Make AC work in Epics

[Quarterling]

Hey Turbine, let's see what you say about Thief Acrobats.

These lively rogues are skilled combatants and are extremely difficult to pin down in battle. They are unequaled in their ability to avoid damage from enemies.

"Unequaled in their ability to avoid damage from enemies?" I demand getting an AC higher than any monk or exploiter build without breaking a sweat, unless... you lie in your description? Perhaps some tweaking of the PrE and the addition of the third tier will come soon.

And yeah, Turbine really does need to make AC viable in epics.

[grodon9999]

Hey Turbine, let's see what you say about Thief Acrobats.



"Unequaled in their ability to avoid damage from enemies?" I demand getting an AC higher than any monk or exploiter build without breaking a sweat, unless... you lie in your description? Perhaps some tweaking of the PrE and the addition of the third tier will come soon.

And yeah, Turbine really does need to make AC viable in epics.

Take a monk level and that acrobat is the 100 AC halfling freak I'm referring to. It also can't generate threat (why the hell would it want to?) so it should be taken out of the equation regarding AC thresholds.

[Quarterling]

Take a monk level and that acrobat is the 100 AC halfling freak I'm referring to. It also can't generate threat (why the hell would it want to?) so it should be taken out of the equation regarding AC thresholds.

Well, this is the build I have planned out so far, except with two levels of monk.

[Wizard_Zero]

For 95% of the game, a really good AC toon, with great gear is 100% invincible. It's like putting your very own cheat code in for invincibility. You just can't die, and there is no challenge. Anyone that has super high AC toons can attest to this, there is no challenge whatsoever, and that toon probably hasn't been killed in a regular dungeon in years. Amarth was the last barrier to overcome, and many people are near invincible in there too, at least on Normal.

The problem is that Turbine made AC too powerful. They let people get 95% miss chance through most of the game and still do great DPS (Prime example is Monk Class). Then you have some classes that can never reach the AC of other classes without displacing very important gear or feats or enhancements, ect.

Another big problem is grind/gear. You have people running around with 70+ standard, because they played for years to grind out what they need. Then you have many other players who struggle to get to the 50s or 60s and then give up entirely on AC, because they think it never would make a difference. I seen one Monk with high AC, think they had like 83 or so (not even sure how they got it), add Displacement, and they were taking a lot less damage. So I know 83 AC is at least good for some of the Epic content.

You can make toon with AC that matters on Epic, just depends on how much time you want to invest. Sure you won't be missed everytime, but add a Displacement to your AC and you are taking a lot less damage. You might have to lower your DPS, but no one should be a DPS machine and be un-hit-able.

I know you can get 100+ AC on tanks, but then you sacrifice a lot of DPS and I'm not sure you can maintain 100+ AC throughout a dungeon and be effective DPS, even though some people claim they can.

[elraido]

For 95% of the game, a really good AC toon, with great gear is 100% invincible. It's like putting your very own cheat code in for invincibility. You just can't die, and there is no challenge. Anyone that has super high AC toons can attest to this, there is no challenge whatsoever, and that toon probably hasn't been killed in a regular dungeon in years. Amarth was the last barrier to overcome, and many people are near invincible in there too, at least on Normal.

The problem is that Turbine made AC too powerful. They let people get 95% miss chance through most of the game and still do great DPS (Prime example is Monk Class). Then you have some classes that can never reach the AC of other classes without displacing very important gear or feats or enhancements, ect.

Another big problem is grind/gear. You have people running around with 70+ standard, because they played for years to grind out what they need. Then you have many other players who struggle to get to the 50s or 60s and then give up entirely on AC, because they think it never would make a difference. I seen one Monk with high AC, think they had like 83 or so (not even sure how they got it), add Displacement, and they were taking a lot less damage. So I know 83 AC is at least good for some of the Epic content.

You can make toon with AC that matters on Epic, just depends on how much time you want to invest. Sure you won't be missed everytime, but add a Displacement to your AC and you are taking a lot less damage. You might have to lower your DPS, but no one should be a DPS machine and be un-hit-able.

I know you can get 100+ AC on tanks, but then you sacrifice a lot of DPS and I'm not sure you can maintain 100+ AC throughout a dungeon and be effective DPS, even though some people claim they can.

Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you even have a toon with a decent ac?

My main has been in epic content with a 90 ac. In epic house D, I was getting hit EVERY SINGLE TIME by most monsters.

Second of all, AC doesn't mean you are invincible. There are these things called casters out there. AC doesn't mean anything to them.

And to get that 100 ac on 99% of the toons out there, that is a 20 second thing. What good is that going to do? Nothing.

