Stunning blow after U9 . . .

[Shade]

By that thinking with the assumption you are running with good casters who get the low fort mages/rangers then we are left with resilient melee mobs...

I dunno, you expectation of casters may be a bit high..

Did lots of epics lately and never really saw them insta killing the way lacer/teth/ayspam can do. Those last few points of DCs those guys have kinda put them in a league of their own far as that goes.

Most casters can kill some stuff sure, but for the most part they still see a ton of saves, so theres plenty left for me to kill.

EVen playing with other completionist casters, none really even came close to my killcount. Especially in VoN5epic, had a completionist sorc speced for necormancy, he did what he could, but the saves there are pretty high so think thin he came in a distant 2nd in killcounts behind me.

Just a huge gap in the abilities of maxxed out multi TR'd veterans, and "decent" endgame casters atm.

[Monkey_Archer]

Unnoticeable but useful ability > "Cool" looking nerfed ability

Given how comparably weak melees are now compared to caster types its very unfortunate that stun/trip got nerfed. Aesthetics over function sucks IMO.

Not only does using a stunning weapon lower dps significantly but now we have to slow our attack chain to use it

Tactics fighting in general needs a major overhaul.

[Nick_RC]

I dunno, you expectation of casters may be a bit high..

Did lots of epics lately and never really saw them insta killing the way lacer/teth/ayspam can do. Those last few points of DCs those guys have kinda put them in a league of their own far as that goes.

Most casters can kill some stuff sure, but for the most part they still see a ton of saves, so theres plenty left for me to kill.

Yeah teth lacer and ayspam do definately set the bar very high. I think you are probably right about my expectations. The epic quests that ive pugged have been more enjoyeable purely from my performance/contribution standpoint than running with my mates. Oh well 2 more tods and il be in tr cycles anyway.

N

[grodon9999]

Never worth dropping.

Even with no stunning weapon and a bad DC, it still lands pretty often in Vale quests, which makes it very useful because those quests are run almost all the time.

Anything stunned is dead. It's not going to survive those 6 seconds of +50% damage, whether coming from the stunner or the group, especially now with most epic mobs' HP cut in half. Plus it can't fight back, which means it can't hurt you and saves mana for healing.

It's even worthwhile to carry Trip on your hotbar, because it guarantees to disable most monsters for ~6 seconds, even if they make the balance check. They can't fight back and their AC is lowered in the Prone state, which allows the group to instantly focus fire and take them out.

There's something in Vale quests tough enough to be worried about stunning it?

[grodon9999]

I dunno, you expectation of casters may be a bit high..

Did lots of epics lately and never really saw them insta killing the way lacer/teth/ayspam can do. Those last few points of DCs those guys have kinda put them in a league of their own far as that goes.

Most casters can kill some stuff sure, but for the most part they still see a ton of saves, so theres plenty left for me to kill.

EVen playing with other completionist casters, none really even came close to my killcount. Especially in VoN5epic, had a completionist sorc speced for necormancy, he did what he could, but the saves there are pretty high so think thin he came in a distant 2nd in killcounts behind me.

Just a huge gap in the abilities of maxxed out multi TR'd veterans, and "decent" endgame casters atm.

The wizards I role with have between a 42 and 46 necro DCs. Get two of them in a party and the melee are literally there for conversation and killing the bosses. 42 Necro DC are 32-point lives.

My friend/guildie literally is you, maxxed everything THF Horc Barb with the ESoS and literally EVERYTHING that adds DPS. Last EDA we did he got 45 kills, my ranger 33, and the two casters about 60 Each. Once they get their spell pen high enough and time their mass energy drainage (circle of death) they just put out more killing than melees can.

Saturday we brought our friends Sorc with us in OoB who had no DCs at all so he just kept us displaced and we just beat stuff down. It was a fun change of pace

But yeah, I'm leaning towards dropping the feat with less than a 45 DC not holding a weighted weapon.

[voodoogroves]

The wizards I role with have between a 42 and 46 necro DCs. Get two of them in a party and the melee are literally there for conversation and killing the bosses. 42 Necro DC are 32-point lives.

There's merit in this ... the hidden value is ... IT IS ALL GEAR.

