Best TR'd Tank

[Killage]

Howdy Yall,
Let me start by saying I love tanking. I really want to build the best tank I can through TR'ing and taking advantage of the past life abilities. That being said I'd like to poll the vets, or anyone smarter than I, to help me figure my path before I take a bad turn.

Just by looking at the past life abilities, I think this would be the best path to take;

FIGHTER x 3: purchasable feats will give me a total of +6 intim. and +3 max dex with armor and shields.
BARBARIAN x 3: purchasable feats will give me a total of +6 intim. +3 hp/lvl and a Rage clicky.(-2AC sux though) also the passive past life feat will give me a total of 30 extra hp.
PALADIN x 3: passive feats will give me a total of +15% inc. heals.


Now, I don't want to do any more TR'ing than I need to. So I'm not doing Bard x 3 to get me +3 to intim. or rogue x 3 to get me +3 to intim. or monk for the evasion feat as I'll be in heavy/medium armor.

[Nahual]

3 monk adds 3 damage and evasion clickie if you want to take the feat

[Shade]

Purchasable feats can only be taken once, so your numbers would drop a bit there.

Ftrs still worth it tho for the +1 hit/tactics per go. Imo the best overall one.

Even for a "tank"

[maddmatt70]

Past lives benefit various build types unequally. Offensive Spellcasters have a huge advantage over virtually every other build type for past lives because they get the best benefit. From a max-min standpoint melee of all types gain less then spellcasters through past lives. Not sure it is worth it to me to tr a melee a bunch of times in order to accumulate past lives.

[Aalric]

3 Monk TR's is +3 dmg. 3 fighter TR's is + 3 to hit. That's the equivalent of +6 strength. How much work & grind would you go to to get + 6 str on your melee? Perhaps that is the question - to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what is the answer.

Oh, the purchasable Pally feat gives you 3 x Divine might. According to the wiki, each lasts around 2 minutes, which would be nice in boss fight. Just something to think about.

The rest of the melee feats are somewhat meh. Now the caster feats, that's something else....

[maddmatt70]

3 Monk TR's is +3 dmg. 3 fighter TR's is + 3 to hit. That's the equivalent of +6 strength. How much work & grind would you go to to get + 6 str on your melee? Perhaps that is the question - to be perfectly honest, I'm not sure what is the answer.

Oh, the purchasable Pally feat gives you 3 x Divine might. According to the wiki, each lasts around 2 minutes, which would be nice in boss fight. Just something to think about.

The rest of the melee feats are somewhat meh. Now the caster feats, that's something else....

If I tr a 3x sorc 1 x wiz and then into FVs that is +4 evocation dcs and +1 overall dcs as well as +2 spell penetration, etc. +4 evocation is pretty overpowering for an FVS and is an increase of about 10% on the primary dcs for most FVS with about 5 lives. The damage and to hit for the melee past lives (3 fighter, 3 monk, 1 pally) you list represents about a 8% gain in melee damage and to-hit which is for 8 lives lol..

[Aalric]

...which is why TR past life feats are better for casters & I can't honestly say that the equivalrnt of +6 str is worth TR'ing 6 times.

Now I have thought of TR'ing 4 times (3 monk & 1 fighter or pally) - that might be worth it...

[Killage]

Thanks guys.

@ Nahual:
Like I said, I'm not going to TR a monk 3 times for +3 damage. Seems like a huge waste of time. And again, I'm going to be in heavy or medium armor so the evasion clicky is not going to work for me.

@ Shade:
You bring up a question about the purchasable past life feats... I was under the assumption that you could buy a past life feat for every life you went through as that class. So after TR'ing 3 times I should be able to buy 3 feats from one class, right?
Tolero posted: Purchasable Feats: These feats have a minimum level of 3 to select, and can be selected more than once.

I did have another question I had forgot to ask is what would make a better tank nowadays, fighter or Paladin? Pallys have super awesome saves, but I don't think they can get as high up in AC as a fighter. Any thoughts?