I am also going to guess that the builds out there that do show a super high ac, are rarely built. So that 1% of the player population that does have one isn't breaking anything.

I know my main is anything but invincible. Yes, his survivability is good....a couple of times he was literally the last guy standing attacking and killing the shadow fiend in part II of TOD....but that "uberness" is only a short short time and gives me a limited window to kill him. He will still die....and quickly on epics if he tries to go toe to toe with anything.

[grodon9999]

For 95% of the game, a really good AC toon, with great gear is 100% invincible. It's like putting your very own cheat code in for invincibility. You just can't die, and there is no challenge. Anyone that has super high AC toons can attest to this, there is no challenge whatsoever, and that toon probably hasn't been killed in a regular dungeon in years. Amarth was the last barrier to overcome, and many people are near invincible in there too, at least on Normal.

How is that different from a self-healing WF caster? it also takes a hell of a lot more grind for the AC guy to get to that point.

The problem is that Turbine made AC too powerful. They let people get 95% miss chance through most of the game and still do great DPS (Prime example is Monk Class). Then you have some classes that can never reach the AC of other classes without displacing very important gear or feats or enhancements, ect.


Another big problem is grind/gear. You have people running around with 70+ standard, because they played for years to grind out what they need. Then you have many other players who struggle to get to the 50s or 60s and then give up entirely on AC, because they think it never would make a difference. I seen one Monk with high AC, think they had like 83 or so (not even sure how they got it), add Displacement, and they were taking a lot less damage. So I know 83 AC is at least good for some of the Epic content.

Say hello to grazing hits, nothing is invulnerable.

If people choose not to gear for it it's their choice and none of this will affect them.

Every piece of gear you slot, level you take, stat-point you allocate for AC lowers your DPS. 83 AC does NOTHING in epics.

You can make toon with AC that matters on Epic, just depends on how much time you want to invest. Sure you won't be missed everytime, but add a Displacement to your AC and you are taking a lot less damage. You might have to lower your DPS, but no one should be a DPS machine and be un-hit-able.

No you cannot, not unless you want to make something useless that generates 0 threat and has ***** damage. 90 AC is as good as zero against trash.

I know you can get 100+ AC on tanks, but then you sacrifice a lot of DPS and I'm not sure you can maintain 100+ AC throughout a dungeon and be effective DPS, even though some people claim they can.

You cannot get 100 AC on anything SUSTAINABLE that can generate any threat, that's a BS number. Show me a build that isn't garbage that can hit and sustain that.

[LeLoric]

Take a monk level and that acrobat is the 100 AC halfling freak I'm referring to. It also can't generate threat (why the hell would it want to?) so it should be taken out of the equation regarding AC thresholds.

You haven't seen me tank on my rogue have you? Was 18 rog/1monk/1ftr and often tanked sully against epic claw geared characters. He's now tr'ing to 13 rog 6 ftr 1 monk and gaining enough hp/fort save to tank elite horoth.

[Khanyth]

I just want my AC to work PERIOD. My house is just too **** hot.

Heeheeheeheeehee....

The joke is the 2nd sentance.... but hte first sentance still stands

[grodon9999]

You haven't seen me tank on my rogue have you? Was 18 rog/1monk/1ftr and often tanked sully against epic claw geared characters. He's now tr'ing to 13 rog 6 ftr 1 monk and gaining enough hp/fort save to tank elite horoth.

Nope, the only time I ran VoD with your rogue my elf tanked so you could get your sneak attack. I think that was after the barbarian died of course

Don't want to go too far off topic but did you have threat enhancing gear? If not how much of a head-start did you need?

[Krago]

Let me see if I understand, you want to make AC builds with 40-50 AC more viable by dropping the to-hit bonus lower for mobs?

Then why would any toons built on AC try and keep the 70-80 AC if 40-50 is just as good? I would drop my AC gear for DPS in a heart beat if all I had to do was get 50 and be fine.

This invariably skews toward DPS toons rather than AC geared ones in my view.

[Merlocke]

make Ac Work In Epics

/signed

[LeLoric]

Nope, the only time I ran VoD with your rogue my elf tanked so you could get your sneak attack. I think that was after the barbarian died of course

Don't want to go too far off topic but did you have threat enhancing gear? If not how much of a head-start did you need?

Yeah I often did that lol. But he can tank and has a lot of times.

I don't have claw set for aggro as I don't want it to be permanant. A single haste boosts worth of threat was enough to keep it for the bulk of the fight. With intim its only that much easier now and I will have Stalwart 1 stance and brute fighting with new build making it much easier to just go from the start.