That's the real issue ... a "normal" caster with moderate gear is probably not outstripping the melees - certainly not by as much. Remember when folks were expecting a 38/39 DC ... and folks were asking because not everyone can hit that? As much as Dingal says his Wiz is gimp, running the CC raid-train has probably helped score some gear, tomes, ship buffs, etc. He can say he's gimped, but I daresay he's better geared than many capped wizards. ;-)

... (and so are probably many of the other forumites who know the best tricks, gear to get, etc. compared to the general playing population) ...

The big change exposed from U9 was to magnify the gap at that level. For the masses, it's largely the same. The fact is, Wizards specifically directly benefit from the increase of a single attribute. The more things that go into the game (Ship Buffs, Yugo Potions, Epic Gear, whatever) that increase INT and increase DCs the more powerful wizards become.

It's like the opposite of AC.



The simple ratcheting mechanisms Turbine has used are not the answer. Remove the blanket immunities but by god, no one would object if enemy casters and the like were smart enough to toss out a Death Ward or two. We do it, let the monsters do it to.

Unfortunately, most of the changes I'd love to see are likely time consuming ... like increasing some monsters saves vs. magic (but not normal saves), adding SR on some, adding steps in the AI to have some monsters cast key buffs (FoM, DW, etc.) That kind of variability is what is going to make the game appealing to a wide variety of characters.

[Astraghal]

I get 50 DC with a stunning weapon and no short term situational clickies like Titan's Grip or Madstone Rage(using Epic Boots of Corrosion) and I still fail against the higher Fortitude save mobs in Epics, more than I used to pre-U9 but not quite to the point where I'd consider dropping it, after all something is still better than nothing. But it is overall a very weak feat now, which needs to either put mobs into auto-crit again, or have a longer duration, a higher base DC, or a shorter cooldown.

[Krag]

There's merit in this ... the hidden value is ... IT IS ALL GEAR.

Fine, it's gear. But why can't similarly geared barbarian (eClaw set, 3-pieces eAbishai set, eChaosblade, FB ToD set) perform just as well?

[Wraith_Sarevok]

But it is overall a very weak feat now, which needs to either put mobs into auto-crit again, or have a longer duration, a higher base DC, or a shorter cooldown.

It isn't weak, as in it's primary purpose is to disable casters.

If you could take a feat with no prerequisites and reasonably low cooldown that could just stun every trash mob in the game and render them susceptible to +50% damage, you might as well call it an IWIN button.

I think we can ALL agree that casters are the most dangerous enemy on the field, and this feat gives us an option to disable and quickly kill them outside of Flesh To Stone.

It's only balanced gameplay that it doesn't always work against everything. It's the caster's domain to manage CC on melee mobs.

I agree that they could fix the trashy animation and maybe improve the damage/duration again.

[grodon9999]

Fine, it's gear. But why can't similarly geared barbarian (eClaw set, 3-pieces eAbishai set, eChaosblade, FB ToD set) perform just as well?

He could if the mobs had fewer HP.

[Astraghal]

It isn't weak, as in it's primary purpose is to disable casters.

If you could take a feat with no prerequisites and reasonably low cooldown that could just stun every trash mob in the game and render them susceptible to +50% damage, you might as well call it an IWIN button.

I think we can ALL agree that casters are the most dangerous enemy on the field, and this feat gives us an option to disable and quickly kill them outside of Flesh To Stone.

It's only balanced gameplay that it doesn't always work against everything. It's the caster's domain to manage CC on melee mobs.

I agree that they could fix the trashy animation and maybe improve the damage/duration again.

It only lasts 6 seconds out of every 15 on a single target, not counting weapon swapping time, if you have all the enhancements and gear stacked up to have it land reliably. Before update 9 I could stun an Epic caster and just about kill them before it wore off, now it's wearing off when they still have ~20% HP left and my toon isn't low DPS.

Other classes have far more effective means of dealing with their foes, SB could have zero cooldown and a 30 second duration and melee's who build for it would still fall behind what other classes could do in the game. Are those classes all IWIN easy buttons too?

Anyway I'm tired of getting into arguments with people over what I consider basic facts and common sense on the forums, I have no idea what standard other people play to or what their daily DDO experience consists of.

I can only list my own experiences on the toon I play, with the gear and build I use against the type of mobs I regularly fight.

[SiliconShadow]

Still works ok for me.

Really sucks they nerfed it without cause tho. (No double proc on glance blow or offhand)

Tho I heard freakin monks didn't get there nerfed.. So stupid and inconsistant. They still get an offhand chance aparently... at least for stunning fist, not sure about blow.

