Remove PvP completely or make those that want it pay for it.

[Therigar]

If PvP took place mostly in private instances, I would be just fine with it.

The fact that it makes navigating the Harbor and Market instances a nightmare affects my gaming experience.

I find this to be vastly overstated. I navigate both areas and never have issues. In fact, except when I'm in Meridia, I habitually return to the marketplace prior to logging off any character or quitting the game. And I never have navigation issues.

Changing PvP to private instances won't eliminate the chatter on the general chat channel. All of the public channels are so full of pointless and meaningless chatter now that I have them all turned off for most of my characters. I leave them on only on my haggle bard because he does all my shopping and selling -- which makes using Trade and General chat a sometimes useful tool.

If you don't like the chatter then disable the channel. What do you use it for anyway? To find groups? That's why there's a grouping tool. To talk with friends? That's why there are private channels.

No, instead of eliminating PvP how about eliminating general chat? It makes just about as much sense. I can cry about how annoying general chat is -- or I can turn it off.

Same with PvP. I can whine about how bad it is, or I can not participate.

Neither affects my ability to play the game. If it affects my enjoyment I simply turn it off -- problem solved.

[norman_quickfinger]

See for me, I have done pvp in Pnp. We used to run a level 40 campaign every year where we would all make lvl 40 toons (epic level handbook) and another DMese person would make a small wilderness area where we would hunt and kill each other. Was a lot of fun.

To say pvp has no place is a strech. If players want it, it has a place. Though I do not believe it should have any impact on the game mechanics.

One suggestion would be to have wilderness area's like gianthold or vale for PvP. then the pvp's would have their own area and it wouldn't just be (as much) of a gankfest.

Just my 2 copper (which will inevitably get me trolled)

Just one question. Did ya'll "balance" all the classes for it or did you use what you had to the best of your abilities.Because alot of the pvp threads i've seen are full of people wanting this and that nerf because someone used it pvp to kill them. We don't go to other game forums wanting them to remove pvp because the game was made to be a pvp mmo. DDO wasn't. It was put in here to waste time while waiting for a party to fill.

[Rellos]

Just one question. Did ya'll "balance" all the classes for it or did you use what you had to the best of your abilities.Because alot of the pvp threads i've seen are full of people wanting this and that nerf because someone used it pvp to kill them. We don't go to other game forums wanting them to remove pvp because the game was made to be a pvp mmo. DDO wasn't. It was put in here to waste time while waiting for a party to fill.

no, we used what we had the best we could. It really promoted outside the box thinking too.(since are are WAY more cheesy abilities and spells in PnP)

[Pape_27]

I'm tired of people playing wizards. I only play melees or divine casters - I think everyone that wants to play arcanes should have to pay extra. All those upgrades/balances/nerfs to arcane spells, and the new sorceror PrEs took time to implement that could have been better used to improve the classes I like.

How is my argument different from yours?

Its not. And I pay 10 dollars a month, in part, to play a wizard. Thats included in my VIP package. All classes and races.

There are also "pay to unlock" classes and races in DDO. Want to play a FvS, monk, or a warforged? Cha-ching.

Again, dollarsese. Want to make a convincing arguement that will get your suggestions implemented. This is the language you will need to speak to do so. It doesnt matter which side of the PVP debate youre on. If I wanted to convince Turbine that PVP isnt worth it, I would have to deliver a convincing arguement in fluent dollarsese to make that suggestion heard.

Actually, there is a large difference between the two.

The difference being that Wizards are a core class of the game, and people actually play the game in order to have access to such classes. Most people would be upset and would leave the game if the devs stopped advancing the character classes in the game. So the devs put time and effort into trying to balance out the growth of character classes, be they Arcane, Divine, Melee or Specialist classes. Most of the time, they err on the side of being too generous with abilities. Therefore, the never ending cycle of Additions and subsequent Nerfs to find a proper PvE balance is put into play. If they didn't do this, ultimately, having static character classes would result in the failure of the game.

