Exotic Weapons Improvments

[dkyle]

But lets be clear: You have been proven wrong, it has been shown to be poorly designed weapon from its inception into DDO to the current day model, in every way, in every feasible manner

Who has proven this? You certainly haven't. I have yet to see anyone who has.

I have shown that the damage boost from Khopesh over Scimitar is comparable to damage boosts from other feats. What more need there be?

Nothing agrees with you, not the fantasy foundation rules of the game by which DDO is built off all the way across the board to the fabric of our real world reality of the weapon itself, in design, purpose, and description. All of it says you are wrong about this weapon.

Simply changing the name would fix all of those concerns.

Call it the "Orcish Uber Sword". Whatever. That's all just fluff.

But the collection of game mechanics that we currently call Khopesh are sound, and no amount of "history", or PnP rules can change that.

But you have chosen to dismiss all that, and stick to your belief that it a well balanced weapon, even when it has been shown to be anything and everything but "a well designed, well balanced weapon" so much so, that even you conceded that the other weapons need an augment to be on par to it.

It is well balanced and well designed compared to Scimitar and Rapier, given the cost of the feat.

I wish I could say the same about BSwords.

That, right there, is the very defining factor of a weapon that is not well balanced and designed, if everything else needs to be amped up to keep up with it.

"Everything else" doesn't need to be boosted. BSword does. DAxe a little. But not because of Khopesh, or to match it.

They need to be buffed just to be able to beat Scimitar by a margin worth spending a feat for (or worth sticking to a racial weapon for).

We could entirely remove Khopesh from the game, and BSword would still be gimped, just because of Scimitar. Does that mean Scimitar is overpowered and should be nerfed? Same for Rapier?

Other Exotics are either incomparable (the crossbows), or clearly intended for a different purpose (Kama, although that could use a little equalization with Handwraps).

And as for Martials, many of them suck compared to Scimitar and Rapier. No buffing is needed due to Khopesh. Just enough to have a purpose next to those weapons.

[Requiro]

I see, not just Kensei III, but Specifically: Kensei Dwarven War Axe III mastery.

I think this was obvious...

Making an ability that targets out and nerfs the Kensei III Weapon Mastery, as well as the paladin Exalted Smite is poor planning and poor design.

Where do you see nerf for them?

For now Kensei III have with Daxe:
Roll 20: Damage X3
Roll 19: Damage X3
Roll 18: Damage X3
Roll 2-17: Normal damage

After my change:
Roll 20: Damage X4
Roll 19: Damage X4
Roll 18: Damage X3
Roll 2-17: Normal damage

This is Nerf?

In regards to what Turbine can and can;'t do to their game. lets be clear, Turbine can and may change anything they want, any time they want, in any way they want, with our with out letting us know what they did.

None of nerfs before (or I don't remember/Not playing that time) was about something that players must spend a lot of time to get (GS Khopesh) and what is not irreversible (GS deconstruction in not exist in DDO). Wall of Fire is just a spell. You don't spend a lots of time to get it. You can easily change it for other spell. TWF is only a playstyle game. Same Tempest PrE. Nothing compare with GS Crafting.

[eulogy098]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=315675 was locked for some reason and yet this wasnt... odd.


anyhow, i don't like the idea of exotics being so much more powerful then martial weapons. I feel asthough they should only average at most 3 to 5 more damage per hit, and no more. Offering more gives them greater power then even Power Attack and further diminishes the value of any martials, making the game less flavourful simply because nothing but exotics are worth using in comparison.

Overpowerd exotics (such as the current Khopesh) make all other items trivial. This makes the game less good over all.


in short- not signed. Do not make exotics dramatically more powerful then martial weapons.

[Requiro]

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=315675 was locked for some reason and yet this wasnt... odd.

Strange... Indeed...

Oh.. Maybe it’s because you guys talk over 5-6 page about what is the Khopesh's history? And other thing that was not about topic…

(BTW: dkyle and Ungood - please try avoid off topic, or this thread will - probably - closed too)

Do not make exotics dramatically more powerful then martial weapons.

That is your point of view. We have different. My ideas are very simple:

"If I must pay for something, that must be much better then free one"

BTW: Did you do some math about Scimitar/Rapier vs Longsword/Shorsword?
I think that you will be surprised

[eulogy098]

Yet you have no trouble "paying" for Power Attack and that only adds +5 damage, and has a possibly HUGE penalty. How do you justify an exotic offering more dps then Power attack , with no penalty ?

