please remove harassing posts from PVP forums

[fluffybunnywilson]

And since PvP can be altered without altering PvE

If only that were really true. But then, if wishes were horses and all that...

[SilkofDrasnia]

Trolling more than just disagreeing with someone.


Unfortunately, just disagreeing with someone who wants a change in PvP is often enough to generate claims of trolling.

i can agree with that now can you also agree that telling someone that doesnt want pvp in this game or changes to it that you dont agree with em can cause trolling aswell.

also sometimes these threads degenerate via trolling in that someone goes way offtopic to try and bait "emotional" responses (whether they are good emotions or not is besides the point)

these are harder to see because mostly they are not called out or viewed in a negative fashion and the blame is shifted elsewhere

[protokon]

pvp can stay for people that like it as long as they don't change how PVE is played just to balance pvp once they start doing that the gloves are off.

me, along with anyone else who participates in pvp, agree with you 100%.

[fluffybunnywilson]

i can agree with that now can you also agree that telling someone that doesnt want pvp in this game or changes to it that you dont agree with em can cause trolling aswell.

No. You can't "cause" trolling with a post. You can intentionally troll with a post and some posts can make a person feel like they have been trolled even when they weren't, but simply stating that someone doesn't like a particular change to PvP or even that they want PvP removed from DDO entirely usually isn't a troll. It's usually a reaction to a perceived attack on what the person perceives as the core values of D&D. You may believe that it is an overreaction, but it's usually not a troll.

What I do perceive as trolling are the frequent comments that imply or outright state that anyone who disagrees with a proposed change to PvP either doesn't understand PvP or is somehow metally deficient and unworthy to state their opinions in that blessed thread.

[protokon]

everyone is entitled to their opinion in this world. just because u stamp a PVP title on a thread doesn't mean nobody is allowed to express their negative feelings toward it. granted, one doesn't need to beat a dead horse over it, but still, we are allowed to say whether or not we like the idea or not. if turbine were to institute the rule of "if u dont agree, dont post" idea then they would only be hearing ONE side of the coin and then base decisions on only one side of the argument. i hope i dont need to explain why this is a bad idea.

i do agree with u however that the posts regarding there needs to be some respect on both sides when it comes to a forum discussion. this is all just my opinion of course. im neither for or against pvp.

I agree 100% that it is not a one-sided attack. but it is very easy and clear to see why threads trying to discuss a valid point degenerate into e-peen contests in which people start to challenge one another's validity rather than debate pros/cons of the actual topic.

if someone comments "get rid of this ability for this reason" and another user posts "this is why pvp should die" or "stop whining and deal with it", nothing positive has been contributed.

for the rest of you guys, please don't argue about semantics of what trolling is/isn't. that wasn't my intention with this thread, I was merely trying to point out that most hate comments are unwarranted and need to go away.

there are other threads with topics concerning the removal of pvp, this isn't one of them.

[protokon]

What I do perceive as trolling are the frequent comments that imply or outright state that anyone who disagrees with a proposed change to PvP either doesn't understand PvP or is somehow metally deficient and unworthy to state their opinions in that blessed thread.

while that comment is a bit abrasive, I agree with it. just don't back up negative comments with unrelated reasoning:

/not signed because I hate pvp
/not signed because pvp should die
/not signed because no dev time should be spent on pvp
/not signed because I hate all the general chat caused by the lobster
/not signed and OP should stop whining

none of those comments have anything beneficial to add to a thread otther than to degenerate it into personal attacks.

[BLAKROC]

I agree 100% that it is not a one-sided attack. but it is very easy and clear to see why threads trying to discuss a valid point degenerate into e-peen contests in which people start to challenge one another's validity rather than debate pros/cons of the actual topic.

if someone comments "get rid of this ability for this reason" and another user posts "this is why pvp should die" or "stop whining and deal with it", nothing positive has been contributed.

for the rest of you guys, please don't argue about semantics of what trolling is/isn't. that wasn't my intention with this thread, I was merely trying to point out that most hate comments are unwarranted and need to go away.

there are other threads with topics concerning the removal of pvp, this isn't one of them.

this could be a remove pvp thread don't tell me what to post. if mods dont like it they can remove it.


pvp=meh

[SilkofDrasnia]

No. You can't "cause" trolling with a post. You can intentionally troll with a post and some posts can make a person feel like they have been trolled even when they weren't, but simply stating that someone doesn't like a particular change to PvP or even that they want PvP removed from DDO entirely usually isn't a troll. It's usually a reaction to a perceived attack on what the person perceives as the core values of D&D. You may believe that it is an overreaction, but it's usually not a troll.

