The Talented Mechanic?

[Lothaire]

So, uh. I've been contemplating a build for a little, though I'm not 100% proficient in the use of the character simulator to know how to post up one of those spiffy little boxes that has the level 20 information in it.
I'm also pretty new to DDO (sort of, since I quit and came back only recently) but since I made a new account to celebrate starting fresh, I don't really have any fancy tomes or anything else.

That all aside, I was wondering if it'd be possible to put together a 14bard/6rogue, to pick up Virtuoso II and Mechanic I.
Points pretty much split between int/chr and dumped everywhere else, to make a character that can pick locks, stop traps, sing songs, toss heals, and....yeah. (possibly even get those pesky int/chr runes, all at once)

Maybe that's too much? Maybe I'd need a helluva lot of tomes to pull it off? Or really fancy gear or..something?
Or maybe I wouldn't have the skill/stat points to make it feasible or even somewhat competitive, though I don't seem to see many virtuosos around, and I was hoping to find a way to mix it into something.

I do have access to Drow, which sort of makes up for me not having a 32pt build, but would that be enough?
Thoughts? Suggestions? Lothaire, quit dreaming and go back to breaking boxes with your barbarian?
Any advice is welcome, haha.

[Jahmin]

Bard18/Rog2 should be more than sufficient for what you want.

[Lothaire]

Would the +disable/open lock from the mechanic prestige not be worth it? Also, rogues get more skill points per level, so if I'm spreading points between perform(I think?)/disable/lock/search/spot/whatever, wouldn't those extra 2pts per level be useful?

[Jahmin]

Not really necessary. 16INT would give you 9skill points/Bard lvl, which is enough to CC Search & Disable, plus UMD, Perform, Conc and either another CC (Open Lock?) or some class skills (Diplo/Bluff, maybe Balance, etc).

Even base 10INT is 6points/Bard lvl – just enough for the required Search, Disable, UMD, Perform.

Save your second Rogue level for after a +2 INT tome, and then you can back fill some of the secondary skills fairly easily.

[Lothaire]

Hm, alright. I'm hoping +2 int tomes aren't terribly hard to find - is there some huge reason why I don't see many virtuosos, though? Warchanters? Sure. Spellsingers? Sure.

...But virtuosos? Nooope.

[Jahmin]

Not super rare – they are even in the DDO: Store – but one is certainly not required.

Spell Singers are arguably the strongest of the Bard PrEs atm, but War Chanter is a close second. Virtuoso is more specialized, but shines in a few places.

[Lothaire]

Hm. In that case, what would be the advantage of going 18/2 instead of 14/6? I'm missing the capstone regardless, and there isn't a Virtuoso III, last time I checked.
Same hit die, etc etc.

Would it just be for all the spell points I wouldn't be getting for all those levels in rogue? ...I suppose that's a pretty big hit, now that I think about it.

[unbongwah]

If you're going Mechanic I for the boost to trap skills, don't bother - with the right gear & buffs you won't need `em. If you want to use repeaters, bear in mind it takes a lot of ranged feats & good DEX (partly for to-hit, partly for feat pre-reqs) to do decent DPS with them; and rogue / bards tend to come up short in the feat department.

[Lothaire]

Ah, alright. That's a decent enough reason, haha.

Onto something that Jahmin mentioned - that is, that spellsinger is the strongest bard PrE at the moment - would that relegate a virtuoso bard to '*** are you doing, reset to spellsinger lol' status, or merely "okay, this guy's just doing something a little different" territory?
Thing is, I sort of want to play an off-healer/support-y class without getting into cleric territory (no FvS since I'm f2p) - but am I looking at all in the right direction?

I figured virtuoso had a spiffy heal, and bards could toss heals around relatively well, and if I multi'd into rogue, I could handle traps, since there seems to be an odd lack of rogues whenever there's clerics around, as well as a lack of clerics whenever there's lots of rogues.

[Jahmin]

Virtuoso is merely a little different – nothing too out there as it was.

Just because there are no tier3 Bard PrEs yet, does not mean it will always be that way – although at the rate they are going it will probably be awhile yet…

Spellsinger’s +4 to UMD & +200sp are definitely nice and may help you more in your desire to heal, but they are not necessary to do so. In any event providing you meet the Spellsinger’s feat pre-req, then it is certainly easy to enhancement swap back and forth between the two.

[unbongwah]

I posted a melee-&-buffs-&-heals-&-traps rogue / bard Spellsinger here yesterday. There's also some discussion in that thread about the trade-offs involved with bards. As Jahmin said, it's a question of priorities and what your focus is on.

[Satinavian]

I am playing a spellsinger with 2 rogue-levels and it is enough for traps. Also used Drow, as i can benefit from Int(skillpoints, trapskills), Cha(casterstat) and Dex(twf with Rapier and shorrtsword, both benefit from enhancementlines and need no further investment for proficiency). The racial bonus on search and spot makes trapfinding even easier.

Human or Helf(Palli-dill) might also work, if you have 32 points.

6 level of rogue might be a good idea for the ranged aspect of your build. Not sure, if it would work, but other than that you do not gain much from 4 more levels of rogue.

As for PrEs ... As splashed build i have less spellpoints than a pure bard. Spellsinger gives 200 more. And occasional more on every song. And the Sp-generating song. The last one is widely appreciated among other casters. Oh, and an UMD-bonus which you can use very well as you do have less skillpoints availible than other bards.