Pvp on the other hand, was offered as a secondary entertainment to ddo, to provide a somewhat distraction from the real mission of the game, which is of course, PvE. PvP is not part of the game we all know as DnD, on which DDO is loosely based. It was added, quite frankly, as an after thought because someone at turbine said "Look at all the other fantasy mmo's they have PvP, so maybe we should add something". Since then? No real advancements to the PvP system have been made. Carrying that forward, if nothing else were done to bolster/upgrade/heighten the Pvp aspect of DDO, you think that would lead to its ultimate failure as a (somewhat) successful mmo?

We have already seen that it hasn't.

_

[FooWonk]

/signed, just get rid of it.

Don't mess with the training dummy (people who want to know the mechanics can do science rather than log parsing).

If it stays, I suggest it be open throughout the server, even in party. The only requirement is that the character has to be surnamed "Gankster".

[MartinusWyllt]

Are you going to tell me that you have never had any PvP in a tabletop game of Dungeons and Dragons ever?

Isn't this one of them there fancy "straw man" arguments?

Wouldn't a more appropriate framing of this question be something like:

"Are you going to tell me that you never dedicated significant amounts of tabletop gameplay to PvP?"

The answer to that, sir, is "Yes. I never dedicated significant amounts of my RPG time to PvP because passing lots of notes quickly becomes a PITA." I have, however, decimated unwary groups by ambushes when running Shadowrun...because ambushes are deadly and no amount of wired reflexes should save you from a well-placed bullet from the rooftop.

[nicnivyn]

I would like them to give the Wayward Lobster it's own chat channel though.

/signed

Leave PvP as it is but give each PvP area (tavern) its own channel so those of us who watch general/advice/trade won't have to deal with the spammage.

[Yajerman01]

/not signed

1. I enjoy DDO;
2. I enjoy PVP
3. I enjoy PVE
4. Turbine Instituted PVP therfore I pay for what Turbine has offered me to do.

I do not get alot of time to play; moreove,r I often find that while I am playing I am asked by family to assist in something, therefore, it is more respectible for me to walk away from a solo quest or pvp arena then leave people hanging in the middle of a quest.

PVP is a conveinance item for me and allows me the freedom to intermittently goof around with my favorite game. It has its flaws, but I have made it work for my time schedule. WHen I am bored with PVP or its going slow, I go Solo quests because the same theory applies, I can walk away (more or less) when family calls and I do not impede or jeoporadize another persons playtime.

I am all for expanding PVP or enhancing it; but to minimize it more would be IMHO a travesty.

Thank you for reading from a person whos played for almost 5 years.

[Chai]

Actually, there is a large difference between the two.

The difference being that Wizards are a core class of the game, and people actually play the game in order to have access to such classes. Most people would be upset and would leave the game if the devs stopped advancing the character classes in the game. So the devs put time and effort into trying to balance out the growth of character classes, be they Arcane, Divine, Melee or Specialist classes. Most of the time, they err on the side of being too generous with abilities. Therefore, the never ending cycle of Additions and subsequent Nerfs to find a proper PvE balance is put into play. If they didn't do this, ultimately, having static character classes would result in the failure of the game.

Pvp on the other hand, was offered as a secondary entertainment to ddo, to provide a somewhat distraction from the real mission of the game, which is of course, PvE. PvP is not part of the game we all know as DnD, on which DDO is loosely based. It was added, quite frankly, as an after thought because someone at turbine said "Look at all the other fantasy mmo's they have PvP, so maybe we should add something". Since then? No real advancements to the PvP system have been made. Carrying that forward, if nothing else were done to bolster/upgrade/heighten the Pvp aspect of DDO, you think that would lead to its ultimate failure as a (somewhat) successful mmo?

We have already seen that it hasn't.

_

I agree, because part of the draw to may of the players is that it was NOT designed with PVP in mind. I am of that opinion because I have the opinion that D&D has never been balanced for PVP. There are many games that succeed in part because of PVP but those games didnt start and play forward for 5 years without it then try to add it as a full feature of the game. They launched with PVP being just as much of a focus as PVE, or PVP was focused on more shortly thereafter.

I would accept however, that if people wanted to pay for its development so that there is no drain on current development resources to implement all these requested changes. It is my opinion that Turbine should not take away from the number of engineers working on PVE just to bolster PVP. I believe that content already flows in at a slow enough rate that many people who have done everything this game has to offer are sitting and waiting for new content. Even most people in support of PVP will agree with me on this. Thus, if they find that bolstering PVP would be a good financial move, then that investment needs to be made to that end and ADD engineers, so there is the same number or more working on PVE and additional personel working on PVP. The converse - subtracting from the PVE pool to add to PVP with no further investment (paid for in part by those who want PVP) then = that new content will be further delayed. Delayed content is already an issue and I dont want to see it become more of an issue.