[Cardtrick]

@ Shade:
You bring up a question about the purchasable past life feats... I was under the assumption that you could buy a past life feat for every life you went through as that class. So after TR'ing 3 times I should be able to buy 3 feats from one class, right?
Tolero posted: Purchasable Feats: These feats have a minimum level of 3 to select, and can be selected more than once.

Not sure the context in which Tolero posted that, but no, unfortunately you're incorrect.

Passive past lives stack up to 3 times (so 3 fighter past lives gives you +3 to to attack bonus and tactics DCs, or 3 paladin lives gives you +15% healing amp). Active past life feats can only be selected once each, however. You can take more than one -- both the fighter and paladin past lives, for example -- but you can't stack the same one multiple times.

[Maren_Vond]

Active past life feats can only be selected once each, however. You can take more than one -- both the fighter and paladin past lives, for example -- but you can't stack the same one multiple times.

I understood that you can have a maximum of two active past life feats. So, after you took fighter and pally, you can't select anymore active feats. All the passive ones will keep stacking tho. Or am I wrong?

Back to the topic:

melee passive past life feats (stacked)
barbarian x3 +30 hit points
fighter x3 +3 tactical feats DC, +3 attack rolls
monk x3 +3 damage rolls
paladin x3 +15% healing amplification
ranger x3 +6 ranged damage, +6 elemental resistances
rogue x3 +6 saves vs traps, +3 sneak attack damage

melee active past life feats
barbarian +20 hit points, +2 intimidate, rage 1/rest
fighter +2 intimidate, +1 maximum dexterity bonus, martial prowess 3/rest
monk +2 concentration, increased unarmed damage, evasive trance 1/rest
paladin +2 heal, divine favor 3/rest
ranger +2 spot, barkskin 3/rest
rogue +1 skills, skulk 3/rest

What really matters in the final decision is the final build. Once you decide what it will be, it is much easier to select the path that will give you the most benefits.

[Cardtrick]

I understood that you can have a maximum of two active past life feats. So, after you took fighter and pally, you can't select anymore active feats. All the passive ones will keep stacking tho. Or am I wrong?

I've never heard that, but I've also never tried.

My understanding, though, is that the active past life feats are each implemented as standard feats, with a single prerequisite: their corresponding passive past life feat. Since the passive feats are provided at level 1, and since the active feats aren't on any bonus feat lists, the first level you could take one is level 3. But after that, I don't think there's anything to prevent you from taking one at level 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, and 18 -- for a possible total of 6 active past life feats. (Anything besides common sense, that is.)

[Killage]

That's what I got from it too, Cardtrick. I'll have to get this confirmed before I start my barb tr'ing.

You say for a total of 6 feats, if it reads the ML for selecting purchasable feats is 3, wouldn't I be able to pick allot more if I was a fighter, since fighters get feats every 2nd lvl.? I guess there comes a balance between these and the normal feats I'd take for tanking as a fighter then. >< Oh well, who need 500+hp when the mobs can't break my AC. lol

Sounds like I got some testing/investigating to do before I move forward.

Thanks for all the help so far guys. 8)

[Cardtrick]

You say for a total of 6 feats, if it reads the ML for selecting purchasable feats is 3, wouldn't I be able to pick allot more if I was a fighter, since fighters get feats every 2nd lvl.? I guess there comes a balance between these and the normal feats I'd take for tanking as a fighter then.

Unfortunately, no. The bonus feats that fighters, monks, and wizards get come from special lists. A fighter's bonus feats can only be selected from this list.

Also, unless a feat specifically states otherwise (like Toughness), you can't take it more than once. That includes all of the active past life feats.

>< Oh well, who need 500+hp when the mobs can't break my AC. lol

Well, you really do need 500+ HP on a fighter, especially one who intends to tank, and preferably higher . . . but you can easily get there with only a single Toughness feat. A lot of it will come from enhancements and gear.

Sounds like I got some testing/investigating to do before I move forward.

I would suggest using Ron's Character Planner to play around with this stuff. It automatically accounts for all of these prerequisites for you, even including past life feats. You can download it here.

[Killage]

Thanks Cardtrick. I'll play around with this and my own testing and see what I can pull off.
+1 rep to you all.