Feedback - Crafting - Update 9, Patch 1

[GotSomeQuestions]

The essences all need to be bound to account or not bound to account.

All essences on the live server are unbound, because you cannot buy them in the store. That "feature" is lammania-only.

[Seikojin]

I like the changes to crafting so far. the only thing that I see that needs a look at is essences.

Since essences you buy from the store are bound to account and the ones in game from quest rewardes or item deconstruct are not. When you put them in the bag they stack together. But when you take them out they separate.

now here is the thing I noticed is.

If you goto craft a shard and you have enough of them to craft the shard in the bag, but when you take them out to craft the shard. You can't craft it because the essences are separated when you take them out the bag.

suggestions
The crafting device should let you stack them together to use them both to craft the shard. (If you have enough)

or

The essences all need to be bound to account or not bound to account.

If you mouseover in the bag, it says if they are mixed with bound and unbound. Put the bounds into a seperate bag.

[zealous]

I would suggest requiring a special shard for adding stuff to items with material components, a really really expensive shard.
...
That way crafting a holy non-silver greater bane ... wouldn't be downright idiotic.

Bears repeating.

While the added changes alleviates many of the initial problems, the relative worth/rarity of material property weapons is likely somewhat unbalanced.
A holy silver of GLOB is immensely more desirable than a holy GLOB, same goes for other prefix/suffix vs. prefix material suffix combinations.


Another problem with crafting is that with the ability to make specific weapons, sub-optimal weapon types will be even more sub-optimal. You might loot/AH a sub-optimal weapon with a rare prefix and/or suffix and the effects can outweigh the weapon type. There is no incentive to ever craft a sub-optimal weapon type except for cosmetic reasons.
That is however more a problem of the original 3.5 rules and would probably best be solved by addressing the problem rather than e.g. increasing costs for khopesh.

---
Also, regarding ML of crafted items vs. looted items. It is desirable that looted items have some sort of advantage. It will in a majority, if not all cases, likely be less effort/time, on average, to craft a item as opposed to looting it.
If looted items do not have a advantage, chest loot might as well be replaced by crafting components. If chest loot is replaced by crafting components, chests might as well be replaced by component drop bags.

[pjw]

Also, regarding ML of crafted items vs. looted items. It is desirable that looted items have some sort of advantage.

This is an opinion that I disagree with.

In fact I would assert the opposite: it is desirable that crafted items have some sort of advantage (eg. that they can be made by anyone) and that they have the same ML as random loot.

It will in a majority, if not all cases, likely be less effort/time, on average, to craft a item as opposed to looting it.

There is no basis for this assertion. A lot of resources need to go into crafting, even after patch 1. By the time you can craft it, you would be better selling stuff and buying what you want on the AH. And, by the time you can craft it, you will probably need a higher level item anyway.

If looted items do not have a advantage, chest loot might as well be replaced by crafting components....

As of now, that's pretty much all they are, even without the ML change. Except for those very few clean, low ML items with good prefix AND suffix that may escape the recycler.

Pretty much the only things I won't be recycling are low level (good ML) twink gear (which I will AH), high level junk weapons (which I will vendor). The proceeds of which will go into buying lower-level clean gear from vendors to pay for my essence habit.

[geoffhanna]

just to show, I created a new character there, and disjunction his rags, had my craftsman make a couple shards, placed in Bank, then added the shards to the Rags
he actually gained a level adding the shards

I am so jazzed by this. I have a character that wears her rags all the time, I didn't even think about maybe crafting them up! Awesome idea Thanks!

This is definitely a +1 moment

[zealous]

In fact I would assert the opposite: it is desirable that crafted items have some sort of advantage (eg. that they can be made by anyone) and that they have the same ML as random loot.

But they do have a even greater advantage, you can make the right item for the right slot, the right weapon type, with the prefix/suffix combination you decide on. It's shroud vs. other raids, you might get lucky on your first but in general need to wait til 20th/40th...120th completion.

There is no basis for this assertion. A lot of resources need to go into crafting, even after patch 1.

A lot of resources?
A lot of resources and a lot of time checking the AH goes into twinking a new toon. And let's face it, even if the AH has a higher drop rate of nice stuff, the good stuff don't drop all that often.

Let me assert that once again, some things are so rare you're unlikely to pull it in a chest, you're unlikely to pull it at AH.

The initial buyin to get to a level sufficient to produce decent twinkage would be how large? How large would that cost be spread out over all your future characters?

How much would a full set of +1/+2 vicious/holy khopesh of lesser/regular/greater bane cost?
5-10 Blood stones?
5-10 goggles of insight?
etc. etc.

