Making "Divine Might" of equal value to its cost

[Tapsimanxer]

This isn't nearly as important, but I would also like some graphics to represent the PnP origin of this enhancement- like a much larger image of your toon surrounding you, much like harry in phase 5 (but not that big). Maybe have different sizes based on tier?

I would love to see that^^^^

And yeah, longer duration for the buff would be sweet. It's really too short for big boss fights.

[Ralmeth]

Perhaps THF = extra 10% duration
ITHF = additional 30% duration
GTHF = additional 60% duration (totaling double duration)

EDIT: At above poster

DM does need some help to make it more user friendly, however please do NOT tie it to having the THF feats. Paladin's are feat starved and I don't see any reason for doing this. If the developers want to more balance the DPS of THF vs TWF than the OPs suggestion of making the damage higher when THF makes more sense.

Personally, I think that the duration of DM should be shortened to the casting time of divine favor and zeal. This is probably my biggest issue with DM as it's painful to recast when you're in the middle of a fight.

As the developers are looking at doing their intro guides for newer players I hope when they look at Paladins they realize that:
1) A lot of newer players to DDO that want to play a Paladin want to play a S&B tank.
2) It's impossible to make a 28 point Paladin tank that isn't gimped when you get to higher levels because you need good a Strength, Con, Intelligence and Charisma (Dex is needed for an advanced build & epic armor...but tha'ts not new player friendly). If the developers think that it is possible to build a good Pally tank as a 28 point character with no tomes, then I would LOVE to see them post their build.

As such, I think the suggestion that DM provides some level of to hit (I like +1 to hit per tier of DM) is the way to solve this. This would allow a new Pally tank to start their strength at a 14 instead of the almost required 16. This will free up just enough build points to get con, int and charisma to a high enough level. The new player will also not have the highest + to hit weapon and highest strength item so this would really help them out.If the developers did this, then the starting attributes on a human 28 point pally could be as follows as an example with the additional + to hit making up for the lower starting strength.

Str: 14 (6 points)
Dex: 8 (0 points)
Con: 14 (6 points)
Int: 14 (6 points) - CE prereq with no tomes
Wis: 8 (0 points)
Char: 16 (10 points)
--------------------
28 total points

[ceiswyn]

Even for a battlecleric, getting enough wisdom to cast lvl9 spells is easy, any additional investment would only be for a minor amount of SP (11 base + 2tome +6 item is enough, and better gear can get you with less of an investment).

Heh. Obviously you run with better raid groups than I do. My healbot needs every point of my 2202 mana; I worry that my battlecleric is only just going to cut it in the high-level raids.

[justagame]

Totally disagree with the 1.5 damage bonus for 2HF

Dex builds need to invest 8(ish) build points into dex, then buy a tome.
Much harder for a 2WF toon to finish with the CHR needed for DMIV - they have to sacrifice elsewhere to do so.

Plus, there's nobody saying you're forbidden from being a 2WF toon yourself anyway!

Let's not make this a defensive TWF vs THF debate. Besides, virtually all of the other pally benefits advantage TWF (divine favor, div sac, smites, kotc, capstone, etc.). This wouldn't tip the scales by any stretch of the imagination. And, as suggested by the name "divine MIGHT", having a benefit that was proportional to the THF strength benefit (i.e., 1.5x for THF) wouldn't be out of line at all, IMO. I think it would be a totally appropriate change.

Faster casting time would be a major improvement, though, given the short duration, I wholeheartedly agree with that. Casting it in the middle of a long battle costs you several swings, which makes the dps gain dubious, depending on how much time is left in the fight. I'd be careful about extending the duration, it could very well make it OP.

[Phidius]

...in theory. In practice, why would we bother??

I remember looking at DM on my battlecleric, realising that it involved heavily investing in a stat I otherwise had no use for at the cost of, oh, irrelevant little things like strength and wisdom, and taking Divine Cleansing instead.

The stat requirement may be fine for a paladin, but is kind of lunatic for a cleric.

Nah, clerics don't need more than 15 + 3 tome to qualify for their highest level of DM.