[dkyle]

Yet you have no trouble "paying" for Power Attack and that only adds +5 damage, and has a possibly HUGE penalty. How do you justify an exotic offering more dps then Power attack , with no penalty ?

1) PA is more than 5 damage to a number of builds: anything involving WF, HOrc, or Barbarian. All of those can reach +8 from PA, +11 if combined.

2) Khopesh might be about 8 points ahead on a well geared character vs. Scimitar, but only vs. 0% fortification. PA is 5 or more no matter the fortification. And with some of the most important enemies at 50% fortification, that's not a trivial concern. It would take a lot of base damage for Khopesh to outweigh PA vs. 50% fort. And being totally gimped at fighting 100% fort isn't a good thing either, even if they're a relatively small part of the end-game.

3) Having to use Khopesh is a penalty, albeit one that varies dramatically with what unique items are available, and the metagame of what enemies we face. For example, PA works with the Brigands' Cutlasses, while EWP: Khopesh doesn't, providing Scimitar users with a cheap, near-LitII-quality weapon. Sure, there are Epic Chaos Blades, but those a far harder to acquire than a LitII, let alone a Cove epic. PA works with Warhammers vs. skeles and liches, while EWP: Khopesh doesn't.

PA works with any weapon you pick up. EWP: Khopesh only provides a benefit if you're actually wielding a Khopesh.

4) PA works with far more varieties of builds. Basically, every melee should take it. EWP: Khopesh is a more specialized feat. Only non-Monk TWF can use it. A more specialized feat might logically be more potent than a more generic feat. And I'm not even convinced EWP: Khopesh is more potent than PA on any builds that take them.


Bottom line is, I've seen far more builds forgo Khopesh than forgo PA. Haven't you? There's a reason for that.

[eulogy098]

Bottom line is, I've seen far more builds forgo Khopesh than forgo PA. Haven't you? There's a reason for that.

the higher your damage bonus, the less optimal that decision would be. as i've said before, the biggest problem with khopeshs is that they are becoming an even bigger problem. and the suggestions in the op of this thread would simply extend the same scaling problem upon all other exotics.

The more your damage bonus, the greater the gap between khopesh and everything else becomes. Simply put, it scales where as it shouldnt. Power attack doesnt scale, nor does any other damage increasing feat.

By making all of the other exotics as overpowered as Khopesh, all you do is make all martials completely trivial and anyone using them gimpped by comparison.


I still hold by the concept of making all exotics +3 or +4 base damage over their similar martial equal and keeping the exact same crit profile. thus khopesh being something like 3d3 2x 18-20 or even just 1d6+4 2x 18-20. +4 damage is worth a feat, and wont continue to scale to absurdly overpowered at higher damage bonuses.


Do you really feel that +4 damage isnt worth a feat? (i do agree that the +4 should only work if you have the prof.) Do you really feel that everyone that has current imbakhopesh would not want to keep the feat if it were changed to this? it would still be the undeniably best weapon in game and +4 damage for the cost of a feat is a hell of a deal.

[eulogy098]

and seriously, why the heck was http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=315675 locked?

there were only a couple of people going off topic, otherwise there was some really good, levelheaded, debate in that thread.

[dkyle]

The more your damage bonus, the greater the gap between khopesh and everything else becomes. Simply put, it scales where as it shouldnt. Power attack doesnt scale, nor does any other damage increasing feat.

Every other damage boosting feat (other than some class-specific and past-life feats) scales. TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Imp. Crit, THF, ITHF, GTHF, all scale with base damage.

And if we look at PrEs, most damage-boosting PrEs have a multiplicative component. +3 Crit multiplier for FB, +1 Crit Range for Kensai III, Offhand-proc and doublestrike for Tempest, the doublestrike song for Warchanter. And even Acrobat has swing speed boosts for Quarterstaff, and Shintao includes a percent increase damage boosting debuff that also reduces fortification.

Only Assassin, Ninja Spy, and KotC are additive, and even then, their base classes get multiplicative bonuses: Opportunist for Rogues, Wind/EarthIII+ stance and unarmed speed for Monks, Zeal and Exalted Smite/Divine Sacrifice for Palis.

