Stealth - Guerilla Warfare Theory 101

[Ghoste]

OMG - Ghoste posted in my thread ^^
Big fan mate
TY for the info

Thank you for the thread.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Blindsense, or blindsight, works like true seeing as well as ignores whether or not target is hiding. But it only works in the creatures visual arc. So passing move silent checks is possible, and stay out of line of sight or visual arc to remain undetected.

Lifesense will detect you no matter what. It shouldn't work that way for pale masters, but it does.

Tremor sense will locate you if you so much as even jump. But those special abilities I listed bypass it.

So yes, they do seem to be coded as distinct abilities.

All monsters seem to have an additional ability: pet sense. Summon a pet and have it follow you (you are invisible). Stop as soon as a group of monsters agros on your pet, and watch the pet die. Kill the monsters. Try the same test with no pet and notice the distance from which they agro on you. They agro on the pets from a lot further away, through walls, doors, and invisibility.

Thx.

BTW. Decided to test a little of what you said.

Took my Sorc into the Orchard. Went Invis. Entered Sneak Mode. And Wind Danced all the way to the entrance of Ghosts of Pardition....including going into the explorer cememtary nearby (Slaughter Fields?) And never did spawn any of the Dread Wraiths!

I had previously tried to sneak there with very stealth toons and always had been detected by the wraiths. (Life Sense?)

Seems movement has something to do with it and like you said, Wind Dance does not seem to count as actual movement.

I then tried to Wind Dance in the Sub T near some Living Spells. Got kiled right away... lol. Guess for them you just have to be near them and they know you are there.

Oh well...learned a new trick.... thx.

[Ghoste]

I want to test with the living spells and oozes some more, myself. My only test so far in there was started by just jumping straight down. I'm not positive about what I saw, but it seemed like of the two I landed near to, the closer didn't notice me at first, but the further did. I tried to fall completely straight down without and lateral movement, and I think I did, but I'm not sure if the falling itself was a factor or not.

Your test in the orchard makes me want to go into a quest with a vampire to test the lifesense thing. Maybe it is actually coded the same as tremor sense. The reason I have been thinking otherwise is that falling straight down in Cursed Crypt while in sneak and invis triggers vamp agro. But it may be the falling that is causing that.

Hmmm...I have some more testing to do.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I want to test with the living spells and oozes some more, myself. My only test so far in there was started by just jumping straight down. I'm not positive about what I saw, but it seemed like of the two I landed near to, the closer didn't notice me at first, but the further did. I tried to fall completely straight down without and lateral movement, and I think I did, but I'm not sure if the falling itself was a factor or not.

Your test in the orchard makes me want to go into a quest with a vampire to test the lifesense thing. Maybe it is actually coded the same as tremor sense. The reason I have been thinking otherwise is that falling straight down in Cursed Crypt while in sneak and invis triggers vamp agro. But it may be the falling that is causing that.

Hmmm...I have some more testing to do.

I tried to do some tests in Garrison's just now with grey oozes and Spiders. But my Sor lacks stealth gear, and I was depending on Invi.....so I'm not sure if that is why they saw me.... gona try on my Monk, but I think I will run out of Ki before I can be sure.....
Don't think I have a good char to acccurately test these out...

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Tried with some spiders in Red Fang on my Monk.

Could get near the spider without being detected. But when I got in their viewing range they saw me.

Guess there is two things going on there. I think they can "See" in front of them selves...reguardless of Hide/Invis. But can also "hear" if you move normally (stealthed or not)

But like you said, abilities like Abundant Step do not count as moving for detection purposes.

Interesting...not sure how to use this knowlege yet, but it's nice to know.

[Ghoste]

Vampire Test: Church and the Cult, could get close enough to sneak hump the vampire, as long as I stayed behind or to the side of his view. Once I got within his visual arc, seems he has see invis. Have not tested this with a character with high hide skill, just a sorc air savant who never even went into hide.

Living Spell Test: went into subterrane and jumped down, then ran past the oozes to make them rubber band back. Then headed back to first group with invis on. Seems they can't see me unless I go in front of them. The challenge is figuring out which way their "front" is.

Spider Test: Went to Vale of Twilight for Let Sleeping Dust Lie Saw the same thing you noticed. I could zip around behind their backs all I wanted, but as soon as I went in front of them (not close like bumping them, far enough to avoid that) they saw me.

So it would seem that vamps and spiders also have at least see invis in addition to their tremor/life sense. With oozes and living spells, hard to tell since I can't tell which way they're facing, lol. But so far my tests seem to show they can't see me. ***EDIT***Ok, tested displacement against spiders, and it is totally useless. So that confirms that spiders have not merely see invis, but blindsight, which explains why you can't sneak in front of them.

Ooze Test: confirmed that oozes also ignore displacement = blindsight. Makes sense, since they have no eyes, I suppose...

Confirmed with monk that hide skill makes no difference. Incorporeability still works though.

BTW, let this stand as further confirmation that blur and displacement are useless when cast in on the hounds fighting Xyzzy. I still hear pug leaders barking for casters to buff the dogs with blur and displacement. I guess the big frickin bandages over her eyes isn't a big enough hint for some people...