Virtuoso gives basically only more CC that does work even on a splashed build. the rest is quite useless. If you love CC but want the traps, you might go Virtuoso. If you want buff/heal and fight traditionally, go spellsinger or warchanter.

Onto something that Jahmin mentioned - that is, that spellsinger is the strongest bard PrE at the moment - would that relegate a virtuoso bard to '*** are you doing, reset to spellsinger lol' status, or merely "okay, this guy's just doing something a little different" territory?

Your group will only see, which PrE you have, if you use the special songs. If you are a warchanter, the melees might be happy for better IC and (maybe) Recklessness. If you are spellsinger, the casters are happy for SP-discount, higher DCs and most important, more SP. Virtuosos can only shine, if they use their CC-songs to maximum effect. But i have never seen anyone complain about a bardbuild in a group. Can't imagine, a virt would get reroll-comment, even if some players might like other bards more.

Thing is, I sort of want to play an off-healer/support-y class without getting into cleric territory (no FvS since I'm f2p) - but am I looking at all in the right direction?

right direction.

[Arcath]

Would the +disable/open lock from the mechanic prestige not be worth it?

I've got a 18Wiz/2Rog with 71 disarm. Even without good gear a 2 rogue splash can get disarm of 55+

+15 item, +7 from lockpicks, +3 from +6 stat item and you are already adding +25 to your skills and plus whatever stat bonus you get. two rogue levels will get you 5 boosts of 20 seconds for another +2 if you need it.

Also keep in mind that open locks doesn't really have to be maxed out, disarm does. Disarm if you fail you can blow the box and the trap is waiting to kill everyone. If your locks skill is lacking a bit and you roll low, you just have to try again, and again, and again until you roll high.

Max out disarm and search. keep locks and spot high as you can afford to.

You only need two rogue to get evasion, rogue skills, backstab damage. 18 bard will get you more sp, higher dc's, longer duration on your spells, and a more favorable build in the end.

[Dulcimerist]

Virtuoso is less-common, but fun. You'd focus on songs to do crowd control, and would also have the sweet Virtuoso song that heals all party members over time. SP could be used for secondary crowd control (charm monster, disco ball) and party buffs (rage, haste). I personally would not focus on healing spells (bard healing enhancements), as I would want to spend my enhancement points on more important things to the build. Your initial idea is a really sweet one, but go 18/2 bard/rogue instead.


If you're interested in a melee bard/rogue and want to be unique, a 12/6 Warchanter II Thief-Acrobat I using quarterstaves might be entertaining. I'm not sure how effective that could be, though.

[theboyftw]

my main is 12 bard (virt) 6 rogue (mech) 2 Fighter, and I'm also levelling the same build with 2 barbarian for sprint/fast movement, rage and con. Fun build. probably won't be worth much in epic content but she handles normal and hard pretty well.

[Thrudh]

Drow Bard/rogue is a decent combo... Start with a 16 INT, and you can get all the skills...

Get at least two levels of rogue for evasion...
Get at least 14 levels of bard for your songs...

Any combo in that range will work

14/6 - Most rogue skills, mechanic PrE (not really needed for trapsmithing, repeaters might be fun)
15/5 - Gets you the +4 AC Bard song... still plenty of AC builds who want a bard to have it.
16/4 - Gets you 6th level spells, lets you be a solid healer, able to cycle between cure light, mass and cure mod, mass
18/2 - When the Tier III PrEs come out, you'll be able to get them.

I prefer 16/4 or 15/5 myself... I have a 15/5 right now... I will be TRing to bard/rogue again... still haven't decided between 16/4,15/5, or maybe 14/6

[Lothaire]

I posted a melee-&-buffs-&-heals-&-traps rogue / bard Spellsinger here yesterday. There's also some discussion in that thread about the trade-offs involved with bards. As Jahmin said, it's a question of priorities and what your focus is on.

Pah. Read through that thread, and it seems sort of like I'll have to settle for being slightly under-par in regards to what I'd like to be doing, though I suppose splashing into various areas sort of compensates for that.
As things stand, though, it seems like a spellsinger can do just about anything a virtuoso can do, only better - if I wanted to CC, spellsinger outcompetes virtuosos; and with a larger sp pool, they can keep going for longer, too.
(although I don't know just how good that virtuoso healing song is, and with extra bardic musics, maybe it'd break even?)
Regnerating songs seems pretty useful, as does 20% longer songs - will/do those compensate for a smaller sp pool and...

Well, actually. In that case, it seems almost tempting to just drop the rogue levels, say farewell to disabling traps, and focus on songs that last forever and more or less keep that healing chant up semi-indefinitely.

[Jahmin]

The traps and evasion are very nice on a bard. I do recommend Bard16 as a minimum for lvl6 spells (mCMW & OID)

[Satinavian]

Yes.

The most important reason for not taking rogue-levels is offensive casting (DCs, Spellpen,more build points from not needed int). Offensive songs don't suffer from splashes. And Evasion is nice.

Regenerating songs are also available with the rapier from Sentinals(not a good weapon, but easy to get) or the cloak from Lordsmarch (which finally does work! and drops quite often and is really useful only for bards)

Don't take Virtuoso for the healing song. It is only a minor benefit. Go Virtuoso for the CC-songs, these are the main selling point of the PrE. Or take it for the concept and for doing something different. A slightly inferior PrE won't make or break a bard build. Especially because you can easily swap them out with just one feat.

Virtuoso looses not much from not being pure. Less than cc-spellsinger. The same as warchanter and when have you seen a pure wc the last time ?