Make AC work in Epics

[Thucydides04]

Quite frankly, I would be happy if a dev would take the time to post their position on AC and how they see it playing out in the future. If what I heard is true and the devs do not want AC to play an iontegral role, I would like to know that information so that I can respec my ac toons into something more useful and I buy my Hearts of Wood with TP.

[Chai]

Making AC work against bosses is impossible without making them too trivial for certain players with the max ACs. So it won't happen. The d20 system, even when doubled to 40 like minion AC, just is far too simple system, far too easy to exploit.

This is only true because Turbine put so many stacking adjectives for it in the game, just as they did for strength. I dont see anyone complaining about stacking strength adjectives however. My office pool is still out on what the next rediculous adjective will be that gets used for the new str buff. The last one was "profane" LOL.

[Junts]

LOL.

I dont agree. The only reason your statements are true is because AC is worthless unless you have a full investment. In a game where AC isnt worthless, damage mitigation is just as useful as damage production.

This whole "max DPS is the only way" mentality is the easy way out, and was absolutely false until epics were put in. Heck, people still solo raids on exploiter builds and other monk splashes - while middle of the road DPS, are decent AC enough to manage not dying instantly while going toe to toe with a raid boss, which is what will happen to most of these full DPS no defense toons if they fail at playing their build like a rogue to never have aggro.

I play a very, very high ac character.

However, mitigation and offense aren't created equal in normal questing, because there are a lot of external sources of mitigation, especially in the form of aoe crowd control, but there is no substitute for killing except .. killing .. due to dungeon alert.

I don't believe max dps is the only way, and in fact you're welcome to visit myddo and notice none of my characters is built in that fashion. However, I acknowledge that efficiency is extremely important, because I am a powergamer, and mitigation and offense are not created equally from an efficiency standpoint. When you have people to web/hold/etc the mobs, mitigation is unimportant but its still necessary to kill them, and kiling them quickly is the only way to reduce the amount of repetitious grind required to play DDO's endgame to a managable, sanity-retaining level.

Iv'e run something like 90 epic into the deeps. I'd love if my ac character could really tank the demon of frenzied blood. But i wouldn't run through the quest with my 90 ac even if i could, becuase the quest would take forever and even if i didn't take any damage, the difference between doing 15-20m runs and 25-30m runs is a huge amount of my time.

The key to making ac viable on DDO isn't to make it overpowered damage reduction that permits people to solo in silly ways like it used to. Its to create quests and situations where mitigating damage makes the raid faster/easier/more efficient than they are when done brute-force style, much like having an ac tank for tower can often make it faster because you bring less healers and consequently more total party dps.

On a wholly practical level, if it isn't at least as fast if not faster than doing it the other way, the endgame won't embrace it because time is an extremely important resource when you have to run quests dozens of times to make a single thing.

[Aesop]

[b]
On a wholly practical level, if it isn't at least as fast if not faster than doing it the other way, the endgame won't embrace it because time is an extremely important resource when you have to run quests dozens of times to make a single thing.

Yeah speed is king...

I wonder...


What do you think of a Feat (or something) called Riposte.


Riposte
When a melee attack misses the character by 5 or more the character immediately gains a counter attack. On incoming attacks that auto fail from rolling a Natural 1 the character also gains a counter attack regardless of the degree by which the attacker missed.


This doesn't really help make middling AC better but it would give superlative AC a bonus... too much? Still have to hit. and superlative AC usually needs something like a DPS boost especially since they still take damage most of the time.

Aesop

[Thucydides04]

Yeah speed is king...

I wonder...


What do you think of a Feat (or something) called Riposte.


Riposte
When a melee attack misses the character by 5 or more the character immediately gains a counter attack. On incoming attacks that auto fail from rolling a Natural 1 the character also gains a counter attack regardless of the degree by which the attacker missed.


This doesn't really help make middling AC better but it would give superlative AC a bonus... too much? Still have to hit. and superlative AC usually needs something like a DPS boost especially since they still take damage most of the time.

Aesop

Would be nice except there is no superlative level of ac in the game right now (at least in a meaningful sustainable build). AC of 90+ is still useless, so ac builds would never get their counterattack... at least in epics where there are over hp'd mobs.

[grodon9999]

FYI: When you put nonsense like this into your suggestions, thats when most devs stop..

Epic trash may be a joke now to a lot of players. But bosses haven't changed, and epic bosses have always been quite hard.
. . .

Are you high? Seriously the raid bossed are all a joke. Most don't even have true-seeing and have an attack animals that's slow and exactly matches the cool-down of a heal scroll.

[grodon9999]

And fyi: AC already works fine versus the trash. The minion debuff still exists, and gives them a huge penalty to attack, making double the range of armor class work. So anywhere from 60-100 AC is effective in epics against trash. Sure it's not like casual mode where 70 AC makes your immune to damag,e but it does somewhat reduce the damge you take, and thats all its ever intended to do.

This is ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!

[Chai]

I play a very, very high ac character.

However, mitigation and offense aren't created equal in normal questing, because there are a lot of external sources of mitigation, especially in the form of aoe crowd control, but there is no substitute for killing except .. killing .. due to dungeon alert.

I don't believe max dps is the only way, and in fact you're welcome to visit myddo and notice none of my characters is built in that fashion. However, I acknowledge that efficiency is extremely important, because I am a powergamer, and mitigation and offense are not created equally from an efficiency standpoint. When you have people to web/hold/etc the mobs, mitigation is unimportant but its still necessary to kill them, and kiling them quickly is the only way to reduce the amount of repetitious grind required to play DDO's endgame to a managable, sanity-retaining level.