PA is the exception, not the rule. The game is rife with multiplicative bonuses.

By making all of the other exotics as overpowered as Khopesh, all you do is make all martials completely trivial and anyone using them gimpped by comparison.

It depends on whether you're view damage differences in absolute, or relative terms. In relative terms, Khopesh will always be about 8% better than Scimitar vs. 0 fort. In absolute terms, yes, the difference scales up.

I still hold by the concept of making all exotics +3 or +4 base damage over their similar martial equal and keeping the exact same crit profile. thus khopesh being something like 3d3 2x 18-20 or even just 1d6+4 2x 18-20. +4 damage is worth a feat, and wont continue to scale to absurdly overpowered at higher damage bonuses.

+4 might be worth a feat. But it's a boring feat. It's always the same, in all situations. If all we ever do is add some amount of base damage to Martials to make Exotics, there won't be anything other then the uncommon damage-type DR to make various weapons better than others in various situations.

Khopesh is, currently, about +4 where DPS matters the most, but scales up or down with different fortifications. Isn't that already reasonable?

[Emili]

the higher your damage bonus, the less optimal that decision would be. as i've said before, the biggest problem with khopeshs is that they are becoming an even bigger problem. and the suggestions in the op of this thread would simply extend the same scaling problem upon all other exotics.

Actually the scope of higher levels is riddled with more mob of fort and increasing. You stop runnning norm settings on top raids and more elite settings because your bonus' due gear allow you to step into such... you run more epics where fort is ever more common place. People with the scaling you speak about run the hardest settings they possibly may because they have the gear to do so and want to generate more of the same calibre of gear - It just works out that way ... elite/epic is prefered and norm is a let down for them ...

[KillEveryone]

Read again. And show me nerf in my new proposal.

After that If you will be still /not signed at least change the reason.

There really is nothing wrong with kopesh.

The problem is with the whole weapon line up as a whole.

How many rogues do you actually see using daggers, the "traditional" weapon of that type of class. Easy to conceal and slip into the unprotected parts of a body for a devastating kill. Instead you see them with rapiers and shortswords if they can't hit with an oversized weapon. Rogues get for a slashing weapon...sickle...since it is a simple weapon. How many rogues do you see using one of these things when having to deal with zombies or other piercing DR types? How many players do you really see with a sickle beyond casters needing certain effects to enhance their weapons.

Light maces Vs. Heavy maces. Simple weapons both so unless you don't have a heavy mace or are finesse, why even bother with a light mace.

Battle and Hand Axe Vs any other martial slasher. Dwarfs will take dwarven axe and if they take a fighter level, they will automatically get that weapon. Who else is really going to bother with these weapons.

A few of the problems but the bottom line is that there are very few weapons worth using. I've been a advocate of exotic buff but after thinking about the system as a whole, buffing exotics isn't going to work unless the whole system gets fixed.

There is nothing wrong with kopesh. The whole system is dysfunctional.

[KillEveryone]

Fail post.

Your post is inaccurate and full of irrelevant personal assumptions. Did you even read his proposal?

In his proposal, the khopesh has identical stats as long as the proficiency feat has been taken, therefore no nerf.

My post is good. It is my opinion.

Your post is a fail post for disregarding that reasoning.

You have proven nothing. Try again.

[Blank_Zero]

You missed a few, thought I would fix that for you

He didn't miss them.

Use Master's Touch. PRESTO! Proficiency!

[Requiro]

<snip>

Please, Do some math about Scimitar/Rapier vs Longsword. Because there is almost the same advantage like Khopesh vs Scimitars. If you want to be consequent, you should try convince us that Scimitars are also overpowered...

Meh... I will do math for you...

Scimitar/Rapier (S/R) vs Longsword (Long)
Weapons: LitII + 6 seeker.

+dmg	S/R	Long	Diff	+ %
0	37,9	36,3	1,6	4
10	50,4	47,8	2,6	5
20	62,9	59,3	3,6	6
30	75,4	70,8	4,6	6
40	87,9	82,3	5,6	7
50	100,4	93,8	6,6	7
60	112,9	105,3	7,6	7
70	125,4	116,8	8,6	7
80	137,9	128,3	9,6	7
90	150,4	129,8	10,6	8
100	162,9	151,3	11,6	8

There really is nothing wrong with kopesh.