Granted Im a str based rog (all level ups in str). 40 unbuffed str with 46 running full time buffs (rage,yugo, ship). And I tank In Power attack.

My ac is more the 90-95 sustainable range not 100 but thats plenty for what I wanna do.

[LeLoric]

Epic grazing hits are still pretty significant.

I would say lower the attack bonus of epic mobs to somewhere around 75-80.

Because of all the stacking dps gear nowadays it is really a significant dps loss to hit the 85 ac mark on most any character.

Sure 95 -100 ac would negate a lot of hits. Give grazing hits on 11-19 for epic.

[Yajerman01]

Nothing's impossible.

Try lighting a match on a wet bar of soap.

[Wizard_Zero]

Sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about. Do you even have a toon with a decent ac?

My main has been in epic content with a 90 ac. In epic house D, I was getting hit EVERY SINGLE TIME by most monsters.

Second of all, AC doesn't mean you are invincible. There are these things called casters out there. AC doesn't mean anything to them.

And to get that 100 ac on 99% of the toons out there, that is a 20 second thing. What good is that going to do? Nothing.

I am also going to guess that the builds out there that do show a super high ac, are rarely built. So that 1% of the player population that does have one isn't breaking anything.

I know my main is anything but invincible. Yes, his survivability is good....a couple of times he was literally the last guy standing attacking and killing the shadow fiend in part II of TOD....but that "uberness" is only a short short time and gives me a limited window to kill him. He will still die....and quickly on epics if he tries to go toe to toe with anything.

There have been 100s of fourm post about making AC in Epic useful. 80 AC or so is when you start to see "Miss," everyone says something different. At least this is what I read on the forums, so I'm bound by the general consensus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehDHC12R19A

The to-hit-ratio has not been dramatically raised since this video was made, unless I missed something. Even if you get missed 20% of the time, it better than being hit 100%. With a 90 AC, you should be missed at least sometimes, you should be seeing some kind of "miss."

I never make a toon without Evasion, casters aren't even a threat to me. Even Epic, you can dodge many of their spells, because they are saved based.

I know AC is broken for most of the game, because I built AC+DPS toons. Easy example is to solo a quest with your best AC toon, you should never die, unless your toon is gimp. Now use that same toon and take off all the AC gear and try to solo the same exact dungeon, there will be a world of difference.

I don't want Epic to turn into Amarth, where you got people running around nearly untouchable. Epic is supposed to be challenging, even though I question if it's really difficult anymore, I haven't failed an Epic in forever, but that's a whole different debate and forum topic.

The question is, what specifically do you want Turbine to do about Epic? What point do you want AC to become "effective?" 60s? 70s? 80s? 90s? At what AC should a monster miss 95% of the time?

[Phidius]

You should change the thread's title to

Make Grazing Hits work in Epics

It seems like such a shame for them to put so much work into a system that doesn't see any use in epics.

[grodon9999]

My ac is more the 90-95 sustainable range not 100 but thats plenty for what I wanna do.

Break that down when you can, I believe you I'm just not sure how you're getting that on a STR-based Horc running power-attack.

What will the HP cap out with yugo pot?.

Stalwart 1 and Brute fighting should be fine.

[grodon9999]

The question is, what specifically do you want Turbine to do about Epic? What point do you want AC to become "effective?" 60s? 70s? 80s? 90s? At what AC should a monster miss 95% of the time?

I would take the to-hit from Elite Amrath and add 5-10 depending on the mob. I'd also make the mobs/bosses scarier.

I tanked Elite Sulu last night in Tower on a far-from-optimal toon (we were doing 3 Elite runs and had to make do with what was available) and it was by far more difficult than the CAD from eChrono even at 90 AC getting me missed most of the time.

[Seikojin]

I think this may help:
1. When using a shield, you should be immune to grazing hits. Or close to it.
2. Apply passive DR to armor types. Stacks with sheild bonus. So clothes would offer +0%, Light +5%, Medium +10%, heavy +15% or +20%. Before material bonuses change the class. So mithril full plate would still offer the 15 or 20%.
3. Maybe add some passive fortification boosting per armor type as well. Not 100%, but something like an additional 5% fort from Medium ad 10% for heavy. Or reduce the fortification bypass some mobs have...

I didn't read the other thread. So if my ideas are mirrored in there, my bad.

[grodon9999]

I don't want Epic to turn into Amarth, where you got people running around nearly untouchable. Epic is supposed to be challenging, even though I question if it's really difficult anymore, I haven't failed an Epic in forever, but that's a whole different debate and forum topic.

I just caught this - do you agree or disagree that Amrath on Elite is harder than most, if not all epics?