Iv'e run something like 90 epic into the deeps. I'd love if my ac character could really tank the demon of frenzied blood. But i wouldn't run through the quest with my 90 ac even if i could, becuase the quest would take forever and even if i didn't take any damage, the difference between doing 15-20m runs and 25-30m runs is a huge amount of my time.

The key to making ac viable on DDO isn't to make it overpowered damage reduction that permits people to solo in silly ways like it used to. Its to create quests and situations where mitigating damage makes the raid faster/easier/more efficient than they are when done brute-force style, much like having an ac tank for tower can often make it faster because you bring less healers and consequently more total party dps.

On a wholly practical level, if it isn't at least as fast if not faster than doing it the other way, the endgame won't embrace it because time is an extremely important resource when you have to run quests dozens of times to make a single thing.

I still feel that the progression of how AC is useful should match the progression of how strength is useful. Right now it absolutely does not.

I understand the way powergamers view time investment in DDO, but this is not the way the majority plays the game. This is the way the grinders play the game.

I dont see them putting situations into epics that makes AC useful because most epics are still rehashed old quests where ac isnt useful. It becomes acceptable to me when having 70 str is as useful as having 70 AC, or in the more accurate sense, the ratio of str increase to the ratio of AC increase makes the toon equally MORE useful than it was before. Increasing str from 60 to 70 -vs- increasing AC from 60 to 70. One means hitting more and doing more damage, and the other means absolutely nothing. This is why the mentality that DPS is the only useful tool to build for in all case scenarios prevails at endgame. The same degree of increase doesnt equal the same return of usefulness. This needs to change for defensive minded gaming to have a seat at the table.

And dont get me started on DA, LOL.

[grodon9999]

I play a very, very high ac character.

However, mitigation and offense aren't created equal in normal questing, because there are a lot of external sources of mitigation, especially in the form of aoe crowd control, but there is no substitute for killing except .. killing .. due to dungeon alert.

I don't believe max dps is the only way, and in fact you're welcome to visit myddo and notice none of my characters is built in that fashion. However, I acknowledge that efficiency is extremely important, because I am a powergamer, and mitigation and offense are not created equally from an efficiency standpoint. When you have people to web/hold/etc the mobs, mitigation is unimportant but its still necessary to kill them, and kiling them quickly is the only way to reduce the amount of repetitious grind required to play DDO's endgame to a managable, sanity-retaining level.

Iv'e run something like 90 epic into the deeps. I'd love if my ac character could really tank the demon of frenzied blood. But i wouldn't run through the quest with my 90 ac even if i could, becuase the quest would take forever and even if i didn't take any damage, the difference between doing 15-20m runs and 25-30m runs is a huge amount of my time.

The key to making ac viable on DDO isn't to make it overpowered damage reduction that permits people to solo in silly ways like it used to. Its to create quests and situations where mitigating damage makes the raid faster/easier/more efficient than they are when done brute-force style, much like having an ac tank for tower can often make it faster because you bring less healers and consequently more total party dps.

On a wholly practical level, if it isn't at least as fast if not faster than doing it the other way, the endgame won't embrace it because time is an extremely important resource when you have to run quests dozens of times to make a single thing.

To be honest, I'd more than likely keep my full DPS-gear on at all times as well, I'd just like to have other options available.

[Junts]

I still feel that the progression of how AC is useful should match the progression of how strength is useful. Right now it absolutely does not.

I understand the way powergamers view time investment in DDO, but this is not the way the majority plays the game. This is the way the grinders play the game.

I dont see them putting situations into epics that makes AC useful because most epics are still rehashed old quests where ac isnt useful. It becomes acceptable to me when having 70 str is as useful as having 70 AC, or in the more accurate sense, the ratio of str increase to the ratio of AC increase makes the toon equally MORE useful than it was before. Increasing str from 60 to 70 -vs- increasing AC from 60 to 70. One means hitting more and doing more damage, and the other means absolutely nothing. This is why the mentality that DPS is the only useful tool to build for in all case scenarios prevails at endgame. The same degree of increase doesnt equal the same return of usefulness. This needs to change for defensive minded gaming to have a seat at the table.

And dont get me started on DA, LOL.

What are you talking about? AC is borderline overpowered in the non-epic versions of most content we have epic variants of. The vons, the red fens, chains of flame, offering of blood .. all of those are quests made gigantically easier by having a good armor class when you do them at-level, especially the ones line the desert with very high rof archer mobs.

What you point out is only one of the problems with armor class, but it is certainly an issue.

[Aesop]

Would be nice except there is no superlative level of ac in the game right now (at least in a meaningful sustainable build). AC of 90+ is still useless, so ac builds would never get their counterattack... at least in epics where there are over hp'd mobs.

Well lets throw some more things out there and see what sticks to the wall.


How about removing Dodge Bonuses from AC and instead make them a sort of miss chance and then lower to hit bonuses by a large margin.


So instead of Dodge granting 1AC it would grant 1% miss Chance... or some other proportion. Maybe to make Dodge a more useful feat it might be a 5% thingy.

Dodge items 1/2/3/4/5 total to 15%

make these stack with things like Blur... or a separate roll if need be.

Drop to hit bonuses at higher levels.




Alternately make Dodge Mitigation instead of Miss chance.
still drop the To Hit bonuses by a significant margin.


Aesop

[Krago]

Armor types grant DR?
Robes = nothing.
Full Plate = usable.

Might just bring back brigadine or scale mail. Toons pick AC or DR.