<snip>

Men... I really advice you read my proposal first

(Or you are guy that use Khopesh without feat... hmm... )

The problem is with the whole weapon line up as a whole.
<snip>

Do you have any proposal how "fix" it?

<snip>And being totally gimped at fighting 100% fort isn't a good thing either, even if they're a relatively small part of the end-game.

<snip>

What about undeads?

[Dendrix]

Hello.

In my opinion Exotic Weapons should be just like ordinary weapons until we take proper Weapons Proficiency. After that you should get special (exotic) bonus when using them.

First changes to some weapons itself, for more balance in game:

Khopesh: Base damage 1d8 19-20/x2 (GS: 1d10 19-20/x2).

No. because 100% of the time your change obsoletes longswords.
If you have no exotic proficiecy it has the same stats as a longsword. if you have the proficency then it is better.

So you should always carry/use khopesh over a longsword from 1st level. And that's bad.

[Requiro]

No. because 100% of the time your change obsoletes longswords.
If you have no exotic proficiecy it has the same stats as a longsword. if you have the proficency then it is better.

So you should always carry/use khopesh over a longsword from 1st level. And that's bad.

Now you can do the same? (even without feat) That is bad?

I don't write it but this is obvious for every proficiency feat: without proper proficiency you still suffer -4 to hit.

To paraphrase you:

Now:

If you have no exotic proficiency it has better stats as a longsword. If you have the proficiency then it is even better.

So you should always carry/use Khopesh over a longsword from 1st level. And that's your choice

After my changes:

If you have no exotic proficiency it has equal stats as a longsword. If you have the proficiency then it is better.

So you should always carry/use Khopesh over a longsword from 1st level. And that's your hard choice, because you have one feat less on level 1

[dkyle]

No. because 100% of the time your change obsoletes longswords.
If you have no exotic proficiecy it has the same stats as a longsword. if you have the proficency then it is better.

So you should always carry/use khopesh over a longsword from 1st level. And that's bad.

I am assuming that the -4 penalty for non-proficiency would still exist. So the Longsword would still be better.

The change to Khopesh is about making non-proficiency a non-option for gaining its' feat-like benefits, without spending the feat.

What about undeads?

Undead are a "relatively small" part of the endgame.

We've got Epic Wiz-king, the Abbott (where DPS is an afterthought), and SOS, and that's about it. A few giant skeles in the sub and a few other minor enemies.

A few 100% constructs, like the EVoN3 Marut, or Crateos.

Compare to all the Devils we have (Shroud, VoD, ToD, EChrono, EDA), and 0% fort enemies (Lailat, Velah, etc.)

[Requiro]

<snip>

Undead are a "relatively small" part of the endgame.

<snip>

Yes I know I'm just saying that there is a lot more 100% fortification mobs in game overall, not only in end game.

[dkyle]

Yes I know I'm just saying that there is a lot more 100% fortification mobs in game overall, not only in end game.

I specified end-game originally.

I don't really care that much about weapon balance outside of end-game.

[KillEveryone]

Yes I know I'm just saying that there is a lot more 100% fortification mobs in game overall, not only in end game.

Power of a weapon is seen much more at endgame.

Since there are not many 100% fort critters at end game, why bother still. You are going to balance for all the content but people will still skip anything that reduces fort because it isn't necessary.

Basically, why take a weapon that has a benefit that may see 5% of the players playing life? After cap, what do you really do then? You can TR and re-run the grind or you can grind out gear from quests which have critters that doesn't have enough fort to bother. Just power through with your DPS weapon and you are golden.

Going to run lowbee content with your capped character? No one is going to worry about having to deal with fort.

BS may be a good leveling weapon but, at cap people will still take the weapon that puts out the most DPS that they can fit into the build.

There are only a few good weapons in the game. As I stated the whole line up is borked. I don't have a way to fix it...yet....but to actually make the whole line up of exotics worth taking, you need to fix the whole line up.

If you buff exotics too much, why use a martial weapon then? Scimitar would get bonuses if you are elf but beyond that, unless you can't fit it in your build then why bother with martial?

There is no problem with kopesh. People percieve a problem because it is a good weapon but it isn't the weapon. It is the weapon line as a whole. There are only a few good weapon types worth using and part of the problem is the game mechanics. Fix the whole system and you will be able to balance exotics.