Heh. Obviously you run with better raid groups than I do. My healbot needs every point of my 2202 mana; I worry that my battlecleric is only just going to cut it in the high-level raids.

The raids I can't heal on my 1200 spell point "cleric" I can't heal with 5000 spell points bottled up. I've tried.

I submit for your consideration a truly enlightening read... The Path to Enlightenment

[joneb1999]

Clerics need a slight boost to make using turns for Divine Might more worthwhile as they need to balance it with keeping back turns for Radiant Servant. As already discussed the casting time and limited duration for Divine Might make it questionable as whether to put more ability points into charisma and enhancement points into the feat to get DM to a decent level.

At the very least DM needs fast cast and some duration extension.

[ceiswyn]

The raids I can't heal on my 1200 spell point "cleric" I can't heal with 5000 spell points bottled up. I've tried.

Really? I find 1200 vs 2200 makes a huge difference. I couldn't solo-heal guild Shrouds on the former, but I'm not sure who that says most about

I submit for your consideration a truly enlightening read... The Path to Enlightenment

Interestingly, I skipped the 'over-healer' stage entirely; waste my precious, precious mana?! I think not! I'm probably at about stage 5 or 6... my original cleric's a healbot who I've added some offensive casting ability to, but the newer ones should be nice all-rounders. I have been watching and learning from the masters

[yawumpus]

It's nothing like 16 strength.

16 Strength is also EIGHT attack bonus.
16 Strength is also EIGHT combat tactic DC
16 Strength is also TWELVE damage for THF
its also (although arguably irrelevant) some carrying weight, jump, and swim and prevents trip.

There is simply no rational way to compare the divine might buff to strength at all.

16 strength gives +8/+4 on each hand (unless your monk gets buffed out to 26 strength).
DM 4 gives +8/+8 on each hand (unless I'm mistaken).

That makes up for a lot of the other stuff.

[eulogy098]

I don't see how four offhand only damage can even come close to being a match for "the other stuff" but if it's your personal opinion that it is, there's no debate to be had. What's your rational for the THF players who are getting -4 damage ?

[Monkey_Archer]

IMO, 5 things should be done for the currently gimped paladin class (yes i have a paladin)

1) Increaes THF damage bonuses just like every other dps class gets in some way or another like this:

Divine Might:

Divine Might I/II/III/IV Activate this ability to gain a +2/4/6/8 (for One-handed weapons) or +3/6/9/12 (for Two-handed weapons) Sacred bonus to damage. Consumes a use of your turn undead ability.

2) Buff the duration of DM/turning like this:

Improved Turning:

- Increases your level for the purposes of turning undead by 1.
- Increases Divine Might duration by 1 minute
- Increases Divine Light damage by 10%

- Increases Divine Righteousness duration or hate (Paladin)
- Increases Divine Cleansing Duration (Cleric)
- Increases Divine Healing healing by 10% (Cleric)
- Increases Spell points given by Divine Vitality by 10% (Cleric)

3) Reduce AP costs of the smiting, DM, and turning lines (1/1/1/1 progression)

4) Add an entirely new DPS enhancement line that's not limited to one type of mob (hopefully something that increases attack bonus as well)

5) Nerf KOTC damage by the same amount of dps as increased by the new enhancement line

[eulogy098]

I very much like the idea of having Imp Turning effect such things, but I think that it's an unrealistic expectation. Generally when I make suggestions I try to lean toward "simplish" fixes as it seems more likely to be implemented. I just don't forsee improved turning getting that kind of rebuilding any time soon.

Frankly even my original suggestion is likely too complicated to hope for. Just asking for a basic, flat duration extension is the only best bet I think.

[yawumpus]

I don't see how four offhand only damage can even come close to being a match for "the other stuff" but if it's your personal opinion that it is, there's no debate to be had. What's your rational for the THF players who are getting -4 damage ?

I haven't leveled my paladin up enough to understand all the tohit issues, so I was going by my understanding of other melee classes. With GTWF, +4 in the off hand looks pretty good, and you won't have any feats available for stunning blow, improved trip, or other strength tricks.

