Archery Quote
You can use your wisdom bonus instead of Dexterity bonus to determine bonus to attack with ranged missile weapons (but not thrown weapons) if it is higher. -->"You treat shortbows and longbows as if they were ki weapons."<--

Zenn archery is more than "just" the ability to use your wisdom modifier to hit. It is also the ability to use the bow as a ki weapon.

Ninja Monk quote
-->"You are considered proficient in shortswords and treat them as ki weapons."<--

however shortswords or long swords get all the benefits except touch of death but I can understand that. But bows are even further gimped. No ki generation, no elemental attacks, lacking bennefits from stances.

[Ystradmynach]

So do shuriken generate ki? If not, then it is probably WAI. Of course WAI doesn't mean balanced, and supposedly we will get a ranged pass soon which may address these issues. Although right now you could create a monk AA, take all the ranged feats and with mountain stance and be as effective at ranged as an AA ranger. So yeah, in the end you probably aren't actually worse off than other ranged characters, as there isn't that much they can add to ranged damage either.

[Musouka]

Shurikens do not. I am sure it has to do with the ability to transfer the energy from your attacks into your body. You can't transfer the energy of a missile weapon back to you, because there is no conduit for it to travel through.

[THOTHdha]

I differ in opinion. For one this is not paper and pen D&D. By your logic because Ki generation isn't in paper and pen D&D then none of the weapons should generate ki. That would be false. Also a stance should be about equally beneficial to all ki weapons. So why is the bow geting the short end? That is what I am asking.

Zen Archery Quote
You can use your wisdom bonus instead of Dexterity bonus to determine bonus to attack with ranged missile weapons (but not thrown weapons) if it is higher. -->"You treat shortbows and longbows as if they were ki weapons."<--

Zenn archery is more than "just" the ability to use your wisdom modifier to hit. It is also the ability to use the bow as a ki weapon.

Ninja Monk quote
-->"You are considered proficient in shortswords and treat them as ki weapons."<--

however shortswords or long swords get all the benefits except touch of death but I can understand that. But bows are even further gimped. No ki generation, no elemental attacks, lacking bennefits from stances.

Shruikan are also Ki weapons. Aside from increased throw speed from Wind stance, they are treated the same as a bow. Because the advantages that are lost on bows are all Melee abilities. You can not perform Ki strikes and such at range.

[DustTheWind]

Ok well I don't see why shruikens shouldn't generate ki either then.

As far as conduits well there is no explanation for how ki travels. And it is just a game. Why shouln't you be able to generate ki using a ki weapon from a distance? Who is to say ki can't travle like that? In fact from a friend I have heard of ki traveling over distance... but I digress. Then how do you think they generate ki by meditation as well?

How is it a Arcane archer can add elemenal damage to an arrow or a shruiken but not a monk?

Why should ranged ki weapons be gimped? No body agrees with me? Or is it that there are just so few ranged users not to mention monk ranged maybe?

I think my point still stands. Ranged ki weapons lack benefits from stances. They lack ki generation. They lack ki elemenal strikes.

[andbr22]

[Heavy sarcasm]
"Why?" Becuse devs hate ranged combat, and they are constantly killed by "OP" AA in PvP...
[/Heavy sarcasm]

Unfortunetly Devs don't even want to try makeing ranged combat viable (last new "uber ranged feat" -> this one with extra suricen attack is kidna usless). When ranged is ubergimped there is no need to adjust it everyone say it is gimped and so it is... Only people who say it is not gimed are people who didn't played it, and say that Archer gives you "Uber survivality".

And yes this suck...

[DustTheWind]

[Heavy sarcasm]
"Why?" Becuse devs hate ranged combat, and they are constantly killed by "OP" AA in PvP...
[/Heavy sarcasm]

Unfortunetly Devs don't even want to try makeing ranged combat viable (last new "uber ranged feat" -> this one with extra suricen attack is kidna usless). When ranged is ubergimped there is no need to adjust it everyone say it is gimped and so it is... Only people who say it is not gimed are people who didn't played it, and say that Archer gives you "Uber survivality".

And yes this suck...

Well I don't know about the devs hating ranged or being killed by AA in PvP. Personally PvP means very little to me. I almost never do it. I in fact have high hopes that they might see things my way which is why I am making this suggestion. That and I thought I heard a little mouse say there might be a ranged passover. --> Crosses fingers <--

[Missing_Minds]

That and I thought I heard a little mouse say there might be a ranged passover. --> Crosses fingers <--

DevilMouse left for lotro years back. Not certain if he is still there or not. His last quest here was the Abbot raid.

[Luis_Velderve]

Shurikens do not. I am sure it has to do with the ability to transfer the energy from your attacks into your body. You can't transfer the energy of a missile weapon back to you, because there is no conduit for it to travel through.

