Skills: A Proposed Change

[redspecter23]

I think that the skill system is in need of some serious work. Some skills get used, while others are in the game for flavor reasons only at this point. This is an attempt to bring all skills up to usable status while giving some options for builds to take advantage of some lesser used skills. I'm proposing a system for all skills based on how many ranks are taken in that skill. At 10+ ranks taken, a bonus ability is opened up and again at 20+ ranks. Any character with a skill as a class skill can open up the first bonus at level 7 and the second bonus at level 17. A cross classed skill can be opened up at level 17. Below is a list of some skills and proposed rank bonuses. Some may need work, being under or overpowered, but it's the general idea I'm proposing. Tweaks are expected.

Balance
10+ ranks: You are immune to greasy surfaces
20+ ranks: You gain a toggle that while active will not allow you to walk off of edges. (this would allow you to run full speed over tightrope like objects or circle the demon queen without ever accidentally falling into the lava)

Bluff
10+ ranks: Your bluff range is slightly increased based on your total bluff modifier
20+ ranks: If you succeed your bluff by 20 or more, your target becomes absolutely enthralled by something "over there". The target acts as if held for 6 seconds. (red named would be subject to sneak attack but not the +50% damage of course)

Concentration
10+ ranks: Your movement speed penalty while using spells and abilities is decreased. The amount is based on your total concentration modifier
20+ ranks: You may make a concentration check to keep from being interrupted performing any action.

Diplomacy
10+ ranks: Your diplomacy range is slightly increased, based on your total diplomacy modifier
20+ ranks: You gain a toggle ability. While on, if your diplomacy succeeds by 20 or more, your targets flee as though under the effect of a fear spell. (the idea is you are so good at convincing your foes not to attack you, they just decide to leave the battle altogether)

Disable Device
10+ ranks: You disable faster, based on your disable device modifier
20+ ranks: You gain a toggle that allows you to "take 10" instead of rolling while active

Haggle
10+ ranks: no proposed changes
20+ ranks: no proposed changes

Heal
10+ ranks: You may use a healing kit to apply a healing ability to yourself or an ally. The amount healed is equal to your heal skill.
20+ ranks: Using a healers kit, you may apply a short term buff to yourself or an ally. The next time they receive positive healing while the buff is active they receive X% additional healing amplification. X is equal to your heal skill.

Hide
10+ ranks: Your speed while sneaking increases by additional 5%
20+ ranks: Your speed while sneaking increases an additional 5%

Intimidate
10+ ranks: Your intimidate range is slightly increased, based on your total intimidate modifier
20+ ranks: If your intimidate succeeds by 20 or more, your targets are frozen in place as if effected by mummy fear. (the number is subject to change. The basic idea is that if you're running lower content or facing enemies that you severely outmatch that they would be subject to this ability)

Jump
10+ ranks: you may tumble while jumping (this is more for coolness factor than actual distance and assumes you have the necessary tumble skill)
20+ ranks: you may jump while tumbling

Listen
10+ ranks: you may see "footsteps" through doors, and fog/blindness effects.
20+ ranks: you are not subject to the blur or displacement buff on enemies.

Move Silently
10+ ranks: Your speed while sneaking increases an additional 5%
20+ ranks: Your speed while sneaking increases an additional 5%

Open Lock
10+ ranks: You open locks faster based on your total open lock modifier
20+ ranks: You gain a toggle that allows you to "take 10" instead of rolling while active.

Perform
10+ ranks: no proposed changes
20+ ranks: no proposed changes

Repair
10+ ranks: You may use a repair kit to apply a repair ability to yourself or an ally. The amount repaired is equal to your repair skill.
20+ ranks: Using a repair kit, you may apply a short term buff to yourself or an ally. The next time they receive a repair effect while the buff is active they receive X% additional repair amplification. X is equal to your repair skill.