...And there is no better metric to use to convince a for profit business, than $$$$. Want a bunch of new features centered around your playstyle? Show that the revenue potential is there. The PVE crowd has done this since the beginning of the game, as DDO was created as a PVE game and subscribed to as a PVE game by those who have supported it for five years now. What Turbine was marketing was attractive to those players, and that was a PVE game, which was not another one of the sammich clone MMOs.

[Clay]

"Stop spending dev time on anything that is frivolous and extraneous to my likes and desires. My likes are what is important and your likes be dammed."

Is my understanding of the OP correct?

Why not create and maintain a game that can entertain people of different interests at the same time? Is it really such a burden to you that some percentage of the paying population enjoys PvP? Have you ever tried PvP outside of the tavern brawls? You may be surprised what you could and could not enjoy if you reexamined your prejudices.

I know I was.

[Kalari]

I can honestly say I have never had pvp in a pen and paper session of mine, mostly my group were working together against hordes of mobs or trying to find a rare treasure or artifact. Little arguements may have cropped up but not full on fights because its pointless team work was always the heart of the game.

That being said this is an mmo a mmo that has opened its doors by going free to play to all sorts of new play styles. I look at it this way a year ago you couldnt have gotten me to even think about pvp seriously. But the game needs time sinks and more revenue cannot be a bad thing. If people are seriously willing to put their money where their mouths are, they can find a way to fix pvp issues and not have it affect our pve environment by keeping it completely optional (like events and the like) then balking just seems out of place.

Give them a way to enjoy it pay for it and keep it out of the mainstream I would love to see general chat clear of the ignorance of smack talk or whining by certain pvp legends as it is. I just think honestly if the developers are going to work on pvp there will be nothing us hold outs will be able to do about it save try to get ideas put in place that wont hurt our core play. Id rather come up with ideas for them to help those into it and bring money into the game without it bothering pve in whole then to keep trying to fight against it and have them bring in an invasive new layout. Trust me as someone who remembers ddo without a store and all the new changes we had no say in id rather be safe then sorry.

[Missing_Minds]

/signed

Leave PvP as it is but give each PvP area (tavern) its own channel so those of us who watch general/advice/trade won't have to deal with the spammage.

I can get behind that suggestion as well.

[protokon]

I can get behind that suggestion as well.

this is a huge misconception. I have only spent a few weeks down in the tavern, and most of the general chat nonsense is not caused by the lobster. In fact, the silly banter can be found in any f2p area of the game - korthos, the harbor, the marketplace, the various houses...

any time someone decided they had to say something to me while participating in the lobster, I recieved a tell, I have never once seen a comment in general chat referring to pvp.

If giving a separate general chat channel to the tavern gives you peace then I have nothing against it.

[Sarisa]

this is a huge misconception. I have only spent a few weeks down in the tavern, and most of the general chat nonsense is not caused by the lobster. In fact, the silly banter can be found in any f2p area of the game - korthos, the harbor, the marketplace, the various houses...

any time someone decided they had to say something to me while participating in the lobster, I recieved a tell, I have never once seen a comment in general chat referring to pvp.

If giving a separate general chat channel to the tavern gives you peace then I have nothing against it.

You haven't seen the harbour, in general, trade, and even advice, on Sarlona in the evenings. Maybe your server is just more polite about their PvP disputes.

[Yajerman01]

You haven't seen the harbour, in general, trade, and even advice, on Sarlona in the evenings. Maybe your server is just more polite about their PvP disputes.

Coming from Thelanis, maybe, maybe not - as for myself I just do not follow general chat to care enough what is transpiring, whether I am in PVP or not. If someone wants my attention they generally send a tell, and if they are nasty I just ignore it, and if they continue I just squelch them. Nothing personal, I just do not make time to feel griefed by others; moreover, I have never bothered with general chat as a whole because it is not part of my "gaming" experience - most often i see boring dribble or people pawning items or people lost.

