Crafting Upgrade Affix Overwrite, please

[bbqzor]

Hello, a simple request which I feel will *greatly* increase the usefulness of crafting.

Currently on Live, when I try to upgrade an affix to a new affix, it says the affix slot is used and I need to re-deconstruct the item to apply it. This is not intuitive, and it makes upgrading crafted items as you progress prohibitive.

I propose that it would be better if you could simply overwrite the old, with the new. An example:

Suppose one had a +1 Natural Armor Ring, made at low levels both to gain xp with the shard and then equip to use while leveling. Then as you progressed, you became able to craft a +2 Natural Armor Shard. You cannot directly apply the +2 over the +1, instead you have to strip the ring back to a blank, and then reapply the +2 from scratch.

Now, if that was the only mod on the ring, it would be no issue. But suppose it was a weapon, like a +1 Holy Kopesh of Lesser Evil Outsider Bane. And you wanted to upgrade that to a regular Evil Outsider Bane. Having to start all over here provides a significant increase in cost. Rather, it would be preferable if the higher level Bane overwrote the lower level one.

While a broad 'anything can overwrite anything' implementation may be something unintended for some balancing reasons (and because of the possible accidents with a misclick), I can see no reason why upgrading matched lines of effects should be disallowed. Going from Superior Nihil II to Superior Nihil III on a scepter, is both a logical progression and one that people will actually use while playing. And it is very unlikely to result in a mistake item, as barring some very specific examples it would always be a direct upgrade. Finally, perhaps critically, it makes crafting lower level items much less of a waste, but something that may offer a fun chance for usable loot as you go.

It may take adding recipies (for example, instead of only allowing a blank item to take an affix, the engine would have to allow a blank item, as well as the various lower tiers of whatever effect, as legal combinations). And this may mean theres like 5x the total recipies now, so I realize its not necessarily an easy to code change.

But it is one that would make the crafting system infinitely more usable, enjoyable, and intuitive for everyone involved.

Thanks for taking the time, I hope it helps. Cheers.

[Asketes]

there is logic to this


/signed


Not much I can add to the OP to make it clearer.

Allowing an already crafted item to have certain parts of it to be upgraded is a real bonus that I would like to see implemented.

[simsiim]

First want to say , I'm not disagreeing , I like the idea, and was thinking about that a month ago, but never said anything, and here's why

You lose nothing, there is not a chance to Break your item in a Failure, and the item becomes lost for ever
the extras cost is what 2X PP for a Decon thingy, and your time spent at the deconstruction device

like I said, I think it's a great idea, but not needed

[bbqzor]

Just to address two points:

...You lose nothing...

...the extras cost is what 2X PP for a Decon thingy, and your time...

Re: Losing the item; you cannot lose the item in either case (the way it is now, or in the proposed change). So the core item itself, and the completed affix shards, are not at risk in either scenario. I think this is what you meant, so you're correct and I agree it should never be at risk, just wanted to clarify it to be sure.

Re: Extra cost; this is where you're a bit off. In the ring example above, you indeed only lose a few moments and a paltry sum to swap out affixes. But consider the weapon example given after. To upgrade the +1 Holy Kopesh of Lesser Evil Outsider Bane to a +1 Holy Kopesh of Evil Outsider Bane, you lose a lot more. Currently, you would have to strip the weapon entirely down, then remake and reapply the +1, the Holy, and finally the new Evil Outsider Bane suffix.

This makes the cost of any incremental upgrade equal to the total of everything on the weapon at that time plus the new increment, at every point of upgrade that occurs. What I propose would eliminate those costs and simply allow you to pay for the new increment alone, without redoing the entire item. The idea is to allow progressive item use, instead of encouraging people to spend nothing until they can craft the top tier, simply because the low ones are a recurring expense.

I hope that makes it a bit clearer. Thanks for the support so far guys. It is appreciated, and Im glad Im not the only one who feels its a good concept.

