Feedback - Crafting - Update 9, Patch 1

[Crazyfruit]

Are there any specific new (or old) recipes/crafted items you guys would like our feedback on?

[knightgf]

One question id like to ask:

Were any of the minimum levels on the crafting items changed? I thought it was ridiculous that a +4 enhancement bonus on live raised the minimum level to 9(Or 10 if there's other things on it), especially since thats 1-2 levels higher than the +5 enhancement bonus on junk items.

[TheRealest]

Newbie question:

with this patch, will the crafted items be BtA or are they still BtC?

Thanks in advance.

I think crafted items are going to be bound but the shards will not.

[kyleann]

I think crafted items are going to be bound but the shards will not.

From simslim's pic in this same thread, yes shards are BtA but when crafted onto a blank the crafted item becomes BtC.

Basically, craft shards with your crafting character, send them to the character you want the item on and then have them combine the shards with the keyed items.

[Pfold]

Level Cap of 75, not too exciting for me as I would like to craft a +6 CON item so I am still waiting but it looks like the cap should hit 100 soon.

This.

I'm not sure why the overall cap wasn't presented to us on live to begin with. It is in beta form afterall. I really can't see the harm if it was.

My feeling is that a lot of interest in crafting will be lost if folks have to wait months after the update itself to see the true benefits of crafting. Personally I feel as though this is just an attempt to string people along.

Edit: After thinking about it for a bit I really do believe this whole thing should have been put off until u11. I would have much preferred seeing a polished & complete product than what we have. I understand that some things take a great deal of time and effort to complete (coding that is) but why not wait, put the time it requires into it and release something that isn't halfbaked?

[zipperhead]

This.

I'm not sure why the overall cap wasn't presented to us on live to begin with. It is in beta form afterall. I really can't see the harm if it was.

My feeling is that a lot of interest in crafting will be lost if folks have to wait months after the update itself to see the true benefits of crafting. Personally I feel as though this is just an attempt to string people along.

Edit: After thinking about it for a bit I really do believe this whole thing should have been put off until u11. I would have much preferred seeing a polished & complete product than what we have. I understand that some things take a great deal of time and effort to complete (coding that is) but why not wait, put the time it requires into it and release something that isn't halfbaked?

I really dont think any of this is stringing people along. If people cant see the long term possibilities we're being given access to, then it sucks to be them. As far as putting it off until a more polished version is available, I don't think its possible to do without having it on live and providing real data. I for one am impressed how quickly the devs have responded to our feedback and made adjustments. Exactly how a beta should be!

[Beldain]

Sneaksy... doubled TP cost of the crafting components... will slow some folks down, still have lots to break down here though... upper levels definitely go faster now, not sure if its too fast yet though... testing more in a bit

[pjw]

First let me say that this is a massive improvement; reduced costs, XP for deconstruction, improved returns AND ML-based crafting costs. They are all excellent. Oh, and faster machines! Yay!

Now, on to what I think does not work.

By my calculations, the following resources are needed to lelel in each school to 10,20,30,40,50,60 and 70:

Arcane

00-10.... 76 / 2
11-20.... 108 / 32
21-30.... 522 / 139
31-40.... 1139 / 264
41-50.... 3386 / 658
51-60.... 7484 / 793
61-70....12772 / 1435

Total: 25487 / 3323


Elemental

00-10.... 83 / 2
11-20.... 184 / 52
21-30.... 939 / 120
31-40.... 1544 / 351
41-50.... 4731 / 699
51-60.... 5176 / 775
61-70.... 8931 / 1095

Total: 21589 / 3092


Divine

00-10.... 73 / 2
11-20.... 185 / 52
21-30.... 582 / 103
31-40.... 2058 / 386
41-50.... 6477 / 887
51-60.... 9292 / 1027
61-70.... 9649 / 1126

Total: 28316 / 3583


What do I think is relevant here?


1. There is a steep cost increase in the early levels: when you take into account Greater Essences, getting from 10 to 20 is considerably more expensive than 1-10. Ditto 20-30 Vs 10-20.

2. For Arcane, 60-70 is nearly double 50-60, and 50-60 is nearly triple 40-50.

3. For Divine the costs from 60-70 are very similar to the costs from 50-60 (but arge huge in the 50-60 range).

4. For Elemental the costs from 60-70 are 60% more than the costs from 50-60.

5. Overall costs to get to 70 are pretty similar, averaging at about 25k to get to level 70.

What do conclude from this?

We still have varying amounts of exponential resource growth at low levels for all schools, and thoughout for Arcane and Elemental. At lower levels it is more extreme, but it higher levels it still exists. This is probably to allow for an easy start for new crafters.

Exponential resource growth is always very bad if allowed to continue into higher levels. This has been partially addressed by the cost reduction, but not completely.

What would I do to fix it?

(i) The Arcane resource use should become linear; many of the higher level recipes should have their costs reduced. Or rebalanced wrt other recipes.