[JollySwagMan]

Wow, some great info here! I'm gonna try that wand trick

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Wow, some great info here! I'm gonna try that wand trick

Glad you posted, cause I had missed Ghoste's last reply.

Thx for the info.

[Stillwaters]

New Feature in U11 - Arty pets can be used to open levers/doors, draw aggro. and you can retrieve their stone and rinse repeat 1 time per shrine.

And if you pay 2 AP you dont have any loss of HP/SP when it dies.

Even a level 1 arty pet can do this, so it may be worth splashing 1 arty to have a pet.

[JasonJi72]

I am a big fan of using stealth. It makes the game much more interesting, and I usually try for the non-aggression bonus when I solo with a stealthy character.

Some things I have noticed:

You can pull levers and open doors without being detected if you time re-activating stealth mode properly.

Celestial dogs are great for distracting an entire room, and getting the bad guys to move away from the door you need to open. They also tend to die quickly, and do not get a kill at mid to high levels. I always carry a stack of Summoning I scrolls on my stealth characters for that reason. Nice idea on flaming spheres. I may have to try that.

Bards are very good at using stealth. Fascinate is awesome for getting past a group, especially when you have to kill their boss for quest completions. Even a couple levels of bard can give you 2 or 3 fascinates and allow you to maximise perform. One bard level will give you two songs, perform, UMD, stealth, and wand use.

It is easy to draw only half the room by shooting somebody and retreating. I have found it to be very effective, but hard to get pugs to use this tactic in Gweylan's Stand. For this reason, I usually just solo that quest even on elite.

One thing I think might be worth testing is a wand of magic missile. If you use MM on a target that is completely blocked, then go into stealth mode and retreat, will he be able to find you? Bless might also be worth some more testing, since the effected ones should not tell their buddies where you are since they did not take damage.

Perhaps it is time for us ninja types to post some 'stealthy ninja' LFM's? Are you guys game for that?

"I see you... do you see me?"

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I am a big fan of using stealth. It makes the game much more interesting, and I usually try for the non-aggression bonus when I solo with a stealthy character.

Some things I have noticed:

You can pull levers and open doors without being detected if you time re-activating stealth mode properly. If you are not an Angel of Vengence.

Celestial dogs are great for distracting an entire room, and getting the bad guys to move away from the door you need to open. They also tend to die quickly, and do not get a kill at mid to high levels. I always carry a stack of Summoning I scrolls on my stealth characters for that reason. Nice idea on flaming spheres. I may have to try that.

Bards are very good at using stealth. Fascinate is awesome for getting past a group, especially when you have to kill their boss for quest completions. Even a couple levels of bard can give you 2 or 3 fascinates and allow you to maximise perform. One bard level will give you two songs, perform, UMD, stealth, and wand use.

It is easy to draw only half the room by shooting somebody and retreating. I have found it to be very effective, but hard to get pugs to use this tactic in Gweylan's Stand. For this reason, I usually just solo that quest even on elite.

One thing I think might be worth testing is a wand of magic missile. If you use MM on a target that is completely blocked, then go into stealth mode and retreat, will he be able to find you? Bless might also be worth some more testing, since the effected ones should not tell their buddies where you are since they did not take damage.

Perhaps it is time for us ninja types to post some 'stealthy ninja' LFM's? Are you guys game for that?

"I see you... do you see me?"

Damaging a monster gives him onmiscient knowledge of your exact location, and little can deter him from following you halfway across a dungeon and continuing to try to kill you.

It also alows him to tell his nearby friends of your location at the moment you damage him.

And we will tell monster he passes that he is after "someone" but all they will do is follow him a short distance, very slowly, to see if they can figure out what is upsetting him.

In short.... no MMs and hiding to get rid of agro.

Although going Invis or into sneak mode after agro can (sometimes) cause them to go into their "attack the air sonar mode".... and if you keep moving they may never get their mits on you.

There are more effective ways to pull single or smal monster numbers than damaging them.

Bluff being the easiest.
Non-damaging spell will agro only the single target. (usually) Although you have to be careful with this one, as his nearby friends may follow him long enough to "see" you for themselves.

I actually find simply standing up and inching forward until you see a reaction from one or a few to be very effective. (then retreat)
(note to self: bind /wave to a hot key for dramatic effect.)



I would gladly join a stealth group.


But I have found many ways to use stealth in uncooperative PUGs. Although honestly, most of the "zerge stealth" tactics I use do not actually require any investment in stealth skills to pull off.

Faster Sneaking IV and 30% Striders (or Haste pots) can allow Rogues to use some more advanced "zerge stealth" tactics that can make use of high stealth skills though.

For most Invisibility works just fine. With maybe a quick drop to sneak mode, and/or making use of sight-blocking terrain.
(and using agro getting distractions, like pets, charms.......or your fellow party members )

[Stillwaters]

UPDATED main post to include new artificer puppies!

[Tobril]

Kukan-Do can be used to single pull monsters. Once they recover from being stunned they will come after you.

It has incredible range and works through "fuzzy" corners.

[JollySwagMan]

Just revisiting and bumping this thread, some extra +1s all around

[Faent]

AWESOME work. +1.

[Mindos]

Edit: Accident bump-sorry