[Cardtrick]

I would like this. It makes logical sense and it makes gameplay sense.

[Full_Bleed]

I agree with the notion that you should be able to "upgrade" characteristics that are the same without a total decon.

The way I think this could be implemented is to allow the creation of "Upgrade Shards." This should be something simple like adding a certain amount of dragonshards to an existing crafting shard (some number based on the level of the shard.) The point would be to increase the cost of upgrading while not making a system that costs as much time and resources as it would cost to decon the entire item and start over again. The various Siberys shards might fit this task well enough.

[kcru]

There's no great reason why you shouldn't be able to replace any element directly on a crafted item. If they want to keep EVERYONE from doing it, they could require the a skill level high enough to have crafted the shard... (ie. primary character or major crafter can do it, not joe schmoe that just buys the shards from the AH.)


Or they could make it so that only bound crafted items can be upgrade this way. Either way, I agree that it's a mechanic that should exist.

[fyrst.grok]

As long as it doesn't increase the lag we have after U9, I'm all for it.. If it does.. I'd rather spend a little extra than die in cakewalk quests like shroud.

[Cardtrick]

As long as it doesn't increase the lag we have after U9, I'm all for it.. If it does.. I'd rather spend a little extra than die in cakewalk quests like shroud.

In what possible way could this contribute to lag? I'm not sure I see the connection.

[MrkGrismer]

I see a couple of problems with this:

1) It is Good™ and Logical™ and thus has no place in DDO (half-joking, but seriously for this reason alone it will never happen)
2) If this where implemented a person with a bag full of shards could, in theory at least, replace the powers on his +15 (at some point) weapon virtually 'at will'. We would wind up with crafting timers on weapons. Ack!

[Cardtrick]

2) If this where implemented a person with a bag full of shards could, in theory at least, replace the powers on his +15 (at some point) weapon virtually 'at will'. We would wind up with crafting timers on weapons. Ack!

That's a good point, actually. It might be better to restrict this to strict upgrades. So you can improve lesser bane to bane or greater bane, or a +3 weapon to a +5 weapon; but you can't have a +5 Holy Burst Silver of _ that you swap between Greater Evil Outsider Bane and Greater Undead Bane at will.

[uncus2]

I think it is the way it is to keep people from overwriting a prefix [or suffix] with another accidentally.

[Tsuarok]

/signed

I like the idea aesthetically. I like the new crafting system because I like the idea of weapons that improve as you do. Stripping the item entirely just looses that feel.

[kcru]

2) If this where implemented a person with a bag full of shards could, in theory at least, replace the powers on his +15 (at some point) weapon virtually 'at will'. We would wind up with crafting timers on weapons. Ack!

You can only do it at the alter... not "at will." Instead of replacing the shard, he could just make 3 weapons and not continually waste shards.

[MrkGrismer]

You can only do it at the alter... not "at will." Instead of replacing the shard, he could just make 3 weapons and not continually waste shards.

I said virtually at will. But this is the same reason there is a timer on resetting enhancements and on changing out spells on spontaneous casters, to prevent changing certain items in order to do certain quests.

And no, he could not just make 3 weapons because what we are talking about here is just replacing ONE of FOUR things with a new and different power. Those four things:

1) Base weapon (including material and guild augment or not)
2) Enhancement (+1 thru +5)
3) Prefix
4) Suffix

As mentioned above, a person could just have their +5 Holy Silver Kopesh of Greater ____ Bane and swap the bane for whatever is in the quest they feel like doing at that moment. Without having to make a bunch of weapons and keeping them in their character bank.

I love the idea, but there would have to be some type of limiter for the above reason.

[bbqzor]

If this where implemented a person with a bag full of shards could, in theory at least, replace the powers on his +15 (at some point) weapon virtually 'at will'.

This is precisely why I propose the change be limited to 'upgrades' only. What I mean is, you can turn Flaming into Flaming Burst, or Gnoll Bane into Greater Gnoll Bane, but you cannot just overwrite whats current on the item with anything you wish.