Search
10+ ranks: You search faster based on your total search modifier
20+ ranks: Your search range is increased based on your total search modifier

Spot
10+ ranks: When you receive a spot notification, you will also have an arrow showing the direction if you are close enough. Distance is based on your total spot modifier
20+ ranks: You can tell by looking at an enemy if it carries anything of value that will drop something when killed if your spot skill is greater than 10 + enemy CR (they will glow or shine or something like that)

Swim
10+ ranks: You can propel yourself through the water. This ability is similar to monk or favored soul's leaping ability. The distance is based on your swim skill.
20+ ranks: You may hold your breath near indefinitely. (your breath meter will tick down at the same rate warforged used to, about 3 hours to drown)

Tumble
(I propose an additional change for tumble. Instead of making it a passive ability that you activate by holding block and moving, could it be made an activated ability I can drag onto my bar?)
10+ ranks: You may tumble through enemies as though they were not there
20+ ranks: While tumbling through enemies you have a % chance to attack one of them. The % is equal to your tumble skill.

Umd
10+ ranks: no proposed changes
20+ ranks: no proposed changes

Edit: added some suggestions. Removed perform bonuses.

[fluffybunnywilson]

Because D&D and DDO are supposed to actively use magic spells and items and because high Str, Dex, etc. should (and do) have a significant impact on your skills, I think that anything like this should use the total skill and not skill ranks.

That would obviously require that the threshold numbers be increased significantly (doubled at least), but I like the idea even if I think that individual skill benefits might be overpowered.

[redspecter23]

Because D&D and DDO are supposed to actively use magic spells and items and because high Str, Dex, etc. should (and do) have a significant impact on your skills, I think that anything like this should use the total skill and not skill ranks.

That would obviously require that the threshold numbers be increased significantly (doubled at least), but I like the idea even if I think that individual skill benefits might be overpowered.

I did take that into consideration but part of the point was to get people taking skills into account when making build choices. Instead of 1 rank into tumble, the rest in balance, jump, umd or rogue skills if applicable. If you had choices with your build skills you could add more variety. If it were to be based off of total score, then there is no real balance as it's just an extra added benefit. It's the same reason that bard perform buffs are based off of ranks and not total score. It encourages the bard to spend points on the skill and not just use items and buffs to boost the skill. Also the concept of 2 tiers (one for cross class and one for class skills) would be lost.

[AcesWylde]

I think that the skill system is in need of some serious work.

Agreed.

Another thread on the same topic:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=317552

[THOTHdha]

I quite like the foundation of this idea, that there is some kind of small bump associated with having ranks in skills rather than just using skill items to meet certain thresholds. I like that there is a boost that cross class pumping can get (10, maybe even move that to 11) and also a boost for going nearly the entire way in a skill (20, could even move that to 23).

As you say, some work may be needed to balance them. Some of them, such as Balance, emulate one of the large advantages to taking a PrE line or getting specific named items. That seems a bit overpowered to me. Something like a small movement speed increase while in effects that slow your movement might be more reasonable, and most definitely useful, while not being game breaking if you do not have.

Others, such as the three 'social' skills (bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate) do not seem to be have very useful top rank bonuses. By the time that you could actually use them, you could just one-shot the foe instead. Now that the auto-target portion of Intimidate is much shorter than the skill's cool down, perhaps it would be reasonable to have a small shortening of the skill's cool down?

Some other skills effects seem rather useful, and a good idea, however I would question the amount of work that they would require. Specifically Listen and the top bonus from Spot. Perhaps there would be some way that the game to be able to report back the number of mobs in a certain radius of you when you click it. Or it might be that would require a large rewrite. It seems like in order to list what all foes are 'behind a door', however, would require going back and redetailing each quest with that information. Anything that is going to take a massive, massive amount of time to add retroactively rather than designing with it in mind from the start does not seem like a change that is worth it's time.


Overall I really like this idea! It seems like one of the much more positive suggestions presented. I think that adding these two tiers of perks for ranks-in-skill rather than final skill modifier would be a significant game mechanic improvement that does not punish preexisting characters, and does add a useful dynamic to be considered when planning a character.

[redspecter23]

I quite like the foundation of this idea, that there is some kind of small bump associated with having ranks in skills rather than just using skill items to meet certain thresholds. I like that there is a boost that cross class pumping can get (10, maybe even move that to 11) and also a boost for going nearly the entire way in a skill (20, could even move that to 23).