By the time you can craft it, you would be better selling stuff and buying what you want on the AH. And, by the time you can craft it, you will probably need a higher level item anyway.

Will you? Based on what level of equipment? Based on what class/classes?

You can craft vicious lesser bane weapons simply by sneezing at the crafting apparatus, invulnerability, spell clickies. You can craft sneak attack items, seeker trinket with a extremely minor investment. And it doesn't take all that much resources to get up to the levels sufficient to make your elemental/holy thingies.

As of now, that's pretty much all they are, even without the ML change. Except for those very few clean, low ML items with good prefix AND suffix that may escape the recycler.

Exactly, there's few keepers as it is.

Pretty much the only things I won't be recycling are low level (good ML) twink gear (which I will AH), high level junk weapons (which I will vendor). The proceeds of which will go into buying lower-level clean gear from vendors to pay for my essence habit.

See, you won't even keep chest loot as is. And the things you might keep are so rare they're not even worth mentioning.

[donblas]

I'm confused at the moment about the display of enchantment level and change to minimum level when recipes are used. The recipes/shards have a +1, +2 etc at the top right which I assume is the change to enchantment level.

It's entirely possible that I've missed it but the release notes state "Crafting recipes will now display how much the minimum character level to equip an item will increase when the recipe is applied" but I can't see it. It used to state that the minimum level would be x when applied to a blank and would increase by y when applied to an item with an enchantment but I can't find this anymore.

Could someone confirm that the +1 etc at the top right is the enchantment level (or tell me where the enchantment level is displayed if this is not the case), and where to find the change to minimum level?

Thanks and sorry for my ignorance

[Pfold]

I'm confused at the moment about the display of enchantment level and change to minimum level when recipes are used. The recipes/shards have a +1, +2 etc at the top right which I assume is the change to enchantment level.

It's entirely possible that I've missed it but the release notes state "Crafting recipes will now display how much the minimum character level to equip an item will increase when the recipe is applied" but I can't see it. It used to state that the minimum level would be x when applied to a blank and would increase by y when applied to an item with an enchantment but I can't find this anymore.

Could someone confirm that the +1 etc at the top right is the enchantment level (or tell me where the enchantment level is displayed if this is not the case), and where to find the change to minimum level?

Thanks and sorry for my ignorance

The '+x' in the upper right hand corner is the enchantment level. To calculate the minimum level for an item multilply the enchantment level by 2 and subtract 1. X*2-1= ML

The first enchantment put on an item gets its ML reduced by one. Everything else added after that adds 2 ML per 1 enchantment level.

[donblas]

Thanks very much for the quick reply - pretty simple to calculate then.

Where did you find this - or did you have to calculate by trial and error?

[pjw]

But they do have a even greater advantage, you can make the right item for the right slot...
...
You can craft sneak attack items, seeker trinket with a extremely minor investment.

No, you can't.

Have you actually tried crafting a seeker trinket?

The crafting system only allows slightly expanded lootgen slots, and for the most part you can't actually craft convenient slot-fillers.

Let me assert that once again, some things are so rare you're unlikely to pull it in a chest, you're unlikely to pull it at AH.

And you most certainly won't be able to craft it with a comparable ML (if it's a weapor armour).

How much would a full set of +1/+2 vicious/holy khopesh of lesser/regular/greater bane cost?
5-10 Blood stones?
5-10 goggles of insight?
etc. etc.

No idea; but the point here is that you won't get equivalent items through crafting due to the ML problems.

You can craft vicious lesser bane weapons simply by sneezing at the crafting apparatus, invulnerability, spell clickies.

And the latter at +3ML over lootgen. Great.

See, you won't even keep chest loot as is. And the things you might keep are so rare they're not even worth mentioning.

Yes, so we should just have matching ML since 99% of lootgen items will be vendored and as you yourself say, the chances of pulling the exact gear is miniscule.

Just reward crafters by letting them craft gear that is as good as lootgen.

[zealous]

No, you can't.

Have you actually tried crafting a seeker trinket?

The crafting system only allows slightly expanded lootgen slots, and for the most part you can't actually craft convenient slot-fillers.

Since I already have goggles and bloodstones to fill my needs, I hadn't really looked into it. Good to know there's still some edge to the named items.

And you most certainly won't be able to craft it with a comparable ML (if it's a weapor armour).

I have a veritable hoard of loot amassed through the years. Yet I sometimes find myself resorting to sub par weapons/slots, I sometimes use stat items with a unnecessary +skill, a holy greater bane instead of a vicious greater bane or even a banishing shortsword of unnecessary fluff. Crafting the equivalent stuff will result in a effective lowering of the ML.
If I would hazard a guess, I think more people would be in that situation than those who already "have everything they could ever need".

