Guild Booting and Good Terms

[Ghoste]

***EDIT*** I stand corrected on some misconceptions I had. ***EDIT***

So when you leave a guild, you can choose to take your renown with you (part on bad terms) or leave it with the guild (good terms). So why is booting someone treated like good terms?

Main reason I ask is that I anticipate this being a big issue when the great purges begin happening.

"The Great Purges"? you ask. Well what do you think is going to happen when all these guilds that were too cool for you but suddenly started recruiting everyone and their grandma will do when they hit guild level 100? You think they're seriously going to keep you and all the pawns they used to get them there when all you'll be doing for them at that point is increasing their daily decay?

Just pointing it out to the devs now so it doesn't become a huge deal down the road. Gonna be a lot of forum drama if you don't head this one off, Turbine. Make guild booting automatically equal parting on bad terms so that if you boot half your guild at level 100, you go back down to level 50.

[protokon]

On top of this problem ghoste, renown decay is seriously flawed long-term.

As brought up several times, currently the guild's renown total decays, but not an individual's. This mean that theoretically a member can eventually bypass the guild's total renown, dropping them back to level 1 if the player's toons were removed from the guild (whether he quit and moved on or if he was booted by an officer).

[haku-ba]

On top of this problem ghoste, renown decay is seriously flawed long-term.

As brought up several times, currently the guild's renown total decays, but not an individual's. This mean that theoretically a member can eventually bypass the guild's total renown, dropping them back to level 1 if the player's toons were removed from the guild (whether he quit and moved on or if he was booted by an officer).

Now that is an interesting point I don't think the devs envisioned!

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

Our guild regularly goes through a "Great Purge" of dead weight accounts. If they haven't logged in for over a month, they are removed. I think it being considered a "good term" release is at least partially based on this practise. I can see the problem with it being this way, and I'm sure it will be taken advantage of... but in all seriousness, would you want to be a part of a guild that arbitrarily terminates members without reason? I wouldn't

[Ghoste]

Our guild regularly goes through a "Great Purge" of dead weight accounts. If they haven't logged in for over a month, they are removed. I think it being considered a "good term" release is at least partially based on this practise. I can see the problem with it being this way, and I'm sure it will be taken advantage of... but in all seriousness, would you want to be a part of a guild that arbitrarily terminates members without reason? I wouldn't

Seeing the way some guilds that were very closed on our server suddenly threw open their doors with the guild renown system starting tells me this is going to be quite common unless the devs address the issue competently and sooner rather than later.

[Ungood]

Seeing the way some guilds that were very closed on our server suddenly threw open their doors with the guild renown system starting tells me this is going to be quite common unless the devs address the issue competently and sooner rather than later.

I have been a stanch supporter of removing guild renown decay because I feel it does more harm then good. I like the system, I like the idea of rewards and guild levels, I like the idea of air ships. but I do not think I can ever get past the dislike of taking things from me, is akin to decaying EXP, which I am sure would not be well received.

However, this was discussed many times in the past and also involving issues with members that were very active then stopped playing and how much the guild might loose to kick them as opposed to just letting them sit inactive.

Which can become an issue, If you have a highly active member, that say, netted a large part of your guild renown, and then they go inactive, you stand to loose 25% of what they earned, which may be at the time far more then you want to loose. However, if you then say it is a 30 day policy then Kick, are you willing to loose lets say, ten times more renown to kick them they you would to just let them go inactive, for the sake of this rule when it involves a high earner? Or is it more akin to be a part of how low earners who barely exceed what they cost to have in the guild to start with are to face their position within the ranks of the guild hierarchy?

So a Guild leader is faced with this question and no idea exactly who has earned what, so we are semi-blind in that avenue while we decided what is better for the guild overall.

We need to ask questions like, is better to cut them as soon as they show signs of lessen activity or as soon as they become a perceived burden as a message to the other members, and are there times to show favoritism. When are the times to let people know how unstable their worm pile really is?

I suppose that question lies not in how much anyone has earned in respect to renown or in the practice of purging the guild numbers, but in what the guild leader wants and expects the guild to aspire to and how willing the members of the guild are to support that vision.

[Eladiun]

I have been a stanch supporter of removing guild renown decay.

Some level of decay is good.... I wouldn't want a system where you level up to 100 and then boom it's over you are 100 forever but the current systems penalties are too harsh.

[Vanshilar]

Actually when you are expelled it is considered on bad terms.

When you voluntarily leave a guild, if you leave on bad terms then the guild will lose 25% of the total renown your character (who's leaving the guild) had gained. If you leave on good terms then the guild will lose 10% instead. When expelling, the guild will lose 25%. Haven't checked recently but this was the case when I tested it way back when.

On deletion though, no guild renown is lost. If you delete your character from the character selection screen without leaving your guild first, the guild does not lose renown. I think this is helpful for permadeath guilds. Of course, in not causing renown loss, the character is making the "ultimate sacrifice" and not able to play again.

Your character's total gain not decaying is not the only remaining problem with guild renown. There's also the issue of inactives; if you boot an account that's inactive, they will then be considered a recent departure and count against your modified account for the next 15 days, whereas they were previously an inactive account and so didn't count against you. Also, booting an inactive counts as expelling on bad terms (i.e. 25%), which isn't necessarily the case. Taking some of the guild's renown with you when you leave or are expelled is a measure to give members some protection against arbitrary expels; basically, the officer or leader should think twice about how much renown they stand to lose. However, once someone is inactive, I think it's hard to justify giving that same sort of protection. Removing it entirely would reanimate revolving door guilds again though, so having individual renown decay may serve as the better option.

