Remove PvP completely or make those that want it pay for it.

[jwdaniels]

We dont have that kind of idiot in our group either or we wont for very long

It was an example... How do you pass downtime when a bunch of people are sitting there with dice and character sheets and time to kill?

I've been playing tabletop for over 25 years and every edition of the game - there is always some sort of downtime and, regardless of the age of the players, someone eventually suggests a combat to see who would win between two different characters.

[khaldan]

We dont have that kind of idiot in our group either or we wont for very long

So they just sit around doing nothing while they wait for the rest of the party to do what they need to do with the DM? It doesn't really apply if they died, as they could be rolling up a new character, but for the separated scenarios it still applies.

Note: I have not played DnD in pen and paper form, so anything I say on that can and probably should be taken with a grain of salt, but waiting for however long it takes for the group to get back together seems like a bit of a wait, and I could see a random fight between two people, if it didn't affect the game at all.

[Uska]

It was an example... How do you pass downtime when a bunch of people are sitting there with dice and character sheets and time to kill?

I've been playing tabletop for over 25 years and every edition of the game - there is always some sort of downtime and, regardless of the age of the players, someone eventually suggests a combat to see who would win between two different characters.

we usually get up get a drink or something or play a hand of magic we use to fire up the linked playstations and play linked doom now we are just a likely to fire up rockband or something we dont usually have a problem finding something to do if there is downtime for a part of the party and I have been playing for over 35 years.

[Uska]

So they just sit around doing nothing while they wait for the rest of the party to do what they need to do with the DM? It doesn't really apply if they died, as they could be rolling up a new character, but for the separated scenarios it still applies.

Note: I have not played DnD in pen and paper form, so anything I say on that can and probably should be taken with a grain of salt, but waiting for however long it takes for the group to get back together seems like a bit of a wait, and I could see a random fight between two people, if it didn't affect the game at all.

nah we just find something to do we dont often split the party as it often has bad results when it happens.

[khaldan]

we usually get up get a drink or something or play a hand of magic we use to fire up the linked playstations and play linked doom now we are just a likely to fire up rockband or something we dont usually have a problem finding something to do if there is downtime for a part of the party and I have been playing for over 35 years.

Fair enough. Not everyone has a bunch of game systems lying nearby, but I do see your point.

[Uska]

Fair enough. Not everyone has a bunch of game systems lying nearby, but I do see your point.

Actually we all have to much stuff lying around it distracts people sometimes espceially new ones I have way to much stuff in my game room, games toys larp weapons real weapons should likely hide some if it to take away some of the temptations.

[Chai]

If you don't like PvP then don't PvP. But respect those others who do like it and those who have used it to improve the way we go about things by experimentation and testing. It turns out they've actually helped you even though you are unaware of it.

Let them put their money where their mouth is. This is the metric by which a business will make this determination anyhow.

PVPers have been helped ALOT more by those who dont use it as well, by paying to support this game where time was put in to enhance a feature most dont use. Want to convince Turbine more PVP features are good for the game? Become fluent in dollarsese.

[jwdaniels]

Let them put their money where their mouth is. This is the metric by which a business will make this determination anyhow.

PVPers have been helped ALOT more by those who dont use it as well, by paying to support this game where time was put in to enhance a feature most dont use. Want to convince Turbine more PVP features are good for the game? Become fluent in dollarsese.

I'm tired of people playing wizards. I only play melees or divine casters - I think everyone that wants to play arcanes should have to pay extra. All those upgrades/balances/nerfs to arcane spells, and the new sorceror PrEs took time to implement that could have been better used to improve the classes I like.

How is my argument different from yours?

[SaisMatters]

The threads are a symptom of the greater problem - PvP does not belong in DDO. I believe this 100% from head to toe.

/signed
If I wanted to PVP I'd play WOW

[Cyr]

Not much of a pvp fan myself, but as long as no changes were ever made for 'balance' purposes for pvp I wouldn't mind the following...

A challenge option for some quests where two 3 man teams that effected each other like they were enemy mobs competed to complete the most quest objectives/optionals and were rewarded with better xp/loot if they won. Of course nothing drastic here on loot/xp, but a little something.

This could be fun in quests like Gwayln's, BoB, or Framework for example.

