Please, for the love of all thats sacred......

[Phidius]

full umd ranks access + bonus skill points + evasion on a low HP class + synergy with the prime important trap stat Int.
trap skills are just icing

all of that for a measly -1 DC ( -1 levels & -2 Int capstone)

me personally I'll take a WF 18wiz/2 rogue swiss army knife over cap wiz. Been meaning to roll one , just havent yet due to monk addiction with a pally chaser.

Fixed that for you (in red and black)... there's no loss additional loss to DCs due to being 18 wizard (or 17 for that matter).

Spell Penetration is what's affected by the loss of casting levels.

[Tobril]

A stack of Raise Dead scrolls is pretty cheap, and the entertainment is well worth it

Dammit, now the people in the office think I'm crazy just because I broke out in laughter for no apparent reason...

[t0r012]

Fixed that for you (in red and black)... there's no loss additional loss to DCs due to being 18 wizard (or 17 for that matter).

Spell Penetration is what's affected by the loss of casting levels.

thanks!

[Waylayer]

I've never understood the wizard/rogue thing. Why on earth would you give up your capstone, spell points and DC for evasion and trap skills? Trap skills are almost like anuses, seems like everyone has them. At cap, you simply don't need them. They are redundant. Between exploiter builds and various other rogue multiclasses that have better synergy with rogue, seems like at least 25% of characters have fully developed trap skills.

With 30 resists, you don't need evasion except for traps, and on hard and elite, you need improved evasion to survive traps to disable them anyway. You need every DC you can get for epic.

I'll go away now.

I am not debating anything you have said - it is quite probably all valid, for a particular play style.

However, MY wizard/rogue complements my static group. I get the traps and locks and keep my son topped off with "Reconstructs"; my wife provides the melee DPS; and my son makes fun off all of the mobs - so that they attack him instead of us. In our group, my character is the only one that can manage to fulfill their primary role AND deal with the traps. We will never do epics - we probably will never complete a raid of any significance; but we do have fun.

[Phidius]

Dammit, now the people in the office think I'm crazy just because I broke out in laughter for no apparent reason...

Congrats on your new job - how long were you able to keep them in the dark?

Or have you not been using the sheep and paper bag jokes in the office?

[Sarisa]

The loss of the spell penetration is what's annoying. The one DC is not enough to really make much of a difference in the "easy" epics. The loss of 2 spell pen makes a huge difference in landing spells on epic Drow and in Amrath. It's FAR more noticeable now that Mass Hold Monster has an SR check.

In areas where squeezing every last bit of DC and Spell Pen isn't important, I'd much rather have a well built and well played wiz/rogue in party because they're WAY more survivable. The evasion and full UMD makes a huge difference in what they can bring to the party. The trap skills are just a bonus.

As for full rogues wanting the parts...Most of the rogues I see that have any interest in the parts are ones that don't even have the HP to survive a half-damage whack with Improved Evasion. Checking on them, they also have a worse reflex save than my Warchanter (Axesinger variant), yet alone the reflex save my wizard/rogue has. Then, either because of a lack of equipment or failing to activate a boost, they end up blowing the box anyway. This is not to say ALL rogues who desire parts are like that, but by far the majority in PUG situations are.

In the past month, only one trap has killed my wiz/rogue due to a failed reflex save. I have failed reflex saves, but I have enough HP to survive, get out of the trap, and then toss myself a heal scroll. That trap was the west side trap in Epic VoN5, one with a notoriously high save required.

[Krag]

full umd ranks access + bonus skill points + evasion on a low HP class + synergy with the prime important trap stat Int.
trap skills are just icing

all of that for a measly -1 DC (2 Int capstone)

me personally I'll take a WF 18wiz/2 rogue swiss army knife over cap wiz. Been meaning to roll one , just havent yet due to monk addiction with a pally chaser.

Don't forget the loss of 4 high-level spell slots, 2 Spell Penetration and bonus feat.

[varusso]

Why a rogue 'splash' is better than a 'pure' rogue:
If someone has ONE lvl of rogue, its virtually guaranteed they are a trapper. If they have 2 lvls, they may be a trapper, or they may have it just for evasion. More likely for both.
If someone has multiple lvls of rogue, there is a high chance they are running some sort of assassin build, suck at traps, and WONT TELL YOU until you are in the quest and depending on them to do it.
A pure rogue is pot luck; a rogue splash is almost always going to be a trapper. Odds are certainly stacked in that direction.
A rogue splash can do other things. Most common of course is the wiz/rog. If you really need it explained WHY the wiz/rog is such a good combo/valuable asset to the party -- well sorry but I just cant be the one to explain why clouds make rain to you

Why a pure rogue is better than a rogue splash:
A rogue splash can get skills high enough to do their job, assuming they build and gear for it. A pure rogue can get the same skill lvls though enhancements and built-in feats, with less effort. They can get higher skills with the same effort. This means they can do the same job at a lower lvl and/or with less effort than the splash. This is useful if you are trying to complete a quest at a higher lvl or diff than the party level. At level or above? Doesnt matter. If you need a 40 DD for guaranteed success, then it doesnt matter if you have a 40 or a 60. Its just easier/faster for a pure rogue to get to that 40 (assuming they build for it of course).
A pure rogue can also bring the hurt in terms of sustainable DPS (defining this as not requiring use of resources such as cooldowns and SP -- splashes can do this as well, usually using up a resource in the process, so not 'sustainable' per se).

