Making "Divine Might" of equal value to its cost

[eulogy098]

((this is a continuation/replacement of a thread that was in the melee section but makes more sense here))

It's no secret that Divine Might is an extremely costly enhancement. The full rank of it requires that the typical paladin/cleric start with 18 Charisma AND devour a +2 charisma tome (or invest two level-up attribute points). The benefit of this dynamic attribute sacrifice is that the Paladin/Cleric receives a self buff that will last for one minute, use a charge of Turn, have a lengthy cast time and then grant a flat +2 damage per rank (up to 8).

I believe that the reward is too little for the sacrifice. The cast time is too long, the duration far too short (and does not scale at all), and the damage bonus is too low for THF players. Currently Divine Might is drastically better for TWF than THF, however there is nothing innate about the ability that suggest it should be so why not make it equal?

Priority for improving the value of divine might, in my opinion would be-
1.Increasing the duration
2.Increasing the benefit for Two-Handed Weapons by 50% (exactly on par with strength scaling)
3.Reducing the Cast time




My current suggestion for making Divine Might a more worthy ability (see below)
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Divine Might:

Divine Might I/II/III/IV Activate this ability to gain a +2/4/6/8 (for One-handed weapons) or +3/6/9/12 (for Two-handed weapons) Sacred bonus to damage. Consumes a use of your turn undead ability.

The duration of Divine Might is 1 minute + (Charisma modifier x 6) seconds.
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Maybe even just make the ability passive or toggle. Reality is that users have enough charges to maintain Divine Might 100% anyhow, and there is no other cost. Why not just have the blasted ability (considering its extremely high cost) be a passive effect. I'm really leaning hard to find a way to take some of the unnecessary tedium out of the ability, in current for it's simply not fun and at the same time not an option to not have.

I welcome criticism, debate and suggestions. And if anyone suggestes an overall change that is clearly better thought than my suggestion- i will gladly edit this post to put that in.

[Xenostrata]

I like your suggestions, but thay don't address the fact that this ability takes up 1/8 of the APs on an AP starved class. I would suggest that Divine Might be usable as a prereq in exalted smite and divine sacrifice, which are the other two big drains on a paladin's APs. Normally, they require Extra Smite I-IV, whichc is a mostly useless chain that also costs 10 AP. Substituting Divine Might would save most paladins 10 APs from NOT taking extra smite, and they wouldn't make low cha builds easier to use AP wise, since they would need to take extra smite instead of divine might.

[Valindria]

Along those lines:

My suggestion is to have the Improved Turning enhancements modify all turn based actions.

For example:

Improved Turning:

- Increases your level for the purposes of turning undead by 1.
- Increases Divine Might duration by 1 minute
- Increases Divine Light damage by 10%

- Increases Divine Righteousness duration or hate (Paladin)
- Increases Divine Cleansing Duration (Cleric)
- Increases Divine Healing healing by 10% (Cleric)
- Increases Spell points given by Divine Vitality by 10% (Cleric)

This could be for the feat and the enhancements.

Because lets face it improved turning sucks. I am not saying your suggestions are bad. I like your ideas. I just want to add mine into the mix (Potentially increasing duration or damage of DM). Both changes could be made in some form. It would be a bump to HotD since they are required to take Improved Turning. Everyone else could choose to take them as they see fit.

[Lithic]

If you can hit divine might 4, wouldn't that mean you probably have a 28 charisma (18 base, +2 tome, +6 item, +2 pally enhancements)? Thats like 13 base turns, more if you are hunter of the dead, more if you take any enhancements, and more if you have cleric past lives.

13mins between shrines isn't enough?


As for reducing the casting time, I've been playing with it for Stars current and last lives, and its about the casting time of a normal instant buff spell. I don't see a problem with it at all. Or does it get longer with the higher tiers? I've only ever bothered to get the first or second tiers.

[Aelonwy]

The duration of Divine Might is 1 minute + (Charisma modifier x 10) seconds.

/signed

I agree to all your points, well thought out and stated. I especially like the increased duration suggestion. Since duration is really my only issue with these enhancements.

Might I suggest that each subsequent tier of Divine Might also slighty increase duration such that (1 minute + (Charisma modifier x 10) seconds) becomes the base duration with DM II adding 5 seconds more, DM III adding another 10 seconds, and DM IV adding a final 15 seconds for a total of an additional 30 seconds for taking the whole enhancement chain.

[khaldan]

If you can hit divine might 4, wouldn't that mean you probably have a 28 charisma (18 base, +2 tome, +6 item, +2 pally enhancements)? Thats like 13 base turns, more if you are hunter of the dead, more if you take any enhancements, and more if you have cleric past lives.

13mins between shrines isn't enough?


As for reducing the casting time, I've been playing with it for Stars current and last lives, and its about the casting time of a normal instant buff spell. I don't see a problem with it at all. Or does it get longer with the higher tiers? I've only ever bothered to get the first or second tiers.

This is more about the huge difference between casting DM, and other spells like divine favor and zeal now, which have barely any cast time and last between 2 and 4 minutes, as opposed to DM's 1 minute buff and very slow cast time in comparison.

[TheDearLeader]

Bump for great justice. I support Divine Might having some sort of change.

[eulogy098]

It's not a matter of nothing having Divine Might up enough, its a matter of the tedium of maintaining it. 13 Minutes is plenty enough that you can keep it for jsut about forever. So since we can have it forever anyhow (or nearly so) why not just make it simpler to maintain. Stopping all action for that super long cast time every 60 seconds , when all of your other buffs are at a totally different timer is extremely tedious.