Generall chat is usually overlapped by Guild chat or party chat anyway.

[AtomicMew]

This reminds me of certain discussions on certain Bioware romances. Not completely analogous, but I think the idea stands. Here's a quote from David Gaider which I think is quite poignant:

The person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.

I don't PvP and probably never will. But some people enjoy it, and to say that PvP should just be just amputated seems quite selfish.

[Habreno]

This reminds me of certain discussions on certain Bioware romances. Not completely analogous, but I think the idea stands. Here's a quote from David Gaider which I think is quite poignant:

The person who says that the only way to please them is to restrict options for others is, if you ask me, the one who deserves it least. And that's my opinion, expressed as politely as possible.

I don't PvP and probably never will. But some people enjoy it, and to say that PvP should just be just amputated seems quite selfish.

+1, well said.

[Postumus]

Again, dollarsese. Want to make a convincing arguement that will get your suggestions implemented. This is the language you will need to speak to do so. It doesnt matter which side of the PVP debate youre on. If I wanted to convince Turbine that PVP isnt worth it, I would have to deliver a convincing arguement in fluent dollarsese to make that suggestion heard.

If Turbine is like any other company, they are going to use actual DDO statistics regarding how much revenue PAYING players who use/participate in PvP activities contribute to the DDO pie, and not some hypothetical forum argument based on personal opinion.


Regardless of what traditional DDO players consider DDO to be, or how DDO should be defined, if Turbine decides that they can make more money catering to PvPers, then that is what they are going to do regardless of how many long term players threaten to quit or how many threads get posted in their forum.


Even though I don't play DDO for the PvP element, I think Turbine should try to expand its PvP market simply from a business perspective. It's short-sighted not to because it's a huge market. Kids grow up playing PvP games. They have more time and tend to spend more of their 'income' on video games. The 30-50 somethings who grew up playing PnP won't be around forever, and they certainly aren't a growing market.


I'll be surprised if more PvP type packages don't start coming out in the next couple of years.

[phum]

As Memnir said, the devs chose option 2 long ago.

I kinda disapprove of ppl labeling pvp a waste. I and probly many others see it as potential. I firmly believe DDO is reaching out to players without a pnp background and most of those have some of their best online gaming experiences in pvp. I'll never be convinced that a good pvp system could not be created in DDO and without good knowledge (I at least don't possess anything of the sort, just a vague idea) about their organizational structure the question of resources should not imo be even presented. May be I'm being a bit too naive and trusting about Turbine.. but the set of rules for pvp can be modified(they already exist) without creating any content and once the rules are proper the content is easier to make than pve content. I think they can do it if they choose to, but i do realize that would be a continuous work alongside pve development. Would it be difficult? Once the basis is good, no.

What i would like to see are quests that have pvp elements like optional(/forced wouldn't with DDO's solobility) duels(i miss those from my pnp), optional/forced pt vs pt in a raid, events etc, but i guess the rules and the playerbase arent ready for it..

The problem of how to modify the rules is something that every little answer to which generates quite a bit hate in these forums. I know it's because people do not differentiate between pve n pvp enough, but that differentiation really should be a given.

So, tldr: /not signed

[Postumus]

Pvp on the other hand, was offered as a secondary entertainment to ddo, to provide a somewhat distraction from the real mission of the game, which is of course, PvE. PvP is not part of the game we all know as DnD, on which DDO is loosely based. It was added, quite frankly, as an after thought because someone at turbine said "Look at all the other fantasy mmo's they have PvP, so maybe we should add something". Since then? No real advancements to the PvP system have been made. Carrying that forward, if nothing else were done to bolster/upgrade/heighten the Pvp aspect of DDO, you think that would lead to its ultimate failure as a (somewhat) successful mmo?

We have already seen that it hasn't.

_

F2P, according to Turbine, was a huge boon to DDO. But if they want to keep growing the customer base - especially internationally, they need to do more than just add more PvE content that they spend months developing and people burn through it in a week. Turbine needs to improve PvP content so the game is more multi-dimensional and appeals to a larger player base.


How that should be implemented is a good topic of discussion for PvP threads. Taking the position that PvP is anathema to DDO b/c it was never part of the original PnP game and therefore should be eliminated is sticking one's head in the sand.