Suggestion to Balance Metamagics Across Levels

[Joseph]

Under the new spell point system, metamagics are very much out of line with where they should be (from a balance perspective), as in the example of a 4 point empowered and maximized level one spell costing stupid amounts of spell points to maximize for almost no returns when compared with a level nine spell.

I'm using the feats [Empower and Maximize for this example, but a similar concept applies equally to other metamagic feats. I realize there have been several other threads on the subject, but I did not want this to be buried.

To balance this, I would like to suggest that the feats should have a flat cost associated with the spell level, such as:

Suggestion One (by spell level):

Empower

• Your spells do 50% more damage, at the cost of 2 additional mana per spell level (maximum cost to empower a level 9 spell would be 18 mana, less enhancement reductions - this is only three points higher than the current base of fifteen points to empower).
• Regardless of metamagic enhancements, spell cost for empower must always be at least 6 mana.

Maximize

• Your spells do 100% more damage, at the cost of 3 additional mana per spell level (maximum cost to maximize a level 9 spell would be 27 mana, less enhancement reductions - this is only two points higher than the current base of fifteen points to maximize).
• Regardless of metamagic enhancements, spell cost for empower must always be at least 7 mana.

Suggestion Two (by caster level):

Empower

• Your spells do 50% more damage, at the cost of 2 additional mana per caster level, up to a maximum of 18 at caster level 9 (maximum cost to empower a spell at caster level 9 would be 18 mana, less enhancement reductions - this is only three points higher than the current base of fifteen points to empower).
• Regardless of metamagic enhancements, spell cost for empower must always be at least 6 mana.

Maximize

• Your spells do 100% more damage, at the cost of 3 additional mana per caster level (maximum cost to maximize a spell at caster level 9 would be 27 mana, less enhancement reductions - this is only two points higher than the current base of fifteen points to maximize).
• Regardless of metamagic enhancements, spell cost for empower must always be at least 7 mana.

With the new reductions in spell point costs, this is almost exactly the system in place now, and would only require adjusting the existing feats to benefit lower level casters. It would balance out the lower level use of these feats, and only slightly increase the higher level use of these feats. With the current (huge) reduction in spell costs, the extra few points to maximize or empower would balance itself out - improving the feats at lower levels, and keeping them as they are at higher levels.

Enhancements and items would then further reduce that cost in the same manner they currently do, requiring no additional balancing, change, or extra code work on part of the development team (or server hamsters).

*** Good point raised by Xenostrata ***

We would not want low level spells costing nothing to maximize.

Check out Suggestion Two In this way it becomes impossible for a caster to get 'free' spells, as total caster level is examined when looking at metamagics and their application - so you would have to pay the fee for spell points irrespective of any splash or other levels. One could tie a minimum cost to activate metamagics (much like necro abilities, etc).

Godzilla would love it.

[ProdigalGuru]

27 minus 15 does not equal 2, even with "new math".


Also, this might not be a great time to suggest casters getting more efficiency.

[Xenostrata]

Maximize requires 25 extra sp, which is in fact 2 less than 27.

There is some wrong math in empower (18-5=3, not two) but that can be chocked up to a type.

I mostly like it, but problems could be raised about reductions to metamagic costs (items, enhancement) reducing the cost to 0 for lower level spells, effectively making them SLAs. Maybe it would work better with a starting static amount, dependent on the feat - like 5 +1.5x for empower, and 10+2x for maximize. Similar effects for higher level spells, but it would not result in free metas for lower level ones.

[Joseph]

27 minus 15 does not equal 2, even with "new math".

You lost me (but then I'm just having my morning coffee)... current cost for Maximize is 25 SP. I suggested a proposed Maximize cost of spell level times 3 (which would be 3*9, which last I checked was 27, minus the existing cost of 25) which would make it 2 extra spell points to cast a maximized level 9 spell.

Also, this might not be a great time to suggest casters getting more efficiency.

Actually, it is the BEST time - as suggesting any possible changes now, as opposed to AFTER they have been considered (remember, the devs are usually two repeases ahead of us) is the ideal time.

[ProdigalGuru]

Your OP claims that both cost 15, read it and you will see what I am talking about.