What I do perceive as trolling are the frequent comments that imply or outright state that anyone who disagrees with a proposed change to PvP either doesn't understand PvP or is somehow metally deficient and unworthy to state their opinions in that blessed thread.

i agree but you see you quoted me out of context thus nullifying the meaning of what i was saying .

in fact you are even agreeing with my earlier statements that you cant troll just by disagreeing with someone if you read my previous post my meaning should be sufficiently clear.

i wont be posting in this anymore because as someone has pointed out im being led astray from the thread topic and thats not my intention

[Pape_27]

it's just ridiculous how disrespectful people get over something that supposedly people don't care about.

That street runs both ways in the pvp threads.

In the post that was eaten by the cube, I posed a series of things the op could have used to mitigate and lessen the damage of the spell in question. What did i get in return? a snarky comment. No discussion. No talk about the merit (or lack there of) of the ideas. Just an off hand dismissal.

The root of the problem is based on the idea of pvp'ers saying if you dont do it, I dont wanna listen. There it goes back and forth until it escalates. So please dont try to slough it off as anti-pvp trolling, because the trolling comes from both sides of the argument.

Like it or not, people should not have their ability to post in the pvp forums impinged just because you dont happen to like what they say.

_

[protokon]

That street runs both ways in the pvp threads.

In the post that was eaten by the cube, I posed a series of things the op could have used to mitigate and lessen the damage of the spell in question. What did i get in return? a snarky comment. No discussion. No talk about the merit (or lack there of) of the ideas. Just an off hand dismissal.

The root of the problem is based on the idea of pvp'ers saying if you dont do it, I dont wanna listen. There it goes back and forth until it escalates. So please dont try to slough it off as anti-pvp trolling, because the trolling comes from both sides of the argument.

Like it or not, people should not have their ability to post in the pvp forums impinged just because you dont happen to like what they say.

_

im not disagreeing with you, in fact if you read my previous comments I mentioned that it goes both ways, but is typically degenerated to the point of bashing eachother.

several 'solutions' in that thread were completely mis-informed comments regarding an entirely different ability. still irrelevant to the topic at hand, I am mostly referring to posts that simply state:

"OP is still crying about pvp? he should stop whining and suck it up", or "don't pvp if you dont like it", comments that have absolutely no value in the discussion at all.

[fluffybunnywilson]

while that comment is a bit abrasive, I agree with it. just don't back up negative comments with unrelated reasoning:

/not signed because I hate pvp
/not signed because pvp should die
/not signed because no dev time should be spent on pvp
/not signed because I hate all the general chat caused by the lobster
/not signed and OP should stop whining

none of those comments have anything beneficial to add to a thread otther than to degenerate it into personal attacks.

Other than the last of the /not signed, I don't see any of those reasons as personal attacks. I agree that they don't have anything significantly beneficial to add to the thread, but I also think that the overwhelming majority of the original posts in the PvP forum don't have anything beneficial to add to the thread either.

And yet, I don't try to tell people that they shouldn't make threads in the PvP forum.

[Pape_27]

im not disagreeing with you, in fact if you read my previous comments I mentioned that it goes both ways, but is typically degenerated to the point of bashing eachother.

several 'solutions' in that thread were completely mis-informed comments regarding an entirely different ability. still irrelevant to the topic at hand, I am mostly referring to posts that simply state:

"OP is still crying about pvp? he should stop whining and suck it up", or "don't pvp if you dont like it", comments that have absolutely no value in the discussion at all.

the problem is when most of these suggestions come out, they come out for one reason only. The attitude of people in that position is basically "i dont wanna deal with this, nerf it".

People react negatively to any mention of the nerf bat in this game. Combine that with the general dislike of pvp in the game, its like a proverbial perfect storm in terms of generating negative reactions.

_

[Kalari]

It's not that they dont care even if thats what someone is typing. PVP was not apart of DDO I am one of the people who used to be very vocal against pvp didnt care for it, still honestly don't but after a few years and jumping around to other games seeing how they manage to keep their pvp/pve environments separated I realized that if we can bring in more players and not have them effect our core game with any said changes I honestly wouldnt care anymore. Though it still feels strange to even think about pvp in dungeons and dragons this is ddo a video game mmo who now have opened the doors to more play styles and types. We arent the small tight knit place we used to be and we can either keep fighting things that will eventually change since its not really in our hands or we can mitigate how things like this are changed and implemented suggest good ideas and get it done right.

Either way too many personalities on this board and in game to ever expect your OP to be taken seriously. It is far easier to keep stressing your point and not letting jabs get at you then to try to crusade in stopping people from expressing their opinions on pvp. Why fight a useless battle when you could be doing more to get what you want out of the game put forth?