No idea; but the point here is that you won't get equivalent items through crafting due to the ML problems.

The point is that contrary to your claims, you would achieve that level of twinkage earlier/cheaper through crafting, discounting the bloodstones ofc. And that's just a few items.

And the latter at +3ML over lootgen. Great.

And the former is so rare you're unlikely to find it, and usable at a lower level than a equivalent holy pg. Not to mention you get a khopesh instead of a longsword.
Equal power, way cheaper, lower ML.

Yes, so we should just have matching ML since 99% of lootgen items will be vendored and as you yourself say, the chances of pulling the exact gear is miniscule.

So in other words, crafting would result in a effective lowering of ML for you too then?

Just reward crafters by letting them craft gear that is as good as lootgen.

The "haves" have massive resources to dump and quickly achieve a crafting level sufficiently high to gain access to the stuff so rare it practically doesn't drop in chests.

The "have somes" will fairly easily be able to upgrade their not quite optimal twink.

The "have nots" will be able to get decent twink way more easily than if they were restricted to chests and AH.

tl;dr:If you already have "all the random loot," ML of crafted stuff is a non-issue. If you don't already have "all the random loot" crafting will result in a effective lowering of ML.

[zealous]

Upon reflecting on the whole pack rat thing I just realized something absolutely wonderful!

So thing is, I have some 7-10 dedicated mules. Every new char needs his lvl2, lvl3, lvl4...lvl20 twinkage of items, clickies and weapons. Mainly weapons, can't have too many greater banes. And ofc I need to hoard stuff in case I feel like rolling some bizarre flavor build.

Once I get a char up sufficiently high, I won't need any of that storage. Simply keeping my crafter well stocked with supplies and crafting what I want when I need it would save me a lot of time sorting through junk. Get a new/TRd char a bag with a truckload of usable shards, craft and decon as needed.

Sure, would be very resource expensive but it would save a lot of tedium!

[FynWarFyn]

One of the biggest assumption I had was that racial trait will persist thru decon. Boy, I was wrong. With that out of the way, I would like to be able to either make a racial trait shard or buy a decon potion that will keep the trait in an item. As of right now, I am not even crafting that much because the ML is just higher than most loot items I found.
Wonder if the devs will make anything regarding traits and the material type like adamantium available in the future even at high lvl crafting.

As for the patch, there are some up and down, but the devs just need to keep tinkering with the crafting system and make changes to it, by listening to players it will get better and better, but expect a while for it to be that way. I remember the PnP crafting required a ton of PP in addition to the crafting pieces, but you could pretty much make anything not game breaking.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

did I win anything ?

yeah I know I'm just as greedy as the rest of the world

Since Eladrin Himself has already acknowledged you already have the Best. Item. Ever. in a larger sense you have passed beyond his ability to reward. But you'll always have Paris. (or possibly Kim, i can't keep up with you)

[pjw]

I have a veritable hoard of loot amassed through the years. Yet I sometimes find myself resorting to sub par weapons/slots
, I sometimes use stat items with a unnecessary +skill,

Firstly +Stat items are some of the easiest to obtain, and if you do not have a couple of complete sets, I'm guessing you have not been hoarding for that long.

Secondly, and most importantly, the ML on most clothing and jewelry is *correct*, making crafting useful for such items. My complaint is with weapons/armour.

Thirdly, BtA low level +2/+3 stat items are reasonably easy to obtain, making crafting low level stat items almost pointless.

a holy greater bane instead of a vicious greater bane or even a banishing shortsword of unnecessary fluff.

OK, well...have you actually looked at what is possible in crafting at the moment? you did not know that seeker could not go on trinkets, and these two are another example of things that can not be crafted. Banishing does not exist and the most sought after GB is not available.

Also, it is (or at least was, until crafting came along) reasonably to get "Banishing of Unnecessary Fluff" on the AH. I've even seen them in vendors.

The hard ones were the ML10 clean versions. Under crafting as it stands they will be ML11 at least...and I'm guessing level 76+.

The point is that contrary to your claims, you would achieve that level of twinkage earlier/cheaper through crafting, discounting the bloodstones ofc. And that's just a few items.

Absolutely not; BtA ML5 +3 Stat items are pretty easy to get. I've got a stack of +x Element of PG weapons. The problem is that these are now no longer in the AH or vendors. People recycle them.

