I want my 4th level slot flexibility back please...

[Peo]

See, that's just it, I don't understand why someone would take 4 levels of fighter if they really wanted to cast spells in the first place. Just play full wiz in DDO if that's what you really wanna do, instead of trying to be a caster with level 7 and below spells and a few levels of something that gives them melee ability, you'll still be behind imo as a multi of both. I understood how practised spellcaster works, I just think it's a bit lame.

Fighter is a poor example into it's self. PS covers CL loss as a Wizard/Warblade/JPM which nets things like concentration checks instead of saves & concentration checks (with multipliers) to damage (without using the limited spell slots). PC also can cover Bard dipping to pick up Dragonfire which can be augmented to the entire party & all summons gain +12d6 acid per attack by the 8th level. Name a spell that comes half as close to that.

As briefly mentioned by your self, what you want to do trumps what someone else whats you to do. Vast majority of people don't play StP Erudites and choose a lesser class, such as a pure wizard for example, it doesn't mean they are wrong. In fact, if everyone else is disagreeing with you, it's a huge sign you're the one not thinking things though.

[sirdanile]

I personally would like to see EVERY spell level this packed with good spells to take instead of fourth and sixth level lessened.

[Emili]

I personally would like to see EVERY spell level this packed with good spells to take instead of fourth and sixth level lessened.

Which stands to reason, especially come a wizard. The more good spells there are at any given level is a perk to the wizard class as they are the arcane who can swap and mix them up for versitility.

The way it is right now stone skin and some utility such as teleport, greater teleport can be had via scroll and/or wand. The spell slots a wizard utilizes should require planning and thought... likewise for all casters.

Applicable choices on every level leads to more variety, randomness and originality in game play. This is true outside of spells - feats, and enhancements should be the same way.

Fewer good choices leads to best of breed and eventually "clone" or near so among the power gamers. Being so it also leads to skepticism of variety until proven...

It is nice that one must make decisions among good spells to slot - this should happen at every spell level, feat level and enhancement ap... It provides for variety and of course every single spell, feat and enhancement should be nearly even keel with one another - providing usable, effective application. There should be NO mundane, useless, or mediocre spell, feat or enhancement. Such existing implies wasted space in game, ruleset and of course Dev time.

As it is I think DDO already treats every wizard as if they have School Specialization which adds a spell per day slot?

[Maegin]

The core D&D rules do allow you to put lower level spells in higher level spell slots. It would seem to be a reasonable approach for this game as well.

Heighten Metamagic.

[Wizzly_Bear]

First, I don't get it. 4th level has always been "tight," but what recent change is being referenced as constraining it even more?

Second, yes, we should be able to prep spells of level or below.

[Wizzly_Bear]

I personally would like to see EVERY spell level this packed with good spells to take instead of fourth and sixth level lessened.

This! To the nth power! 7th level is by far my favorite on wizard. No other level comes close.

[Gkar]

They should just go ahead and allow level X slots to hold spells of level 1-X.

The core D&D rules do allow you to put lower level spells in higher level spell slots. It would seem to be a reasonable approach for this game as well.

[AtomicMew]

First, I don't get it. 4th level has always been "tight," but what recent change is being referenced as constraining it even more?

Second, yes, we should be able to prep spells of level or below.

The reason is the firewall nerf and the buff to acid rain. Wizards only get 5 slots. For a PM, 3 of those slots are automatically taken by:

Death Aura
Negative Energy Burst
Dimension Door (yes, this is fairly essential 99% of the time)

But you also want to take:
Firewall/Ice Storm
Acid Rain
Stoneskin
Fireshield
Phantasmal Killer

None of which are easily replaced by scrolls/clickies except for maybe stoneskin (although not really). And because all slots are filled, it totally obscures other spells that are actually quite decent from ever seeing play, such as:

Solid Fog
Burning Blood
Enervation

and...? Don't know, because my 4th level slots are always too full to try anything else.

[GotSomeQuestions]

A couple of level 4 spells now have no-save debuff riders, notably Solid Fog (-5 reflex) and Crushing Despair (-6 will). I have both on my Sorcerer, because my DCs are low. I miss out on a lot of other great spells, but that's level 4 for you.

Honestly, it'd be great if more spells got a boost like that, to help make the other spell levels competitive.

[Cyr]

First, I don't get it. 4th level has always been "tight," but what recent change is being referenced as constraining it even more?

Second, yes, we should be able to prep spells of level or below.

Crushing despair, acid rain, burning blood all got big enough bumps that they are very strong spells. Acid spec pale master is the tightest for 4th level slots atm.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Negative energy burst? Your trade off for self healing.

Death aura? Radiant servant for PMs in one spell.

DD? Essential? No.

Stoneskin? Wands and scrolls. I can't even remember the last time I even bothered on an arcane.

Solid fog? Clicked.

Fire shield? Scrolls.

PK? Sucks.

Enervation? Scrolls.

More choices is not a bad thing. As has been said, I wish EVERY spell level had this problem.

The reason is the firewall nerf and the buff to acid rain. Wizards only get 5 slots. For a PM, 3 of those slots are automatically taken by:

Death Aura
Negative Energy Burst
Dimension Door (yes, this is fairly essential 99% of the time)

But you also want to take:
Firewall/Ice Storm
Acid Rain
Stoneskin
Fireshield
Phantasmal Killer

None of which are easily replaced by scrolls/clickies except for maybe stoneskin (although not really). And because all slots are filled, it totally obscures other spells that are actually quite decent from ever seeing play, such as:

Solid Fog
Burning Blood
Enervation

and...? Don't know, because my 4th level slots are always too full to try anything else.