[WielderofGigantus]

So why is booting someone treated like good terms?

It's not treated as good terms. I recently watched as several people were booted from my guild and observed that the guild renown went down with each booting.

Certainly looked like they were taking their renown with them when they got booted.

[Gkar]

So when you leave a guild, you can choose to take your renown with you (part on bad terms) or leave it with the guild (good terms). So why is booting someone treated like good terms?

It's not. We recently had to split our guild in two for decay reasons and we did extensive testing. You lose 25% on a boot or a bad term departure, and 10 or 15% (I forget which) of a good terms resignation.

[Sillk]

My guild had come to the point where we had to boot inactive accounts, and people who have 1 character in the guild just wanting to keep in touch... based on the renown system.

We'd rather just keep them, in case they decide to come back, or get more opportunity to play... but the current system hurts people we'd like to keep and just aren't as active as they had been.

We've tried to keep their accounts active on the Guild Web Site and left them a message that they're welcome back, and why we we've come to the decision to boot them as our level has become stagnant with our level of decay.

Tough to have to boot people you like because of the current system.

[Ungood]

Tough to have to boot people you like because of the current system.

I fully agree, and, it is just me, but I feel that a system that would inspire that behavior or force upon someone to have to make that choice, is a flawed system.

Again, this is just my opinion and feelings on the matter.

[Sillk]

I think decay in general for Small, Medium & Large guilds (and maybe Huge guilds). 1000 for small, 5,000 for Medium, 10,000 Large, 20,000 for Huge.

No idea if those numbers make sense, but just make it a static number.

[dusty991]

if an account is inactive it causes guild decay,BUT,if u expell that toon u lose 25% of the renoun they earned AND your guild is still subject to the decay cuased by them for the next 14 days?...why do inactive accounts cause decay in the first place,r they really stupid enough to believe that it will discourage ppl from quitting the game or taking a break.All it does it hurt those of us who do play....U cant recruit like crazy or you'll soon have lots of inactive accounts,but if you dont u wont earn enough renoun to counter the decay.I like my guild,its currently got 54 active accounts,but we lose more renoun in a week than we gain due to removal of inactives and lingering decay,so im going to have have to leave this guild for a much larger one....these devs should run for congress,they'd fit right in.

[SardaofChaos]

Why is everyone booting inactive accounts? They don't affect renown at all if they're classified by the system as inactive, you can check it right on your guild screen. Hover over your guild size.


However, I do think that if the system has classified an account as inactive, booting them should not count as leaving on bad terms, and also should not count as a recent departure.

[BOgre]

Deleting from the character select screen doesn't cause the guild to loose renown, provided that character isn't the only one on that account in the guild. Also, whether on good or bad terms, you don't take renown with you.

From DDOWiki:

Guild renown loss from leaving characters
Guilds may also lose renown when a character leaves the guild. Note that this renown is just gone, they cannot add it onto another guild.

If a character leaves on amicable terms (by selecting that option when they voluntarily drop from the guild), 10% of the renown that character gained while a member of the guild is lost.
If a character leaves on bad terms (by selecting that option when they voluntarily drop from the guild), 25% of the renown that character gained while a member of the guild is lost.
If a character is expelled by an officer of the guild (regardless of if the account is inactive or not), 25% of the renown that character gained while a member of the guild is lost.
If a character is deleted from the Character Select screen while a member of a guild, no renown is lost.
If all characters from an account leave the guild, the Modified Guild Size is increased by 1 for the next 2 weeks. This is the "Recent Departures" portion of the Modified Guild Size. This increases the guild's daily renown decay for 14 days.
So, if a player needs to re-roll a character, they should:

Have at least one other character in the guild, so they won't add to the Recent Departures. If they have no other character in guild currently, bring one in as a placeholder.
Delete the character from the Character Select screen without removing it from the guild.
Recreate the character and get it re-invited to the guild.
Remove the placeholder character from the guild if desired. If the placeholder didn't earn any renown while in the guild, none will be lost when it leaves. If it did earn some renown, leave on amicable terms to minimize the loss.

[mystafyi]

I think renown should have always been character based, not guild....

in any event, characters that leave on BAD terms should remove 100% of their renown gained.

[BOgre]

definitely not. i quest with a person for months, gaining 1000's of renown. he becomes a jerk, or whatever, and I decide to boot him, I loose the renown from the months of questing he's done? after using our resources, getting plat, gear, buffs, advice? Nuh uh. bad idea.

[dusty991]

heres a good way to fix this major problem that never should have existed to begin with...first,let us set the guild to automatically boot toons that r 1 month inactive without any renoun loss or decay.imo guild decay is stupid,and just plain wrong.if you didnt want our guild to reach 100 then why didnt you just leave the guild renoun idea on the drawing board.how would u devs like it if you earned a promotion and then a month later is was taken away because you didnt use it enough?oh,but you can sue huh?and you wonder why ppl keep quitting the game...

[NostraVar]

Inactive accounts do not cause decay.