[Hendrik]

/signed
If I wanted to PVP I'd play WOW

I would not go that far for PvP, I do have some dignity and self respect.

[Sarisa]

I personally do not like PvP. I do not want to see a lot of developer effort be spent on it, as I've witnessed far too many PvE based games that were ruined by it. Inevitably, PvE/PvM play gets altered beyond recognition or worse completely destroyed by PvP balancing.

Note that games that are PvP based from the start are fine, the above statement is for PvE based games who later try to balance PvP in order to draw a larger crowd.

The d20 system is inherently unbalanced and not designed with PvP in mind. It can work, just it WILL end up being a test of "cheesy" skills, and caster supremacy. The Linear Warriors, Quadratic Wizards trope is at the heart of the DnD class system.

One possible way that PvP COULD work in DDO is by having a completely different ruleset for PvP as opposed to PvE. This is, however, a huge amount of work for very limited interest. It also completely invalidates any sort of testing of builds, saves, and the like that can be done with PvP now.

Even though I personally hate PvP, there are a few people who do like it, and who do participate responsibly. Therefore, I can't recommend removing it completely. I just would like to see PvP balancing or changes NEVER impact PvE play.

The only other issue I have with PvP as it currently exists is, as mentioned above, the open area issues. This is especially pertinent with the Lobster. Before I got my new computer, there were only three places in the game where I had massive graphical lag (lag specifically the result of graphical complexity, this doesn't count loot generation lag like with the Tor dragons and in the Shroud). VoD when the second round of Orthons popped up and someone tossed an Ice Storm; Spartan/Ball method DQ's when she was at the group; and in the Lobster when I was trying to get or turn in one of the quests in there. Even my new computer, which is only 2 months old, and has a high end video card, will occasionally get some graphical lag when going into the lobster. The public nature of PvP in the pit does adversely impact those players around it.

In addition, because it's part of the harbour chat channel, any arguments, disagreements, and trash talking that starts in the Pit ends up being seen by large numbers of new players. Almost all level 2-4 players will NOT care about PvP oriented arguments. Seeing these types of arguments and trash talk almost constantly when they are trying to do Butcher's Path is not putting a good impression of the game to those who are actually new to the game. The game needs new players, especially those who are willing to learn and adapt.

If the PvP pits were their own instance, with their own chat channels, so that PvP oriented lag and chat do not impact the rest of the world, I would have absolutely no problem with PvP as it currently is.

[TheDearLeader]

It was an example... How do you pass downtime when a bunch of people are sitting there with dice and character sheets and time to kill?

I've been playing tabletop for over 25 years and every edition of the game - there is always some sort of downtime and, regardless of the age of the players, someone eventually suggests a combat to see who would win between two different characters.

My groups spend that downtime playing games like Halo and Super Smash Brothers - games specifically geared for PvP.

[Postumus]

I'm tired of people playing wizards. I only play melees or divine casters - I think everyone that wants to play arcanes should have to pay extra. All those upgrades/balances/nerfs to arcane spells, and the new sorceror PrEs took time to implement that could have been better used to improve the classes I like.

How is my argument different from yours?

Exactly JW.

I feel the same way about Barbarians. Why do I have to pay for other people to play the barbarian class?

It's not fair. The class should be removed from DDO - it isn't even a real class by 1E rules. At the very least people who play barbarians should have to pay extra.

Maybe I should start a thread in the melee forums about how Barbarians are stupid and should be removed from the game? If I don't, then the devs might think I actually support the barbarian class and spend more resources on it instead of something I want.

[TheDearLeader]

I'm tired of people playing wizards. I only play melees or divine casters - I think everyone that wants to play arcanes should have to pay extra. All those upgrades/balances/nerfs to arcane spells, and the new sorceror PrEs took time to implement that could have been better used to improve the classes I like.

How is my argument different from yours?

Exactly JW.

I feel the same way about Barbarians. Why do I have to pay for other people to play the barbarian class?

It's not fair. The class should be removed from DDO - it isn't even a real class by 1E rules. At the very least people who play barbarians should have to pay extra.

Maybe I should start a thread in the melee forums about how Barbarians are stupid and should be removed from the game? If I don't, then the devs might think I actually support the barbarian class and spend more resourced on it instead of something I want.

Difference is, the majority of the paying player base would not support you two. Whereas I do believe the majority of the paying player base, if given a worldwide vote, would be consent to not a single hour of Developer time being put into PvP.