As for the efficiency thing, casters just got quite a bit more, and some melee types are already bent out of shape over it. Not a good time to rock the boat.

[Joseph]

Your OP claims that both cost 15, read it and you will see what I am talking about.

Reading comprehension fail. Please go troll elsewhere if you can't find justifiable arguments to discredit my suggestion.

Nowhere in the OP, before or after edits, did I ever imply that both cost 15. I have been playing since head start (minus significant time in Afghanistan - but the metamagics haven't changed), and used to be a VERY vocal member of the community (before the great forum purge). At that time I almost exclusively played arcane casters. In other words, at no time that I have played this game would I have ever implied that both cost 15 SP. Both of my top old characters were casters Sorc (first 1750 favor character) and Wiz (first 8 con character - head start and discovering DDO was not D&D)

No offense intended - but maybe a gentle slap, as your initial post was both incorrect and slightly insulting, your follow up post was patently false. As X pointed out, there was a minor math error - which has since been corrected (and noted to X), but it was absolutely not what you described. Have a re-read (again, presumably).

As for the efficiency thing, casters just got quite a bit more, and some melee types are already bent out of shape over it. Not a good time to rock the boat.

Presumably you are one of the melee types bent out of shape over it (the reading comprehension fail was a dead giveaway )?

Broken is broken, regardless of what it is. At present, just as an example:

Level One Spell - Burning Hands
04 point spell cost = 4 damage (max base damage)
19 point spell cost if empowered = 6 damage (max base damage +50%)
29 point spell cost if maximized = 8 damage (max base damage +100%)
44 point spell cost if maximized and empowered = 10 damage (max base damage +50% +100%)

In other words, 11 times the cost for 6 extra damage, and you are suggesting that 'now is not the time to rock the boat'?

What I am suggesting is that when something is broken, it be fixed. Yes, casters are 'more powerful than before' and casters can 'solo quests' - but are you saying that based on personal experience, or are you saying that as a disgruntled melee who has lost kill counts to casters?

Before U9 - Firewall was the spell of choice, across the board. Casters ran in, dropped a few firewalls, and everything died. That was it. If you did not have Firewall and Haste as an Arcane, your role in a party was in question.

After U9 there is a much greater variance of spells cast (technically anything other than Firewall would constitute a 'much greater variance' to spells). Your implying that the melee crowd is upset and should not be disturbed now implies that the developers of the game have no statistical data to back up spell use and spell cost over a given series of quests, and arbitrarily applied spell costs without considering the consequences (not that it is impossible they didn't have statistical data, just extremely unlikely - and if you doubt it, have a look at some of the statistical data modern test programs can mine from an application and it's use - the latest Star Wars developer posts from Bioware have some good graphical examples).

Rather than 'not rock the boat' I would prefer to address the problem - starting with a proposed balance to the metamagics to bring them more in line with the new spell costs (as metamagics are part of the problem). How could you possibly 'balance' spell power and mana consumption over the life of a quest when maximize and empower completely destroy a level one caster's mana to damage ratio - yet have far less effect on a level 10 caster's mana to damage ratio?

Finally - I am not sure who you run with, but when I PUG, there are VERY few casters that 'destroy' quests. The casters I see destroying things are knowledgeable players who use tactics, a solid build, and good gear.

Roll up a 28 point arcane standard race (if you don't have standard races, dump your excess build points in strength or intelligence - and put extra skill points you would not have otherwise had in a skill like swim). Do your best to build one of these 'great' casters that 'destroy' everything. Go out and PUG a bit. See how you do (as an experienced player who knows the game). See how much you can solo and how far you can get on that awesome mana pool you have. Keep in mind that Korthos Quests don't count because they are ALL easy button quests.

When you do this, you will learn that it is not as easy as some of the more experienced players make it look. You can't judge the entire game from a limited window of experience (meaning, if you are an experienced player, you can't judge the game based on your experiences alone - because new players absolutely do not have your skills, experience, or equipment).

DDO is a twitch game - and it rewards twitch play. The better twitch player you are, the better you will do. MANY people do not get this - they are used to the button mash that is EQ, LOTRO, WOW, or similar games. Holding shift to block, or dodging a ray spell is a new thing for them - and as a result they are typically terrible casters.