As you say, some work may be needed to balance them. Some of them, such as Balance, emulate one of the large advantages to taking a PrE line or getting specific named items. That seems a bit overpowered to me. Something like a small movement speed increase while in effects that slow your movement might be more reasonable, and most definitely useful, while not being game breaking if you do not have.

Others, such as the three 'social' skills (bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate) do not seem to be have very useful top rank bonuses. By the time that you could actually use them, you could just one-shot the foe instead. Now that the auto-target portion of Intimidate is much shorter than the skill's cool down, perhaps it would be reasonable to have a small shortening of the skill's cool down?

Some other skills effects seem rather useful, and a good idea, however I would question the amount of work that they would require. Specifically Listen and the top bonus from Spot. Perhaps there would be some way that the game to be able to report back the number of mobs in a certain radius of you when you click it. Or it might be that would require a large rewrite. It seems like in order to list what all foes are 'behind a door', however, would require going back and redetailing each quest with that information. Anything that is going to take a massive, massive amount of time to add retroactively rather than designing with it in mind from the start does not seem like a change that is worth it's time.


Overall I really like this idea! It seems like one of the much more positive suggestions presented. I think that adding these two tiers of perks for ranks-in-skill rather than final skill modifier would be a significant game mechanic improvement that does not punish preexisting characters, and does add a useful dynamic to be considered when planning a character.

I had two reasons for suggesting the 10/20 thresholds instead of 11/23. First it allows for something nifty on level 7 and 17. Currently somewhat dead levels. 6 is your first tier pre, 18 is your third, 20 is capstone. It adds some excitement on levels that need some excitement. Also 10 and 20 are nice clean easy to remember number goals.

With regards to Balance, I specifically went with immunity to grease instead of immunity to all slippery surfaces and knockdown. I was trying to avoid that crossover with acrobat. Grease immunity is a small benefit for lower levels where those mechanical dogs seem to be all over the place and it's still a decent bonus against griefers on high levels

I was having some trouble finding uses for the social skills, but in general they are somewhat useful as is and don't really need a buff. I was trying to find other interesting uses for them. I suppose that leaves the use for capped toons running lower content, but that's not unheard of. Plenty of people loot run lower content so it could see use, but like you said, the mobs could be struck down quickly anyway.

[eulogy098]

These ideas would take a ton of work from turbine, and offer zero profits, so I don't see there even being the slightest possibility of any of it ever happening.

But some of the ideas are really neat and would make skills more interesting so you get my bump.

[redspecter23]

These ideas would take a ton of work from turbine, and offer zero profits, so I don't see there even being the slightest possibility of any of it ever happening.

But some of the ideas are really neat and would make skills more interesting so you get my bump.

No profits? Think of all the Lesser Heart sales!

[joueur]

Concentration
20+ ranks: You may make a concentration check to keep from being interrupted while opening doors and pulling switches.

I want that.

[coolpenguin410]

I very much like this idea. I especially like the bonus for heal, repair, hide and move silently.

As others have said, you may need to tone them down a bit. I would like to keep them on par with what you suggested with Hide and Move Silently. Assuming they all stacked and stacked with the rogues' faster sneaking enhancements, you would almost move as fast as you would if you were not sneaking. And we all know how valuable sneaking is in groups, hardly overpowered, but a nice perk.

[redspecter23]

That was the goal with hide and move silently proposals. Basically if you max them and take enhancements as well, the hope is that you'll be sneaking well enough to keep up with most groups.

Heal and Repair got what I feel are the biggest perks because I believe they are 2 of the weakest skills in game. I could see clerics having a hard time figuring out where to spend skill points even to the point that they might take some intel points to fit everything in. Those kind of choices make for a good building experience in my opinion.

[JPDefault]

It saddens me that somebody doesn't care about skills. You know, every time you take a rank in Swim a penguin dies.
But seriously, I agree: the skill system needs some work.
Well, why not start with something taken from D&D for a change? I'm talking about skill synergy: in D&D if you have 5 or more ranks in Tumble you get a +2 bonus on Balance checks. That's just one example out of many.
But I guess every time Turbine implements something that is similar to D&D a penguin dies.