So, new or low level players will have to settle for the +1 to +3 ML versions if (and it's a big if) they can get to level 63 in crafting in time to create a PG when they need it (around levels 2 to 4). If they give up on PG, then a simple +1 Elemental weapon will require level 23 for a 50% chance. Again, they probably wont be there at level 3.

The "haves" have massive resources to dump and quickly achieve a crafting level sufficiently high to gain access to the stuff so rare it practically doesn't drop in chests.

And pretty much they only things they will craft will be:

- odd/interesting items the system now allows: +0 of Bane; Docent of Invulnerability ML1; some nice jewelry & clothing.
- some very nice clearly good items for which the ML does not really matter (Silver Holy Banes etc)

The "have somes" will fairly easily be able to upgrade their not quite optimal twink.

The "have nots" will be able to get decent twink way more easily than if they were restricted to chests and AH.

Whereas before they could have found it superior weapons/armour the AH or vendor more easily.

Basically, crafting is still for the rich and IMO has disadvantaged new players by denuding all the vendors and upping AH prices.

Getting correct ML on items, and fixing the levels required for stand-out odd properties like PG would go a long way to making this system friendly to the less well-off.

[zealous]

Firstly +Stat items are some of the easiest to obtain, and if you do not have a couple of complete sets, I'm guessing you have not been hoarding for that long.

On and off since 06, some is split between servers and for some reason I haven't been lucky enough to get multiple complete stat/skill sets for all slots. I do have a half full set of "transmuting" greater banes though. =)

The difference in power isn't all that great and the content not hard so I generally don't bother twinking until a level where the unnecessary fluff is irrelevant.

With crafting the amount of effort is lowered so I might. For my higher level chars I would start caring since I would be able to craft stuff with specific fluff.

Thirdly, BtA low level +2/+3 stat items are reasonably easy to obtain, making crafting low level stat items almost pointless.

3min stat pots are quite sufficient at low levels, more potent and you don't need to spend time looking for it. Also, content at that level is so plentiful, xp requirements low and player capabilities so inflated compared to what the content was designed for that there's not much of a point to even bother bumping your stats.
Just bring in the F2P sorc, zerg to objective and nuke. Alternatively play in a group and it's even easier.

OK, well...have you actually looked at what is possible in crafting at the moment? you did not know that seeker could not go on trinkets, and these two are another example of things that can not be crafted. Banishing does not exist and the most sought after GB is not available.

Not in detail no and moreover I haven't really bothered to memorize stuff. Seems to be in the process of changing, beta and all.

Until crafting reaches a official cap, I will assume that those things eventually will be possible.

A combination of GLOB and GCOB will provide the same functionallity as GEOB, GEOB is just a matter of convenience, not power.

Also, it is (or at least was, until crafting came along) reasonably to get "Banishing of Unnecessary Fluff" on the AH. I've even seen them in vendors.

Yes, and with the unnecessary fluff it's of higher level than the crafted stuff would be. Crafting thus provides a effective lowering of ML. Also, while I've seen "banishing of unnecessary fluff" non-rapiers, I rarely see rapiers and when seen not at "generally affordable" prices.

The hard ones were the ML10 clean versions. Under crafting as it stands they will be ML11 at least...and I'm guessing level 76+.

And since the ML10 are hard to get, the crafted ML11 rapier would be lower and better than the lvl12+ ss/dagger.
If you already have keen smiting scimitars and banishing rapiers the potential ML of the crafted stuff will be irrelevant. If you don't you will get a power increase and/or effective lowering of ML.

Absolutely not; BtA ML5 +3 Stat items are pretty easy to get. I've got a stack of +x Element of PG weapons. The problem is that these are now no longer in the AH or vendors. People recycle them.

Element of PG is a sub par prefix/suffix combination, +x element of pg khopesh are really rare and rarely cheap.

So, new or low level players will have to settle for the +1 to +3 ML versions if (and it's a big if) they can get to level 63 in crafting in time to create a PG when they need it (around levels 2 to 4). If they give up on PG, then a simple +1 Elemental weapon will require level 23 for a 50% chance. Again, they probably wont be there at level 3.

Bane is a better suffix than PG and, attainable at a vastly lower crafting level. True chaos/true law are available. Clean lowbie good prefix good weapon good suffix were never cheap.

And pretty much they only things they will craft will be:

- odd/interesting items the system now allows: +0 of Bane; Docent of Invulnerability ML1; some nice jewelry & clothing.
- some very nice clearly good items for which the ML does not really matter (Silver Holy Banes etc)

Whereas before they could have found it superior weapons/armour the AH or vendor more easily.