Sadly, that is it. Maybe adding a light weight silver line at the end of the arrow may do the trick XD!

[Missing_Minds]

Then how do you think they generate ki by meditation as well? "

By taking the time to do nothing but center and refocus.

I do not argue that the strikes should be able to pass over distance. Aka you could "embune" the "shot", but to recover ki from a strike that is sent over a distance is a bit reaching. You spend more energy to be able to keep the "charge" on the ammunition than you do with a direct physical strike.

But it could make for an amusing ability of the Henshin Mystic. We know nothing of how they intend for those to work other than apparently they like fire.

[DustTheWind]

Sadly, that is it. Maybe adding a light weight silver line at the end of the arrow may do the trick XD!

I re-direct your attention again to my 3rd post 2nd paragraph.

"Why shouln't you be able to generate ki using a ki weapon from a distance? Who is to say ki can't travle like that? In fact from a friend I have heard of ki traveling over distance... but I digress. Then how do you think they generate ki by meditation as well? "

I actually thought it was that the ki weapon allows you to remain in the state that you maintain your ki and the repetitive action of the weapon motion allowed ki generation. In fact there is no physical contact at all necessary for ki regeneration during the meditative state. Green sitting dude icon.

DevilMouse left for lotro years back. Not certain if he is still there or not. His last quest here was the Abbot raid.

Who is DevilMouse? Is he a programmer? If so I hope that is not an excuse for them to not do anything with ranged combat. They should hire some one or something if that is so. Was the rumor I heard wrong that they are going to do a ranged passover this next update?

[Missing_Minds]

Was the rumor I heard wrong that they are going to do a ranged passover this next update?

We have all heard that rumor, and the direct quote is that they were looking at possibly doing one this year. That covers several months. They also only make system changes every other update. U9 got us a change to the spell system. A pretty heavy one at that. This means next possible update that could have a ranged pass as part of it would be Update 11.

This also correlates to the change to repeating crossbows that is coming in update 11 per Eladrin.

[DustTheWind]

By taking the time to do nothing but center and refocus.

I do not argue that the strikes should be able to pass over distance. Aka you could "embune" the "shot", but to recover ki from a strike that is sent over a distance is a bit reaching. You spend more energy to be able to keep the "charge" on the ammunition than you do with a direct physical strike.

But it could make for an amusing ability of the Henshin Mystic. We know nothing of how they intend for those to work other than apparently they like fire.

Ok so if I am able to imbue an arrow with an elemental strike but I cant generate ki from it then how am I going to be able to use elemental strikes?

Honestly the issue here is that it is a ballancing issue. Currently bow use with Zenn archery is unballanced and I guess shruikens too. Compared to other ki weapons.

[orakio]

What is up with Zenn-Archery. All other ki weapons generate ki except a long bow. Longswords, shortswords, hand-wraps, kamas, but not long bow. Why???

Not only that but none of the ki attack work with the long bow.

And thats not all. Most of the stances are more useless with the long bow compared to all the other weapons.

With long bow

Sun stance
-Extra ki generation -Nada-
-Extra ki in crits -Nada-
-Extra strength -Yes-

Wind stance
-Double strike -Nada-
-Faster attack rate -Nada-
-Extra dex -yes-

Water stance
-All work but kinda useless for archery but at least it works

-Mountain stance
-kind of exciting that stance III works for +crit mult on a 19-20 but
-slows ya down, have to get hit to generate ki, extra AC not bad.

As it is the long bow is gimped compared to other ki weapons by the lack of ki generation and elemental attacks. Even the Way of the Crane to generate extra ki by crits dosn't help the bow currently.

Could the devs give this a little love. I take it they made Zenn archery so monk would want to use the bow or am I wrong?

My Brother and I have had a few discussions about this as he had thought of a similar build and was a bit more than just dissapointed when it didn't function as he hoped. The problem comes from 2 things, your perception of the purpose of the feat as well as coding.

1) Your post indicates that you believe this feat was made for monks to allow them to use a ranged weapon. The problem is that they have a ranged weapon already with multiple boosts to it, the shuriken. Both of these are functioning similarly at the moment which makes the no ki generation and strike use with ranged weapons seem like an intended situation. The reality is the feat is more for Silver Flame FvS evoker builds that use Wis as a primary stat and often splash monk for water stance+evasion. This feat helps with the Silver Flame focus on longbows as well as helps maintain being centered for stance bonuses for the build. Basically the "ki weapon" was thrown on as an extra to help with this specific build.

2) Ranged attacks are coded in a way that makes it so they are unable to use tactical strikes as well as certain "on hit" effects such as dragontouched destrution/smiting. Changing it to allow ki generation could have some serious side effects with abilities like these as well as possibly effecting tactic abilities like stunning blow/trip/sunder/etc. Coding it to allow ki generation would most likely be a complex task and potentially break other aspects of the game which would not be a good thing.