I would rather see balance and improved utility over 'not rocking the boat' so that Melee characters don't get +10 to hit again, and casters don't get boosted, and then things get more out of balance (like they have done from time to time).

As it stands now, I challenge you to show me how any low level caster feat even comes close to the utility of Cleave, as just one example:
Cleave (hit multiple enemies with full weapon and damage effects - just like a Burning hands spell with no need to empower or maximize, and the ability to 'cast' it every few seconds and damage everything in more or less almost the same range as a burning hands spell - you know, the spell that does 4 damage at level one).
Power Attack (if you have a high strength, you can do extra damage every swing for the entire quest at a penalty to your ability to hit.

The only two melee feats I can really think of that are regularly used (in other words, not precision and not resilience) that compare to Empower and Maximize would be Combat Expertise and Power Attack. Both feats barely scale (Combat Expertise doesn't scale at all - and it should), where Power Attack scales to do more damage at the cost of more to hit (by way of enhancements). Even then there is still little comparison.

In the case of both CE and PA abilities you trade roughly less than 20% of your ability (to hit traded for AC or Damage) for an equal increase of roughly 20% in the other (obviously as you level, this scales - but for the sake of limiting pointless and unintelligent argument on the subject, assume 20AC with your PA, and assume base D20 at 50% = 10+1BAB+4Str Bonus = 15 To Hit at level one) Just average sample examples - all, of course, involving 'new math'.

A level one spell caster, we can assume, will have around 200 spell points (average). That means they can cast their level one spell (the one that does 10 damage with Max + Emp) about four times before they are out of mana. That is equal to one swing with cleave on your melee class.

Broken metamagics - they could use a little love so that when the caster classes are rebalanced later everything is easier to keep in line.

[Calebro]

Just change it to a percentage of the original spell's cost.... like it used to be.

[ProdigalGuru]

I JUST cut and pasted this from your post, dude, no need to get all bent out of shape.

Maximize
Your spells do 100% more damage, at the cost of 3 additional mana per caster level (maximum cost to maximize a spell at caster level 9 would be 27 mana, less enhancement reductions - this is only two points higher than the current base of fifteen points to maximize).

Pay particular attention to -------------------------------------------------------------------^this^

[ProdigalGuru]

I will accept your apology now..... both for calling me a liar and insulting me when i was trying to help YOU not look stupid.

As for your assumptions of my stand on asking for any arcane efficiency buff, you would be dead wrong there as well.

My mains are Chastina (20 Sorc) and Timera (TR 20 Monk) on Ghallanda.

I would love to see even more efficiency, but it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to see the Arcane hate threads that have been on the boards lately.


Let me guess, you are/were a leg infantry, right?

I was 1/504th at Ft. Bragg, so I respect your service, but it doesn't give you the right to **** all over someone when you think you have been slighted.

Attention to detail ring any bells?

[Calebro]

I JUST cut and pasted this from your post, dude, no need to get all bent out of shape.

Maximize
Your spells do 100% more damage, at the cost of 3 additional mana per caster level (maximum cost to maximize a spell at caster level 9 would be 27 mana, less enhancement reductions - this is only two points higher than the current base of fifteen points to maximize).

Pay particular attention to -------------------------------------------------------------------^this^

I noticed that as well.
I also noticed that he capped caster level at 9th....?

Regardless, they had the solution previously with the old system.
They changed the old system.
Now they need to change it back.

[Habreno]

No need to flame the guy over it, I understand he probably wanted to say 25 and said 15, then said he never said 15. You're telling me you've NEVER hit 1 instead of 2 when typing at least ONCE? Keep in mind he already admitted he made one typo, swapping a 2 where a 3 should have been.

Anyway...

Can use some balance.

[ProdigalGuru]

My intent was neither to flame or troll, just to point out an error.

Sure, he made a typo or two, no biggie, but then he accused me of trolling, lying, and failing my reading comprehension. THEN he went on to make grand assumptions about my views, when I never stated them, along with more insult.

This deserved some follow up at the very least.