[AtomicMew]

Negative energy burst? Your trade off for self healing.

Death aura? Radiant servant for PMs in one spell.

DD? Essential? No.

Stoneskin? Wands and scrolls. I can't even remember the last time I even bothered on an arcane.

Solid fog? Clicked.

Fire shield? Scrolls.

PK? Sucks.

Enervation? Scrolls.

More choices is not a bad thing. As has been said, I wish EVERY spell level had this problem.

Why don't you actually try some of these things before you comment?

Going in without NEB? < level 17 or even < 20, sure, but for tough raids and tough epics, get real.

DDoor not essential? You're right, not in every quest, but for many quests, it basically is.

Phantasmal Killer sucks? So a mini FoD on a shorter recharge... sucks?

Fire shield scrolls? You OBVIOUSLY haven't tried it.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Why don't you actually try some of these things before you comment?

Going in without NEB? < level 17 or even < 20, sure, but for tough raids and tough epics, get real.

DDoor not essential? You're right, not in every quest, but for many quests, it basically is.

Phantasmal Killer sucks? So a mini FoD on a shorter recharge... sucks?

Fire shield scrolls? You OBVIOUSLY haven't tried it.

Try some of these things? I've been playing casters since '07 slick.

[sweez]

Just got my TRed PM to 18, and yeah level 4 is horribly congested. One spell that's extremely useful on a PM and that hasn't even been mentioned is Bestow Curse - 10 SP for a save debuff with necro DC targeting will? Yes please. PK is a very worthwhile spell - if you have a decent int and a super easy to obtain greater spell focus illusion item you can easily get it to 40ish DC on a TR caster. Crushing Despair is another great yet underrated utility spell.

Sure, the issue would be completely different if EVERY spell level had the same problem. However, they don't - at most spell levels you're filling slots with spells you know you'll barely ever use, and then just because they're there so what the heck.

[fyrst.grok]

Negative energy burst? Your trade off for self healing.

Death aura? Radiant servant for PMs in one spell.

DD? Essential? No.

Stoneskin? Wands and scrolls. I can't even remember the last time I even bothered on an arcane.

Solid fog? Clicked.

Fire shield? Scrolls.

PK? Sucks.

Enervation? Scrolls.

More choices is not a bad thing. As has been said, I wish EVERY spell level had this problem.

Except for the Fireshield I agree.. But with regard to the shield thats just because I hate spending plat on fire resistance

Stoneskin just isn't worth the cost and slot.. Get seal of the earth or bring scrolls/wands.

[AtomicMew]

Try some of these things? I've been playing casters since '07 slick.

Then it's even worse that you're saying some of the things that you are. I mean, fire shield scrolls...? Come on.

[Wizzly_Bear]

Then it's even worse that you're saying some of the things that you are. I mean, fire shield scrolls...? Come on.

I'm confused...Do fire shield scrolls not work anymore? It's just not a spell I really bother with.

[Kabaon]

Except for the Fireshield I agree.. But with regard to the shield thats just because I hate spending plat on fire resistance

Stoneskin just isn't worth the cost and slot.. Get seal of the earth or bring scrolls/wands.

Why are spending plat of resistances, if your a caster, just cast it lol. No matierals needed and it saves you money.

As for stoneskin being not worth the cost or slot, I'd beg to differ. Go to a guild vendor, buy 1000 stonskin mats for roughly 12k (based on your haggle, mines like... 4) and use them. Overall you actually save money rather then blow it on inferior wands (which only cast up to 70 dr if I recall). Seal of the earth is a nice ring, and I'm not sure how the stoneskin cap rising changes that ring, but it also wasn't as good as the real spell the last time I saw. I bought stonskin mats 8 months ago and I haven't needed to refresh my supply... and I wasted a bunch in the dueling pits and I still have about 300 left maybe more (and I died like 200 times in the pits)

Yeah, level 4 spells are tight, but we're wizards. Just swap out as needed, 5 slots is fine imo becuase of that, otherwise our screens are going to be even more full bars that we won't use.

Edit: I also forgot to mention... Wizzly Bear, enervation does get used at lower levels. It's one of my main spell choices at lower levels. Problem is at higher levels people don't bother using both (from what I've seen) and tend to use Energy Drain when they get it (two Enervations for the price of a single cast. Enervation:1d4 negative levels Energy Drain: 2d4 negative levels)

[Wizzly_Bear]

Kab - I don't ever bother with any form of Stoneskin on a caster, especially once I acquire a Symbiont; but, I build 500+hp warforged casters with tower shields and quickened reconstruct so it's really just not necessary/wasteful.

[Kabaon]

OK, while I see why people consider Stonskin a waste of money/spell slots, not everyone uses sheilds and is a wf with 500+ hp (my wizzy needs to tr to human and get a few things covered to get 500+, but I've already got it figured out).

My gear setup is actually an Epic Ornamental Dagger, a Green Blade, Concord Oppo Goggles, a Mino Legens (toughness +20 and Heazvy Fort is actually more useful for me as a PM than you think... 200% fort woot!), Torc, Eardweller, Spell Point Cloak (Vacuum II), Eerie Belt, Lorinthor's Ring (for +2 exceptional Con lol, and it's a str +6 ring which I won't need next life), Gloves of the Glacier, In progress Ash II HP item GS Boots, Sanura's Band, and Epic Robe of Shadow. I don't have space for a sheild in my build and prefer stoneskin.

Also, as I said before, we are wizards, we can change our spells for certain situations. If I wanted to keep my spells static I would have played a sorc. And I feel we have plenty of spell slots already, I don't think we need more than the 45 we get already.