As it is this feat is a VERY situational feat like many others in DDO and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Unfortunately it doesn't work well for you build idea and maybe that will change in the future but right now the feat is working exactly as it seems it is intended to.

[Missing_Minds]

Ok so if I am able to imbue an arrow with an elemental strike but I cant generate ki from it then how am I going to be able to use elemental strikes?
Isn't that the trick? Is a martial artists (aka hand to hand combat specialists) known for archery? No, they really are not. Is the throwing star a primary weapon? Again, no.

Honestly the issue here is that it is a ballancing issue. Currently bow use with Zenn archery is unballanced and I guess shruikens too. Compared to other ki weapons.

Now being the arguments of why ranged should have the same abilities at melee, and the counters to such argument. End result of the argument that has been rehashed for longer than you've been officially registered on the forums is that the developers feel that ranged has a huge advantage as you do not risk damage.

Note: I have not said I agreed with the end result, but it is what it is.

[Musouka]

As far as conduits well there is no explanation for how ki travels. And it is just a game. Why shouln't you be able to generate ki using a ki weapon from a distance? Who is to say ki can't travle like that? In fact from a friend I have heard of ki traveling over distance... but I digress. Then how do you think they generate ki by meditation as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nei_Jing

Try that article. It explains a lot. Before you try to correct me on Ki, not Qi, they're the same thing. Qi is chinese, Ki is japanese.

On the other hand, the level of the ‘Nei Jing’ force depends on the extent one can exercise one’s will power to release an inner energy called ‘Qi’. Within the framework of Chinese martial arts, every person is believed to possess the inborn energy of ‘Qi’. Martial artists can harness the force of ‘Qi’ so that it is strong enough to be applied in combat. When ‘Qi’ is being directed by one’s will, it is called ‘Nei Jing’.

............

The contact point only represents the gateway to conduct ‘Nei Jing’ energy at the point of attack.

[DustTheWind]

Discussion in red below.

My Brother and I have had a few discussions about this as he had thought of a similar build and was a bit more than just dissapointed when it didn't function as he hoped. The problem comes from 2 things, your perception of the purpose of the feat as well as coding.

1) Your post indicates that you believe this feat was made for monks to allow them to use a ranged weapon. I most certainly do. The problem is that they have a ranged weapon already with multiple boosts to it, the shuriken. So they are only allowed one ranged weapon??? Nah. Certainly not. Both of these are functioning similarly at the moment which makes the no ki generation and strike use with ranged weapons seem like an intended situation. The reality is the feat is more for Silver Flame FvS evoker builds that use Wis as a primary stat and often splash monk for water stance+evasion. This feat helps with the Silver Flame focus on longbows as well as helps maintain being centered for stance bonuses for the build. Basically the "ki weapon" was thrown on as an extra to help with this specific build. I don't agree that this is "just" a feat for only a single build.

2) Ranged attacks are coded in a way that makes it so they are unable to use tactical strikes as well as certain "on hit" effects such as dragontouched destrution/smiting. Changing it to allow ki generation could have some serious side effects with abilities like these as well as possibly effecting tactic abilities like stunning blow/trip/sunder/etc. Coding it to allow ki generation would most likely be a complex task and potentially break other aspects of the game which would not be a good thing. Well of course it would be game changing. Every update they have made to the game is game changing. It would not be over powered in my opinion and would be a bit more fair to ranged users. I am sure they can code in for ranged attack to generate ki. They are programers its their job.

As it is this feat is a VERY situational feat like many others in DDO and that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Unfortunately it doesn't work well for you build idea and maybe that will change in the future but right now the feat is working exactly as it seems it is intended to.
And I don't see how you could assume to know that the feat is working as intended unless you were the person who built the feat. But the issue is not the feat so much as a ki weapon not generating ki


Isn't that the trick? Is a martial artists (aka hand to hand combat specialists) known for archery? No, they really are not. Is the throwing star a primary weapon? Again, no. Just because the ranged ki weapons get fixed to be like other ki weapons dosn't mean they are going to be the only weapons people will use. In my opinion thats no excuse for them not to behave like other ki weapons.

[Musouka]

Isn't that the trick? Is a martial artists (aka hand to hand combat specialists) known for archery? No, they really are not. Is the throwing star a primary weapon? Again, no. <rgb=#FF0000>Just because the ranged ki weapons get fixed to be like other ki weapons dosn't mean they are going to be the only weapons people will use. In my opinion thats no excuse for them not to behave like other ki weapons. </rgb>

Also, a shuriken's primary use was to distract.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuriken

The star form shurikens were thrown into the ground to ward of pursuers, much like caltrops.