Not to mention the fact that DM is still drastically superior for TWF over THF.

[Darkrok]

Yeah, short-term buffs start to have non-trivial cast times compared to the dps lots when casting it. If you've got a toon attacking 162 times a minute (90 main-hand/72 offhand) you're adding 1296 damage per minute or 21.6 dps with DMIV. However, let's say it takes you 1.5 seconds to trigger it and get back into the attack animation. At 300dps you're losing 450 damage of the 1296 damage we're gaining. The only way you avoid that loss is by triggering it out of melee but then you lose some of the 1296 based on the timer (unless you can seemlessly trigger it outside of combat all the time). I've seen some projections of dps for pure paladins in the 500+ range in which case over half of your gained damage would be lost by 1.5 seconds of downtime to trigger DM.

The point is that these short-term buffs have an opportunity cost that in some cases eliminate their efficacy unless triggered outside of combat. A toon that has outstanding dps (say 500) but only has DMII for some reason would actually be better served to NEVER fire off the DMII while in combat as the damage cost (750) would outweigh the damage gained assuming that smites, etc, were used on cooldown in both situations.

[Xenostrata]

This isn't nearly as important, but I would also like some graphics to represent the PnP origin of this enhancement- like a much larger image of your toon surrounding you, much like harry in phase 5 (but not that big). Maybe have different sizes based on tier?

I just like the idea of running around as a giant, especially if you are running a halfling paladin.

[Aelonwy]

I just like the idea of running around as a giant, especially if you are running a halfling paladin.

This really made me smile.... I miss the aracane spell that did something like this.... Enlarge Person. =) PnP havoc going around Enlarging halflings and reducing halforcs in taverns that couldn't prevent or detect spellcasting.

[whomhead]

1.Increasing the duration
2.Increasing the benefit for Two-Handed Weapons by 50% (exactly on par with strength scaling)
3.Reducing the Cast time

/signed on all of these, but I would actually reverse the order.

Reducing the cast times should have been done with the spell pass (alongside Zeal and Divine Power) and the benefit to DM + THF should have been instated at the creation of the skill. The last one would be great, but is not IMO needed.

[Alternative]

It would be really nice if Divine Might added to-hit along with damage. Other classes have abilities that boost both damage and to-hit: power surge, rages, stances, sneak attack, and whatever tempest gets. Paladins are far behind, and while it doesn't matter at all in regular content, in epics they are at serious disadvantage. It wouldn't add to dps so it shouldn't be that big a deal, and new paladins who want to try epics would be able to hit non EO mobs more reliably; also it would justify the high DM cost a bit.

I also like the idea about the DM duration being based on cha, it's such a pita having to pay attention to all those short buffs, divine sacrifice etc.

[eulogy098]

I do not agree with DM adding attack bonus. I believe it should be raw damage only.

[TheKaige]

I'd argue for removing the cast time completely.

Any thing that adds up just straight damage, not + to hit, enhanced critical range, or attack haste, is eventually not worth casting for a high enough DPS toon; the DPS added isn't worth the casting time.

Soooo, since DM is just straight up damage, I would argue that it should be instantaneous. (They made Frenzy instantaneous, and it's both damage + an attack boost. With potentially unlimited use)

Or what I'd like to see even more is a "sustained" option for DM; if you have the "sustained" option on, every minute after the first time you cast it (Normal casting time if this was implemented) it gets renewed and eats a tick of your Turn Undeads, without your character having to stop to cast it.

Of course, I'd be more than willing to settle for the new Zeal/DF casting time.

[guyge1]

Bump for great justice. I support Divine Might having some sort of change.

I Vote for a Change! It is a tough choice with such a limited amount of resources because Paladins are spread so thin anyways stats, feats & AP. AP Spent for Smites & DM..., also Divine Sacrifice, Divine Righteousness, Toughness x?, Aura x?, KotC/PRE-line, Toughness, Smite Smite Smite , xSmite xSmite xSmite xSmite...Where oh where they all go? Make it worth our while to Load up on all these time consuming buffs we constantly stack.
Cast time is way to long. Especially compared to the new cast speed for Zeal & Divine Favor. It should give more of a bonus for the IV +8 isn't enough.



I love a Pally.
level 20 Capstone THF KotC is a Str max/ Cha max / Con build.

[elraido]

You people need to remember +8 to damage is almost the same as +16 to str (but doesn't effect to hit). That isn't anything to sneeze at.

[Darkrok]

You people need to remember +8 to damage is almost the same as +16 to str (but doesn't effect to hit). That isn't anything to sneeze at.

No, but as I illustrated earlier neither is losing 1.5 seconds of attack time on a high dps toon. That time lost can eat up over half the damage you'd gain from DMIV over a full minute.

[eulogy098]

You people need to remember +8 to damage is almost the same as +16 to str

It's nothing like 16 strength.

16 Strength is also EIGHT attack bonus.
16 Strength is also EIGHT combat tactic DC
16 Strength is also TWELVE damage for THF
its also (although arguably irrelevant) some carrying weight, jump, and swim and prevents trip.

There is simply no rational way to compare the divine might buff to strength at all.

[elraido]

It's nothing like 16 strength.

16 Strength is also EIGHT attack bonus.
16 Strength is also EIGHT combat tactic DC
16 Strength is also TWELVE damage for THF
its also (although arguably irrelevant) some carrying weight, jump, and swim and prevents trip.

There is simply no rational way to compare the divine might buff to strength at all.

I said almost. I am all for removing the casting time (make it like loh, and instant effect). But adding more damage or adding to hit, that is asking too much.