The progression (in lessers) is: 4/12/32/80/192/224. This is not linear, and it is not really exponential either (the 224 throws the latter off).

Because an easy start is always good, I'd suggest keeping 4/12/32, but making the next steps 64/96/128 (ie. add 32 each time rather than multiplying by 2.5-ish). Or add 48 each time: 80/128/176. Do something linear, so when we get to level 90 recipes, it is not insane again.

(ii) Part of the reason the Arcane and Divine schools are so expensive to train is the relative paucity of recipes at the higher level. A simple solution here might be to reduce the XP reduction for recipes below your current level. Currently it is -10% per level below. I'd suggest -5% per level, allowing crafting 19 levels lower might help. Or perhaps 100% XP for up to 10 levels below then -10% per level for the next 10.


Have I tested my ideas?

No. It takes ages to run my simulations. I will if I am asked to do so by Turbine, but I suspect they have way better means of predicting the crafting costs than I.

[pjw]

I'm not sure why the overall cap wasn't presented to us on live to begin with. It is in beta form afterall. I really can't see the harm if it was.

As it is some players have spent sufficient resources levelling to 50 on live as would be needed to level to 70 in the Lamannia version (we're talking millions of plat according to one post).

If they had had access to L70, it would have been 10s of millions and the resulting complaints when the costs were inevitably nerfed may have caused Turbine considerable grief. I think they did the right thing; it was better that something went into the update and that the stuff that was most likely to have major changes (higher level recipes) were left out.

[Pfold]

I really dont think any of this is stringing people along. If people cant see the long term possibilities we're being given access to, then it sucks to be them.
So I suppose you know exaclty what the 'zone only' crafting materials are for?


As far as putting it off until a more polished version is available, I don't think its possible to do without having it on live and providing real data.
Isn't that what Lammania is for? If not, then in't that what Mournlands is for? If those do not provide 'real data' then what good are they?

I for one am impressed how quickly the devs have responded to our feedback and made adjustments. Exactly how a beta should be!

That's great, you feel that having an open beta on live servers is acceptable. I disagree.

In red

[dingal]

okay a lil more awake now.
went back in, one thing I forgot to mention on the first post, when you arrow over shard, it no longer tells you the ML increase , That was handy for me to make sure don't over craft (craft something I can not use yet). That may just be a "Opps, I forgot to place back in there" from the Devs, would hate it if that was intentional

I see when you craft the “Shards of Potential” you have to make each level increase to reach the desired level you'll need. In my case I would need a +8 (but I went ahead and took it to +10, to see if that stays after a deconstruct).
You can not just craft a +10 Shards of Potential and add it to a +5, you have to craft a +6, then a +7, and then a +8 . . . . till you have the +10, then you have to added each, starting with the +6 till you reach +10 (if that was as far you was going)
was that really necessary ?
you already need to level up your Schools to craft the higher +# “Shards of Potential”, why do we need to add each one. For someone starting low level and into crafting this may be a good thing, It will be a too repetitive once you have higher levels of crafting, and re-crafting your items with better Suffix and Prefix, Unless I missed something and one can now just upgrade to the a better prefix/suffix (of the same) without 1st deconstructing
if the latter is the case then all's CL

Oh must not be awake yet forget this, and yeah because the no longer showing the ML increase it's one level too high

ML17 for that? Seriously? If I rated the crafting system based on the above screenshot I'd give it an F-minus.

[Pfold]

As it is some players have spent sufficient resources levelling to 50 on live as would be needed to level to 70 in the Lamannia version (we're talking millions of plat according to one post).

If they had had access to L70, it would have been 10s of millions and the resulting complaints when the costs were inevitably nerfed may have caused Turbine considerable grief. I think they did the right thing; it was better that something went into the update and that the stuff that was most likely to have major changes (higher level recipes) were left out.

You're going to have people complain either way about the costs.

I think the Devs did a fantastic job between the initial offering on Lamma and what is currently on live (costs). My issue is that they presented something to us not in its entirety. Basicly here how it is currently slated to go down:

U9 released-crafting to level 50
9.1 (3-4 weeks later)- adjustments to levels 1-50 made, 51-75 now available
9.x(weeks after that)- adjustments to level 1-75 are made, 76-100 now available
9.x+1(still weeks after that)- adjustments made to all the levels

So, my question still remains... Why couldn;t they have released 1-100 from the rip? I am 99.99% confident that they would have more data at this point about the system if they had done so. Sure folks will complain about costs, time etc. I get that. What I am not understanding is definitively limiting the data coming in from the live 'beta' by not having it all available.

[pjw]

1. Superior Erosion IV Club Should not be ML 7. It should be ML 4.

2. +1 Flaming Club should not be ML3, it should be ML2. In fact it should have no ML if it is bound. But ML2 would be a good start.

The wrong ML on items is a very serious problem; as was discussed in the previous release (short version here), it makes the crafting system considerably less useful. Random loot is better.