By allowing overwrites only to the specific affixes already on the item, you prevent this problem before it even gets started, and only enable linear upgrading to take place.

Thanks for making sure game balance is not negatively affected by this (or any other, for that matter) change. Nothing is worse than implementations which wind up negatively affecting game balance, and Im glad everyone is keeping an eye on that line. Cheers.

[ImFour20]

im cool with this, IF they give a warning that you're about to replace something

[kcru]

I said virtually at will. But this is the same reason there is a timer on resetting enhancements and on changing out spells on spontaneous casters, to prevent changing certain items in order to do certain quests.

Yes, because those things are relatively cheap and you only get one spell book. The idea is that you DON'T change them out constantly.

In this case, the change is not cheap, and the effect can be replicated simply by having another weapon just like we currently do for "boss beaters" vs "trash mobs"

And no, he could not just make 3 weapons because what we are talking about here is just replacing ONE of FOUR things with a new and different power. Those four things:

1) Base weapon (including material and guild augment or not)
2) Enhancement (+1 thru +5)
3) Prefix
4) Suffix

As mentioned above, a person could just have their +5 Holy Silver Kopesh of Greater ____ Bane and swap the bane for whatever is in the quest they feel like doing at that moment. Without having to make a bunch of weapons and keeping them in their character bank.

I love the idea, but there would have to be some type of limiter for the above reason.

The +5 holy isn't any worse than swapping Greater Banes all the time. If the problem is that people are going to do this constantly it's still cheaper to just make multiples and save yourself the grief... and then you can swap IN THE FIELD.

One doesn't need silver on every weapon... if we're talking about tailoring weapons to a particular challenge then the silver is a waste on the vast bulk of encounters and you can make do with normal steel, or would need Adamantine instead anyway.


You're creating an imaginary problem where one doesn't exist. We all swap gear based on the encounter. Switching out properties is the least effective way to get a gear change, especially if it's a short-term usage.

[ThomasMink]

Currently on Live, when I try to upgrade an affix to a new affix, it says the affix slot is used and I need to re-deconstruct the item to apply it. This is not intuitive, and it makes upgrading crafted items as you progress prohibitive.

Hello there! I'm not sure if it is still this way on Lamannia or not, but you can currently accomplish this on live. There is a Gameplay Setting in the Options that says "Disable crafting overwrite messages". Just check that box and you don't have to worry about re-deconstructing your item every time you want to replace a shard that was added to it.

No idea why leaving it unchecked makes you re-deconstruct items and checking the box does not. Then again, by checking the box for the setting.. you get no prompt at all of something being replaced. *shrug*

[MrkGrismer]

Yes, because those things are relatively cheap and you only get one spell book. The idea is that you DON'T change them out constantly.

In this case, the change is not cheap, and the effect can be replicated simply by having another weapon just like we currently do for "boss beaters" vs "trash mobs"

The +5 holy isn't any worse than swapping Greater Banes all the time. If the problem is that people are going to do this constantly it's still cheaper to just make multiples and save yourself the grief... and then you can swap IN THE FIELD.

One doesn't need silver on every weapon... if we're talking about tailoring weapons to a particular challenge then the silver is a waste on the vast bulk of encounters and you can make do with normal steel, or would need Adamantine instead anyway.


You're creating an imaginary problem where one doesn't exist. We all swap gear based on the encounter. Switching out properties is the least effective way to get a gear change, especially if it's a short-term usage.

If one can just make multiple versions of the weapons then why not just do so? If doing so would be 'easier and cheaper' than swapping shards than why would swapping shards be desirable?

I am mostly playing devil's advocate here anyway, like I said I like the idea but I don't see it happening because I am pretty sure the devs really don't like the idea of people being able to change the weapon qualities like that.

I do like the idea of 'upgrades' (flame touch to flaming to flaming burst, etc.) tho. The 'shards of potential' show that such would be possible.