I can't help you with your lack of THF damage. I would be more upset about the damage from divine sacrifice (and smites) not being scaled for THF myself. I suspect that turbine is trying to guide all paladins into one build (in this case drow TWF), so they can balance things easier.

[Habreno]

Nah, clerics don't need more than 15 + 3 tome to qualify for their highest level of DM.

Both Clerics and Paladins get up to Divine Might IV with the 20 base CHA requirement, though the odds of a Cleric using DM IV are slim.

[eulogy098]

I can't help you with your lack of THF damage. I would be more upset about the damage from divine sacrifice (and smites) not being scaled for THF myself. .

I don't even minimally consider the fact that smites are already vastly superior for TWF when it comes to my suggestion for Divine Might. My agenda was simply to try to balance DM with its self. And adding 50% increase for THF would clearly do such.

[eulogy098]

The more I play my paladin, the more I hate just about everything about divine might. It's just not worth the sacrifice and needs some developer attention. At least, if nothing else, give it a 2 minute duration.

[Phemt81]

The more I play my paladin, the more I hate just about everything about divine might. It's just not worth the sacrifice and needs some developer attention. At least, if nothing else, give it a 2 minute duration.

I don't even need to try playing a paladin to agree with this .

The enhancement looks cool, but as i already said, would be more balanced in terms of gameplay/usability if it didn't ask for a pure stat of 20 to get its highest benefit in my humble opinion.

[eulogy098]

My biggest issue with Divine Might is that it requires a sacrifice that is more dramatic than I feel the developers understand.

It scales as though it were nothing but an enhancement line. But it's not. It's a potent build changer, an ability that can, on it's own, effect a characters initial build stats and level-up stat investment. It should reward the player properly by being less tedious to maintain (one minute is just not reasonable) and scaling properly for Two-Handed-Weapons (scale it like Power Attack or at least like Strength at 1.5).


Divine Might is a massive sacrifice to acquire. it should not be a massive sacrifice to maintain. And it should reward a player equally(ish) be them THF or TWF.

[TheDearLeader]

My biggest issue with Divine Might is that it requires a sacrifice that is more dramatic than I feel the developers understand.

It scales as though it were nothing but an enhancement line. But it's not. It's a potent build changer, an ability that can, on it's own, effect a characters initial build stats and level-up stat investment. It should reward the player properly by being less tedious to maintain (one minute is just not reasonable) and scaling properly for Two-Handed-Weapons (scale it like Power Attack or at least like Strength at 1.5).


Divine Might is a massive sacrifice to acquire. it should not be a massive sacrifice to maintain. And it should reward a player equally(ish) be them THF or TWF.

Well put, good sir.

[joneb1999]

My biggest issue with Divine Might is that it requires a sacrifice that is more dramatic than I feel the developers understand.

It scales as though it were nothing but an enhancement line. But it's not. It's a potent build changer, an ability that can, on it's own, effect a characters initial build stats and level-up stat investment. It should reward the player properly by being less tedious to maintain (one minute is just not reasonable) and scaling properly for Two-Handed-Weapons (scale it like Power Attack or at least like Strength at 1.5).


Divine Might is a massive sacrifice to acquire. it should not be a massive sacrifice to maintain. And it should reward a player equally(ish) be them THF or TWF.

/signed

[Rubiconn]

I agree with some of the changes to DM, I also like the idea of it adding something to the to-hit but not full ranks perhaps half of the damage so if the damage goes 2/4/6/8 than the to hit could go 1/2/3/4. I have TR'd my pally once and recapped him to correct some mistakes and make him better I will do so again to tweak him a little further, he is a twf and I notice that in Epic he is not hitting as often as he should. Im not asking that pally's be made equal to barbs, fighters or even the little backstabbers but the sacrifice made in stats and ap for DM should yield a good reward. Or maybe the to hit can be added only on DMIV. I dont have as much an issue with the duration but I would like to the see the casting time cut down so its like attack boost.