Edit: For those unaware of the ramdom loot ML calculation, it is:

SumOf(Base Price Modifiers for all properties) * 2 - 2, for weapons and armour
SumOf(Base Price Modifiers for all properties) * 2 - 1, for everything else

[steelblueskies]

the enhancement shards are for actually making items, to be a resource sink once the leveling is done. at present leveling crafting is seen by some as too easy, because that is exactly what their goal is: leveling crafting.

if the goal was to make and use much of what was made, the resources put into those items wouldn't be getting recycled in the same way.

as for the resource creep, yes it's bad. that's actually why the 1-5 exp for each deconstruction, be it a shard or an item is actually a huge boon. to actually decon enough items to level crafting you would have broken down well over 5000 pieces. thats granting somewhere between 5000 and 25000 crafting experience right there. add in breaking down shards that have been made along the way in the same fashion and you reduce base items broken and trade them for shards smashed. hard choice to either recycle shards early on, or save them to more easily level towards the cap by simply sundering them all en mass. most likely is a sundering as you go approach, in practice.

the real disparity i am seeing on live comes from arcane and elemental modifiers being far more common compared to divine, especially of a higher level. more noticeably the disparity between random loot offering any chance at certain mat types.

law orbs, mind shards, evil essence have all been lagging behind the others for all those i have spoken to about it in guild and out. body essence is abundant. water essence people seem to be trying to dump due to its lack of uses for much of the leveling process.

worse, people are fighting to level it in the hopes it MAY prove useful, or assigning someone in their guild to level it using the guilds collective resources, in the hopes the unbound will be coming and useful.

having multiple people groan or swear aloud hearing about reduced costs, or even being able to break down shards without the need to buy an arsenal of no enchantment clubs and robes is pretty bad. you really don't want to hear some responses to the idea of making it more time and resource intensive. i'd get banned just for printing some of the comments i've heard to the forum.

now if we can just convince them to remove the crafting deconstruction/sundering delay entirely, then simply add the appropriate cost for material directly into the disjunction/liquid knife/remover/dissolver step so i don't have to keep legging it to the other npc, hunting the bag that collected the items, etc..

maybe even get em to add a repetition counter field, so one doesn't have to click and wait hundreds of times..
you really want to sunder 100 essences into lessers... ONE.. AT.. A .. TIME.. WITH.. A .. DELAY??? even the stone of change khyber and siberys shard recipes have this beat so long as you pick a round number to crunch to a better type.

[pjw]

The good:

- Can deconstruct shards
- Get XP for deconstruction equal to the property level

The bad:

Deconstruction returns seem largely unchanged. Some high ML items give more than I remember, but for the most part it is still painfully low.

Deconstructing 49 items of varying quality yielded 1008 lessers and 50 greaters. It also netted enough XP to put that character up a few levels (they started with a clean slate and ended somewhere from 3 to 6 in each).

In the higher level recipes, the XP amounts to less than a 10% XP bonus and the returned materials are a similarly small fraction of those used.

It still seems completely unreasonable that these two items would return the same basic quantities of ingredients:

- Strength +2 Bracers of Heal +15, ML19 -> returned 35/4
- Swim +10 Ring, ML ? -> returned 30/4

I do notice a subtle variation in numbers, with a tendency for higher ML items to return more, but it would be more cost-effective to sell the ML19 item and buy a bunch of cheaper items.

What would I do?:

1. Allow prefix, suffix and enhancement to be harvested from a single item.
2. Remove any bonus for ML that may currently be in place
3. Base the returns on a percentage of the essences needed to craft the property, not just the property level.

[Will_Ferrer]

Ive been doing just a little testing and Ive noticed that there are some of the same bugs in handwraps that exist in the live crafting. I'd also like to mention that some of them are fixed. Thanks guys...

PS Ive reported what Ive tested so far but in case anyone is wondering which are issues, so far Ive looked into:

Stench (fixed)
Holy DR/good bypass (not fixed)
Vampirism (not fixed)
Vicious xtra damage at no cost (not fixed)
Stunning cannot be placed (not fixed) handwraps don't count as blunt, They, themselves dont have a damage type, technically the wielders fists are blunt not the wraps.

[simsiim]

ML17 for that? Seriously? If I rated the crafting system based on the above screenshot I'd give it an F-minus.

oh yeah I forgot about that part, it was ,I thought to been a ML:14

[Aganthor]

From simslim's pic in this same thread, yes shards are BtA but when crafted onto a blank the crafted item becomes BtC.

Basically, craft shards with your crafting character, send them to the character you want the item on and then have them combine the shards with the keyed items.

But wouldn't you need some crafting XP on your toon that wants to craft the item???

[voodoogroves]

oh yeah I forgot about that part, it was ,I thought to been a ML:14

Yeah the ML once you get above a certain level seem pretty ... off.

[simsiim]

But wouldn't you need some crafting XP on your toon that wants to craft the item???

well you do need one of your characters to craft shards, the rest can place the shard in the item. Of course that's saying you have a Shared bank
but you do not need crafting exp to combine into item, you just need school(s)crafting level 1, and we all start with lvl 1