[Aelonwy]

Haggle
10+ ranks: For a brief 30 secs per rest duration, with long cooldown, can buy anything from vendors at base value.
(Idea is 30 seconds too short to run around to all vendors, a long cooldown plus having to shrine or stand in a tavern would keep it used for just necessities. Any higher of rank requirements and you can just about have a haggle high enough for the bonus to be unnecessary.)

Listen
10+ranks: you can tell how many enemies are within a certain radius.
20+ranks: the radius that you can discern number of enemies increases.

Spot
10+ ranks: -5% debuff on blurred enemies (?)
20+ ranks: -15% debuff on blurred or displaced enemies (making blur useless for enemies, decreasing troubles with displacement?)

Personally, I think the Spot & Listen skills, and the Hide & Move Silently skills should be combined into one skill for each set. I also really liked the ideas in AcesWylde's thread.

[redspecter23]

Haggle
10+ ranks: For a brief 30 secs per rest duration, with long cooldown, can buy anything from vendors at base value.
(Idea is 30 seconds too short to run around to all vendors, a long cooldown plus having to shrine or stand in a tavern would keep it used for just necessities. Any higher of rank requirements and you can just about have a haggle high enough for the bonus to be unnecessary.)

Listen
10+ranks: you can tell how many enemies are within a certain radius.
20+ranks: the radius that you can discern number of enemies increases.

Spot
10+ ranks: -5% debuff on blurred enemies (?)
20+ ranks: -15% debuff on blurred or displaced enemies (making blur useless for enemies, decreasing troubles with displacement?)

Personally, I think the Spot & Listen skills, and the Hide & Move Silently skills should be combined into one skill for each set. I also really liked the ideas in AcesWylde's thread.

The issue with haggle as you've proposed is that it doesn't matter what your total haggle skill is at that point, only that you have 10 ranks. It makes having a high haggle pointless. I think any bonus ability should be unrelated to actual buy/sell prices. In most of my proposals, it's still in the players best interest to keep the skill as high as possible in order to receive the best benefits.

I do think your listen proposal has merit, but again I'd make sure it's based on your listen skill. The issue is that one of the best uses for it is when you're swarmed with 20+ mobs and just want to know how many are on you. In this situation it doesn't make much sense that listen is really helping with that. One of my other thoughts was to make listen help blind fighting so if you were in a fog or blinded then you could still see outlines of mobs if your listen check was high enough.

Your spot proposal is also decent. It's a nice small buff that's mostly negated at endgame by having True Seeing anyway. Still useful for soloists. I might phrase it more along the lines of "your attacks do not miss due to concealment" so it's like a lesser true seeing.

[Morningfrost]

Haggle
10+ ranks: slight chance that the vendor will give you an extra discount/raise.
20+ ranks: slight chance that the vendor will give you a random weapon/item/drink, because you are such a good customer. Nothing really useful but nice for flavor.

My two cents. +1 for you.

[TheDjinnFor]

Balance
10+ ranks: You can make a balance check to avoid getting knocked down by trips, slippery surfaces, and other knockdown effects if your balance modifier is higher.
20+ ranks: You gain a toggle that while active will not allow you to walk off of edges (this would allow you to run full speed over tightrope like objects or circle the demon queen without ever accidentally falling into the lava).

Bluff
10+ ranks: Your bluff range is slightly increased based on your total bluff modifier.
20+ ranks: If you succeed your bluff by 20 or more, your target becomes absolutely enthralled by something "over there". The target acts as if held for 6 seconds. (red named would be subject to sneak attack but not the +50% damage of course)

Concentration
10+ ranks: Your movement speed penalty while using spells and abilities is decreased based on your total concentration modifier.
20+ ranks: You may make a concentration check to keep from being interrupted during actions other than spellcasting, including pulling leavers or opening chests.

Diplomacy
10+ ranks: Your diplomacy range is slightly increased based on your total diplomacy modifier.
20+ ranks: You gain a toggle ability. While on, if your diplomacy succeeds by 20 or more, your targets flee as though under the effect of a fear spell. (the idea is you are so good at convincing your foes not to attack you, they just decide to leave the battle altogether)

Disable Device
10+ ranks: You disable devices faster based on your total disable device modifier.
20+ ranks: You can activate this toggleable ability to take 10 on all disable device checks.