That's false. If they have the optimal equipment they are "haves" and the ML is irrelevant. If they don't have optimal equipment the crafting will provide improvement. If a "have some" has one or a few in the range +1-5 holy(burst) khopesh of pg, he can fill in the blanks. If a "have not" doesn't have, he will attain it more easily through crafting.

Basically, crafting is still for the rich and IMO has disadvantaged new players by denuding all the vendors and upping AH prices.

This is likely due to the "haves" dumping to them worthless plat to gain levels quickly, it is likely a temporary problem.

The "have somes" and "have nots" will get there eventually and can make some plat for haste pots during the plat redistribution.

Getting correct ML on items, and fixing the levels required for stand-out odd properties like PG would go a long way to making this system friendly to the less well-off.

As I have outlined, crafting with a +1ML will still result in a effective lowering of ML while retaining some minor worth of random loot. You either have it and ML is irrelevant, or you don't have it and crafting provides the easiest way of getting it.

[pjw]

As I have outlined, crafting with a +1ML will still result in a effective lowering of ML while retaining some minor worth of random loot. You either have it and ML is irrelevant, or you don't have it and crafting provides the easiest way of getting it.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree about the nature of reality, both past and present.

[Talias006]

Since 9.1 went live and I recall seeing that shards were to be BtA instead of BtC, that made me happy. Made a suit of mithral chain shirt into a twilight version for a new sorc alt recently created.

And then I saw that the result is BtC. So much for that idea. Tried disjointing the item. Still has the BtC tag on it. That stung worse. Time to look for a new low plat cost shirt to craft into.

I know that the new Sorc can just craft his own stuff if given the BtA shards and the blank shirt, but it would've been much easier had the bound item crafting just made the items BtA in the first place.

That's pretty much my only beef with the system as it stands now. I reserve the right to pitch a fit later when they introduce crafting levels 76+.

[DarkPhoenix888]

I have a few requests/suggestions regarding the new crafting system, most of them have already been mentioned by other members of the community:

1) Please change the icons of prefix shards and suffix shards so it will be easier to distinguish between them.

2) Please fix the unclear relation between enhancement level and base price modifier (on crafted items and random loot alike). Enhancement level usually equals base price modifier, but on some items and effects it isn’t so. This is very confusing and it makes crafting a bit unreliable, in my opinion, as the crafter might not know in advance what effect he/she is allowed to add to an item.

3) Please fix the ML of crafted items to be the same ML of similar random loot items.

4) Please remove the crafting materials (Dust of Disjunction, Lorinda’s Ultimate Remover etc) altogether. There is no actual need for them anyway, and they only encumber the system. Every now and then you need to go and buy more of them, they occupy space in your bags/inventory, you need to take them out of the bags before crafting and put them back in afterwards. The more elegant solution, in my opinion, will be to just lose some pp every time we would otherwise use these materials. The cost should be somehow proportional to the ML of the item being deconstructed.

5) Please consider deconstructing both prefix and suffix at the same time. Crafting can be pretty tedious as it is, and getting more essences from each deconstruction can really help. Moreover, this will make items with two powerful effects more valuable than items with one powerful effect. As it stands now, deathblock of heavy fortification equals deathblock of light fortification (if all I’m after is the good essences), but I don’t think it should.

6) For me, the holy grail of weapons is “+5 [alignment burst] [metallic] [weapon] of [greater x bane]”. This is the weapon I was dreaming about ever since I ceased to be a newbie. Sadly, this kind of weapon doesn’t occur in nature, since it has a ML of 22. However, I firmly believe that this weapon should be attainable somehow. Thus I propose a new type of shard: epic potential shard. It will be crafted using epic token (among other ingredients), and while crafting regular potential shards unto items raises their maximum enhancement levels, this higher tier potential shard will simply make the item epic (with ML = 20). This in turn will give the item an effective maximum enhancement level of 15, enabling it to be upgraded with any slot-appropriate combination of +x, prefix and suffix. Obviously, this epic potential shard should be a lot harder to craft, but it should be at least possible. And as an added bonus, this may encourage more people to run epic quests!

I’d appreciate some thoughts about my requests (I realize #6 might seem too much, but it’d be so cool!).

[dusty991]

i heard a rumor that crafted items would be 1 lvl lower min lvl than the exact same item that is randomly generated,and 1 lvl higher than a race required item of the same.well, i found out today that that is not the case,a +2 enhanced wpn is min lvl 3 in stead of 2,like the ones found in chests.why? if i have to spend time lvling my crafting skill why do i get penalized for it?
and why dont the shard tell you how much they will raise the min lvl anymore?R U intentionally trying to cause of grief?