But yea for me:
About 44-48 DC without stun wep (54-58 with): Lands all the time on epic vs caster types.
Around 75% vs ranger types.
Sometimes vs melee types.
Pull out epic ratkiller: Lands all the time vs rangers and most melee types, only exceptions are some very tough devils and giants.

So yea definetely worth keeping. A few higher saves on epic makes it land less sure, but target casters and youll still land pretty well everytime.. CAsters have poor fort saves. Most ranger types too.

With the higher saves tho, those fighter past lives are definetely worth having. I've only got one on my main half orc barb, but considering getting more.

Works fine for my dwarf too, has a similar DC to my half orc thanks to his tactic enhancements.

Just wish theyd do away with with the lame anim, and bring back offhands/glancing blows.

I didn't notice any off hand procs with my kensai unarmed fighter, however double strike procs it quite merrily.

As for the damage reply from above: The helpless damage applies more if you are a class like a monk, where all your damage is increased by 50%, since I have two tod rings going, my extra bonus off my armour, my event gloves and my handwraps ontop of that I actually think I have gained a little damage or at worst case not lost any at all on helpless targets because the whole lot gets increased.

But for my other chars.. the new helpless dramatically nerfs thier 3x crit multiplier damage, hell I had a heavy pick wielder I am working out what to do with now. It's all changed, need to work out what to do and I don't want to decide now because I KNOW as soon as I change now the balance update will nerf me another way.

[voodoogroves]

Fine, it's gear. But why can't similarly geared barbarian (eClaw set, 3-pieces eAbishai set, eChaosblade, FB ToD set) perform just as well?

Maybe the caster gear is too strong comparatively?

Or, this is my point, end-game mobs/content need more variability. There need to be some mobs/areas/quests that casters are strong against, some where melee is, some with 100% fort, some where AC matters, etc. etc. Otherwise, we're sliding a scale of blanket immunities or trying to find a magic number for a save / DC. The truth is, those DC scales aren't a linear progression - once you fall below a clip-level the metagame itself changes and the players stop using the ability and function.

Those changes swing the entire system. Those swings will emphasize singular concepts - we as players should be asking for variability in more content.

[Chai]

It isn't weak, as in it's primary purpose is to disable casters.

If you could take a feat with no prerequisites and reasonably low cooldown that could just stun every trash mob in the game and render them susceptible to +50% damage, you might as well call it an IWIN button.

This is basically what epics were pre U9 - only it was autocrit.

I think we can ALL agree that casters are the most dangerous enemy on the field, and this feat gives us an option to disable and quickly kill them outside of Flesh To Stone.

It's only balanced gameplay that it doesn't always work against everything. It's the caster's domain to manage CC on melee mobs.

I agree on the "attack weak saves" bit.

I agree that they could fix the trashy animation and maybe improve the damage/duration again.

The animation needs to be un-nerfed. It can stay but TWF should get their 2 shots at a stun like they did before.

[Wraith_Sarevok]

It only lasts 6 seconds out of every 15 on a single target, not counting weapon swapping time, if you have all the enhancements and gear stacked up to have it land reliably. Before update 9 I could stun an Epic caster and just about kill them before it wore off, now it's wearing off when they still have ~20% HP left and my toon isn't low DPS.

Other classes have far more effective means of dealing with their foes, SB could have zero cooldown and a 30 second duration and melee's who build for it would still fall behind what other classes could do in the game. Are those classes all IWIN easy buttons too?

Anyway I'm tired of getting into arguments with people over what I consider basic facts and common sense on the forums, I have no idea what standard other people play to or what their daily DDO experience consists of.

I can only list my own experiences on the toon I play, with the gear and build I use against the type of mobs I regularly fight.

That's a good one.

I don't get where the "argument" part comes from. This is a discussion. The only argument is the one you're having in your own head. I'm just here to show people basic facts and common sense: How a feat which is clearly EXTREMELY useful in all difficulty levels of the game can't be considered weak in any context. I present evidence and support my point.

The game isn't designed so you can solo an EPIC caster by yourself. It's an MMO. And MMO's are obviously designed to facilitate teamwork.

How does not being able to solo an epic mob contribute to any of this? It's an accomplishment to do that and display and brag about it, but that's all it is. An accomplishment. Other classes have more effective means to deal with massive numbers of foes because they are DESIGNED to deal with massive numbers of foes. It's their role. You're not expected to solo anything in epics. You have 5 other people to help you get the job done.