[BitkaCK2]

Man, I'm always late to all the cool parties... dang late shifts. Okay on with the show, both sides feel passionately about their position with regards to PvP and as such will argue their case vehemently. Since neither side will budge from their stance there cannot be a winner and the discussion will inevitably degenerate into an argumentative, name calling troll-fest. It is the nature of the beast. The trick is to remember that while humans are animals we are not beasts. That way when threads begin to degenerate we can try and keep it from becoming cube food. To be honest though in the case of PvP versus anti-PvP debates the best case scenario would end being like watching two identical robots playing ping pong.

Earlier in the thread this post came up (quote snipped for brevity):

...snip...
This issue is not black and white, there is alot of grey in between, but what I generally see in the forums when someone post in the PVP section and they want to talk about a spell they are for or against, the anti-pvpers then respond, not because they want a spell or issue resolved, blocked, added, they chime in on the fact that it is PVP, period, and generally the above mentioned rationals come to play, guaranteed.

My point is, if you do not PVP, you dont liket PVP then I fail to understand why your opinning in the first place when most of the issues reviolve around the "act" of pvping.

If I may play devil's advocate (not demon troll) for a moment I do believe the issue is a bit more black and white than grey. Speaking for myself, part of the passion behind my anti-PvP is related to game changes for the sake of PvP in a PvE game. We can discuss and debate this until the cows come home but I have seen where such changes have slowly killed a game I loved and I cannot be convinced that I should keep quiet and say nothing. I will respectfully state my opinion, cite examples, posit potential game issues along with what ever else might be needed to make sure my concerns over some game change for the sake of PvP is heard*. Since this thread is more about 'how to opine without trolling' than 'this PvP change thing is bad' I won't digress into specifics. Suffice it to say I will respond with my opinion in a PvP thread when I feel it necessary (and when I have the time). What's that quote... "All evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing." ... something like that.

bitkaCK2



*I've been slacking lately due to some RL issues however things should ease up soon.

[protokon]

the problem is when most of these suggestions come out, they come out for one reason only. The attitude of people in that position is basically "i dont wanna deal with this, nerf it".

Understandable, but not all posts have that kind of intention.

People react negatively to any mention of the nerf bat in this game. Combine that with the general dislike of pvp in the game, its like a proverbial perfect storm in terms of generating negative reactions.

again very understandable, but this feels like an attempt to justify some of the comments being made, which are still unwarranted and unnecessary.

[Pape_27]

Understandable, but not all posts have that kind of intention.



again very understandable, but this feels like an attempt to justify some of the comments being made, which are still unwarranted and unnecessary.

No, not a justification. In no way am I trying to justify the actions of party a or party b.

Just getting to the root cause of the why's and how's.

-

[Gkar]

while that comment is a bit abrasive, I agree with it. just don't back up negative comments with unrelated reasoning:

/not signed because I hate pvp
/not signed because pvp should die
/not signed because no dev time should be spent on pvp
/not signed because I hate all the general chat caused by the lobster
/not signed and OP should stop whining

none of those comments have anything beneficial to add to a thread otther than to degenerate it into personal attacks.

Actually they do add something beneficial, information to devs on support level. Devs have in the past said they need to hear from both sides, as long as you don't start getting personal. All those lines except the last are approriate, the last one is deserving of neg rep or reporting.

[norman_quickfinger]

The thing is when ever the discussion of pvp comes up there will always be an argument. It's like discussing politics or religion it ends up being one huge argument. There has never been any posting by a Dev about expanding it. Correct me if I'm wrong(link to post) but the Devs have never even posted comments about pvp. The "pvp" that was put in the game was done as a time waster. DDO was never about pvp it's about pve. But as long as there are posts about pvp there will always be an argument going. Sad but true.

[protokon]

Actually they do add something beneficial, information to devs on support level. Devs have in the past said they need to hear from both sides, as long as you don't start getting personal. All those lines except the last are approriate, the last one is deserving of neg rep or reporting.

they are all inappropriate because they make comments that are not relevant to the discussion.

if someone opens a topic asking for X spell to be removed, stating any of those comments above is flaming and trolling - as stated by the moderators. The closest one to being reasonable is not wanting dev time wasted on modifying it.

[fluffybunnywilson]

they are all inappropriate because they make comments that are not relevant to the discussion.

The fact that you don't appreciate them or approve of them doesn't mean they're not relevant.

If someone says that they think a proposed highway should be two lanes and someone else thinks a highway should be four lanes, is it somehow off topic or irrelevant for someone else to say that they don't believe the highway should be built at all?

if someone opens a topic asking for X spell to be removed, stating any of those comments above is flaming and trolling - as stated by the moderators. The closest one to being reasonable is not wanting dev time wasted on modifying it.

The last of those comments could reasonably be taken as flaming or trolling. If the moderators decide that they don't want such comments, that's their business, but the fact that you or even Turbine declares something to be a troll doesn't make it one.

They can ban or censor someone for any reason of their choice - it's their forum, after all. But saying that any of those statements other than the last is a troll or a flame is wrong, no matter who says it.