Haggle
10+ ranks: no proposed changes.
20+ ranks: no proposed changes.

Heal
10+ ranks: You may use a healers kit to make a heal check (heal skill +1d20) to help yourself or an ally shrug off a fortitude-based affliction, like poison or disease, against the DC they originally made to attempt to save from it.
20+ ranks: Using a healers kit, you may apply a short term buff to yourself or an ally. The next time they receive positive healing while the buff is active they receive X% additional healing amplification for 6 seconds. X is equal to your heal skill.

Hide
10+ ranks: Your speed while sneaking increases based on your total hide modifier.
20+ ranks: You can hide in plain sight: enemies cannot see you while you are sneaking if you do not move.

Intimidate
10+ ranks: Your intimidate range is slightly increased based on your total intimidate modifier.
20+ ranks: If your intimidate succeeds by 20 or more, your targets are frozen in place as if effected by mummy fear for 6 seconds (the number is subject to change. The basic idea is that if you're running lower content or facing enemies that you severely outmatch that they would be subject to this ability).

Jump
10+ ranks: you may tumble while jumping (this is more for coolness factor than actual distance and assumes you have the necessary tumble skill)
20+ ranks: you may jump while tumbling

Listen
10+ ranks: If your listen skill is high enough to hear the enemy, you can 'see' the footprint effect through walls and other visual barriers, including blindness effects like from the spells Blindness and Glitterdust.
20+ ranks: You have a chance to negate the effects of blur, displacement, and other concealment effects based on your total Listen modifier.

Move Silently
10+ ranks: Your speed while sneaking increases based off of your total move silently modifier.
20+ ranks: You can move silently even while not sneaking at a -20 penalty. This has no effect if the enemy can see you.

Open Lock
10+ ranks: You open locks faster based on your total open locks modifier.
20+ ranks: You can activate this toggle-able ability to take 10 on all open lock checks.

Perform
10+ ranks: No change (great for bards, sucks for everyone else, and it's fine that way).
20+ ranks: No change (same as above).

Repair
10+ ranks: You may use a repair kit to attempt to maintain an allies gear; the chances of taking permanent damage the next time is reduced based on your total repair modifier.
20+ ranks: Using a repair kit, you may apply a short term buff to yourself or an ally. The next time they receive a repair effect while the buff is active they receive X% additional repair amplification for 6 seconds. X is equal to your repair skill.

Search
10+ ranks: You search faster based on your total search modifier.
20+ ranks: Hmmm....

Spot
10+ ranks: When you sense a secret door, trap, or other hidden object with a successful spot check, the direction of the hidden item is shown to you.
20+ ranks: You have a chance of negating extra damage from sneak attacks based on your spot modifier (I don't even know if mobs can get sneak attacks on you, but whatever).

Swim
10+ ranks: You can propel yourself through the water. This ability is similar to monk or favored soul's leaping ability. The distance is based on your swim skill.
20+ ranks: You may hold your breath near indefinitely (your breath meter will tick down at the same rate warforged used to, about 3 hours to drown) and are immune to exhaustion and fatigue.

Tumble
(I propose an additional change for tumble. Instead of making it a passive ability that you activate by holding block and moving, could it be made an activated ability I can drag onto my bar?)
10+ ranks: You may tumble through enemies as though they were not there.
20+ ranks: While tumbling through enemies you have a % chance to attack one of them. The % is equal to your tumble skill.

Umd
10+ ranks: no proposed changes.
20+ ranks: no proposed changes.

My two cents. You had a lot of good ideas to begin with, so I just built on it.

[le_goat]

While your at it have them combine hide and move silently.

if your hiding , you tend to move silently

if your moving silently, you probably dont want to be seen.

just call it stealth and be done with it.

[redspecter23]

My two cents. You had a lot of good ideas to begin with, so I just built on it.

I like the most of the minor tweaks. I'll add many of your suggestions to the original post. Thanks.