Just like in nature, you can either be a jack-of-all trades or a specialist. You can't have everything.

[Astraghal]

That's a good one.

I don't get where the "argument" part comes from. This is a discussion. The only argument is the one you're having in your own head. I'm just here to show people basic facts and common sense: How a feat which is clearly EXTREMELY useful in all difficulty levels of the game can't be considered weak in any context. I present evidence and support my point.

The game isn't designed so you can solo an EPIC caster by yourself. It's an MMO. And MMO's are obviously designed to facilitate teamwork.

How does not being able to solo an epic mob contribute to any of this? It's an accomplishment to do that and display and brag about it, but that's all it is. An accomplishment. Other classes have more effective means to deal with massive numbers of foes because they are DESIGNED to deal with massive numbers of foes. It's their role. You're not expected to solo anything in epics. You have 5 other people to help you get the job done.

Just like in nature, you can either be a jack-of-all trades or a specialist. You can't have everything.

I'd just like to say that don't agree with your perceptions of the reality of how the game is currently being played, but I don't want to get into a debate with you here trying to justify why.

If you look around the forums, you will find quite a few threads in which people are discussing their thoughts on the relative effectiveness of melee's and their abilities, especially post-U9.

You will find most of the arguments and reasoning required to understand my postion in those threads.

[Krag]

Maybe the caster gear is too strong comparatively?

Yes and No.
Nuking caster gear sucks a big one. DC gear on the other hand gives tremendous advantage and so are caster past lifes.

[Cam_Neely]

Ran though epic Last Stand, Into the Deep, and piked Claw last night, and a few things I noticed

1.) The tool tip for Stunning Blow no longer has the DC?
2.) Used my Epic Rat Killer for most of Last Stand and it seemed to be around 90% on the casters, which are the only dangerous things in there. I would say closer to 50-60% on the melee. (18/2 Barb/Fighter TR, decently geared, but not great). Using my Great Axe, the success rate was much lower, and not sure if it was worth using.
3.) No way would I dump Stunning blow. There is not another feat (that I have not fit in already) that adds as much group DPS, and prevents as much dmg.

[voodoogroves]

Yes and No.
Nuking caster gear sucks a big one. DC gear on the other hand gives tremendous advantage and so are caster past lifes.

DC gear is exactly part of the issue.

We don't need all epic mobs to have blanket immunities. We don't need them all to be vulnerable ... that's just a binary switch that invalidates tactics and options. What we need is variability.



For Epic Mobs:

Make some with huge SR, some with huge saves.

Some can have more widely-varied saves. Like, for instance, add an additional +2-4 to the mobs highest save and take 2-4 away from their lowest. Something.

Give SOME mobs SOME immunities, and make these vary. Even better if they are quick-cast immunities that the AI executes based on how the monsters become active, possibly giving some value to stealth or other tactics.

Drop some mobs too-hits to make AC worthwhile.

Give a subset of mobs true seeing to bypass blur/displace.

Give a subset of mobs metalline weapons to ignore metal DR.




You could almost structure this as a series of buffs and apply some set of them (possibly with a random component too) to mobs as they spawn (similar to the minion debuff). I think completely random is a bad idea, but I do think that some randomness within some thematic characteristics would be fun and good.

[maddmatt70]

I dunno, you expectation of casters may be a bit high..

Did lots of epics lately and never really saw them insta killing the way lacer/teth/ayspam can do. Those last few points of DCs those guys have kinda put them in a league of their own far as that goes.

Most casters can kill some stuff sure, but for the most part they still see a ton of saves, so theres plenty left for me to kill.

EVen playing with other completionist casters, none really even came close to my killcount. Especially in VoN5epic, had a completionist sorc speced for necormancy, he did what he could, but the saves there are pretty high so think thin he came in a distant 2nd in killcounts behind me.

Just a huge gap in the abilities of maxxed out multi TR'd veterans, and "decent" endgame casters atm.

Yes and no. For one alot of casters still have not adjusted. Was just doing some epic fens stuff last night and the sorc we were running with did alot of energy drain and then finger and got a ton of kills in addition to using his cold dps with cold savant. Really the better casters even if they have not trrd a bunch of times are figuring it out and killing faster then the melee can. Yeah, I was on my ac rogue and another buddy was on his 4th string melee, but stil do not think I would have outkilled him on my blitz character.

Second, I find that you run with odd folks anyway to be honest.