I run wiz/rog -- alot. Love em. Keep tweaking my builds and gear to get an extra bit out of them every chance I get. TRed my wiz/rog into another wiz/rog, changing a few things to improve him. The fact that whenever I join a PUG that is looking for a rog, and the star asks me if I can handle the traps makes me cringe at the fact that there are so many crappy rogues out there that they even feel the need to ask. I die a little inside every time I am slot 6 and someone says 'dude we need a rogue for this quest'. ~sigh~

I also run bard/rog, rgr/rog, and even a barb/rog. Personally I think I shouldnt have to de-rage to disable traps. I should be able to bash the control box with my face (like a non-rog barb would do) and roll my DD check that way. And I consistently get any at-lvl traps without failure. And I do my 'other job' as well. Now, if a <cough> 'real rogue' joins the group, either before or after me, I let them handle the traps (if they can). I have rogue skills for convenience, not epeen, and for the evasion. If they want trap parts, they can have em. But if you are a sub-par rogue, I will do what is best for the GROUP and get the traps myself. And if you complain about 'stealing your parts' I will tell you exactly what you can do with yourself. First, they arent YOUR parts unless you do your job and get the traps. If you didnt burn a thieves tool, they arent 'yours'. Second, 'stealing parts' implies that I got parts. I didnt. Success of the mission outweighs your desire to risk blowing a trap because you SUCK, on the off-chance you MIGHT disable the trap and get parts from it. And who said they were 'yours' to begin with anyway? Personally I think they belong to the healer O.o

[Kages]

Why a rogue 'splash' is better than a 'pure' rogue:
If someone has ONE lvl of rogue, its virtually guaranteed they are a trapper. If they have 2 lvls, they may be a trapper, or they may have it just for evasion. More likely for both.
If someone has multiple lvls of rogue, there is a high chance they are running some sort of assassin build, suck at traps, and WONT TELL YOU until you are in the quest and depending on them to do it.
A pure rogue is pot luck; a rogue splash is almost always going to be a trapper. Odds are certainly stacked in that direction.
A rogue splash can do other things. Most common of course is the wiz/rog. If you really need it explained WHY the wiz/rog is such a good combo/valuable asset to the party -- well sorry but I just cant be the one to explain why clouds make rain to you

Why a pure rogue is better than a rogue splash:
A rogue splash can get skills high enough to do their job, assuming they build and gear for it. A pure rogue can get the same skill lvls though enhancements and built-in feats, with less effort. They can get higher skills with the same effort. This means they can do the same job at a lower lvl and/or with less effort than the splash. This is useful if you are trying to complete a quest at a higher lvl or diff than the party level. At level or above? Doesnt matter. If you need a 40 DD for guaranteed success, then it doesnt matter if you have a 40 or a 60. Its just easier/faster for a pure rogue to get to that 40 (assuming they build for it of course).
A pure rogue can also bring the hurt in terms of sustainable DPS (defining this as not requiring use of resources such as cooldowns and SP -- splashes can do this as well, usually using up a resource in the process, so not 'sustainable' per se).

I run wiz/rog -- alot. Love em. Keep tweaking my builds and gear to get an extra bit out of them every chance I get. TRed my wiz/rog into another wiz/rog, changing a few things to improve him. The fact that whenever I join a PUG that is looking for a rog, and the star asks me if I can handle the traps makes me cringe at the fact that there are so many crappy rogues out there that they even feel the need to ask. I die a little inside every time I am slot 6 and someone says 'dude we need a rogue for this quest'. ~sigh~

I also run bard/rog, rgr/rog, and even a barb/rog. Personally I think I shouldnt have to de-rage to disable traps. I should be able to bash the control box with my face (like a non-rog barb would do) and roll my DD check that way. And I consistently get any at-lvl traps without failure. And I do my 'other job' as well. Now, if a <cough> 'real rogue' joins the group, either before or after me, I let them handle the traps (if they can). I have rogue skills for convenience, not epeen, and for the evasion. If they want trap parts, they can have em. But if you are a sub-par rogue, I will do what is best for the GROUP and get the traps myself. And if you complain about 'stealing your parts' I will tell you exactly what you can do with yourself. First, they arent YOUR parts unless you do your job and get the traps. If you didnt burn a thieves tool, they arent 'yours'. Second, 'stealing parts' implies that I got parts. I didnt. Success of the mission outweighs your desire to risk blowing a trap because you SUCK, on the off-chance you MIGHT disable the trap and get parts from it. And who said they were 'yours' to begin with anyway? Personally I think they belong to the healer O.o

Long winded but nice. Agreed and +1

[HallowedOne]

I've never understood the wizard/rogue thing. Why on earth would you give up your capstone, spell points and DC for evasion and trap skills? Trap skills are almost like anuses, seems like everyone has them. At cap, you simply don't need them. They are redundant. Between exploiter builds and various other rogue multiclasses that have better synergy with rogue, seems like at least 25% of characters have fully developed trap skills.

With 30 resists, you don't need evasion except for traps, and on hard and elite, you need improved evasion to survive traps to disable them anyway. You need every DC you can get for epic.

I'll go away now.

Aside from beeing (almost) totally immune to one of the highest forms of damage on epic called casters? Having full ranks into UMD, DD, Search, and maybe even Hide/MS for Shadow Mage fun? By sacrificing 1 DC and virtually staying the same thing if you go Enchant AM path?

[Dexxaan]

So Hermespan


How´s your day going so far?

Feel...... "enlightened" yet?





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