We're all entitled to our opinions. But what moves Turbine is money.

[ddoplayer064]

/signed
prefer option 1
pvp has absolutely no business in DDO.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Let them put their money where their mouth is. This is the metric by which a business will make this determination anyhow.

PVPers have been helped ALOT more by those who dont use it as well, by paying to support this game where time was put in to enhance a feature most dont use. Want to convince Turbine more PVP features are good for the game? Become fluent in dollarsese.

now i have to ask you where your studies showing that pvp players havent played any kinda of pve and dont have subs or are not premium players?

its part of the problem this post ive just quoted where theres a lack of "respect" in this community.

i understand what u mean and can even respect what you are trying to say but the manner in which you say its is clearly meant to be insulting towards pvpers

[BruceTheHoon]

PvP has no place in a Dungeons and Dragons MMO.

Think what you will, but PC vs NPC duel is a PvP match. Or is DM not a person?

1) Completely remove PVP in all forms and recode the training dummy to be able to be completely customized (hp, saves, fortification, AC, whatever) and have all abilities usable on it with extended combat feedback if wanted.

2) Leave PvP as-is, in its current form, with no further amount of developer time ever spent on it at all. Money and time already spent is gone (wasted IMO) and no reason throwing good money after bad.

3) This is my least favorite option, but lets the PvPers put their money where their mouth is. Make all aspects of PvP store-only: brawls, challenges, whatever. Any and all development costs (Dev salaries, whatever) for PvP can only go up to an amount that is capped by whatever money is brought in by PvP sales.

I am tired of seeing thread after thread about PvP when it has no place in a DnD MMO. Please remove it completely.

The dummy idea is good, but it really doesn't have anything to do with PvP.

You might be revolted by the PvP, but some other people obviously are not. Some people really like it, which means, that PvP brings peple to the game and people bring money.
It might be a miniscule number of players, but it's still a positive net gain (I really can't se anybody leaving DDO just because of this obscure and marginalized form of PvP that we have). Removing PvP would be bad for them and bad for them and people leaving because of it would be bad for the game. It would also mean that the devs would have to spend time doing really absolutely nothing for the game.
Making it a buyable content would be an option, but I doubt, that much peple (if any) would buy PvP content in the state that it is. To make PvP a viable selling product, some initial investment would have to be made. Judging by the state of PvP A LOT of initial invstment would have to be made. Perhaps the devs would now even consider taking changes that would hurt PvE but would benefit PvP to make this happen and we definitely wouldn't want this, would we (I certainly wouldn't)? To make things worse, people would actually feel that they are entitled to PvP balancing changes because they've bought it. Imagine the amount of PvP threads after that!
If you don't like PvP, my suggestion would be just to stay clear of the PvP forums. Crusades are so 11th century.

That's a bit narrow minded.

That's a bit of an understatement.

I dont like the plethora of nerf suggestions simply because theres a new feature for PVE and the PVPers cant seem to figure out how to beat it other than building for it to stomp everyone else who also have not figured out how to beat it yet.

Telling us to not click into their thread is the same mentality as us talling them to go play a real PVP game, which was designed around PVP from the ground up since day 1. Dont click into their suggestion threads? Dont click into a PVE game for PVP enjoyment. Neither of these solves the issue, but making this type of comparison definately gets the point accross.

Have the devs ever implementeda change - that benefited PvP but hurt PvE - with the sole intention of improving PvP?

On a side note,
I still don't get it, why anyone would come to the PvP section of the game's forums and start telling people that this game is not a PvP game. it has a PvP option, therefore it is a PvP game. The scope of the PvP element is irrelevant.

Being offended by the PvP forums/threads, because you feel like it shouldn't be here, is like being offended by strawberries, because you are alergic to them. nobody can help anyone else with that.

EDIT:
I also haven't yet seen any argument supporting many claims, that PvP has no part in DDO.

[TheDearLeader]

now i have to ask you where your studies showing that pvp players havent played any kinda of pve and dont have subs or are not premium players?

its part of the problem this post ive just quoted where theres a lack of "respect" in this community.

i understand what u mean and can even respect what you are trying to say but the manner in which you say its is clearly meant to be insulting towards pvpers

I'm thinking you're being a little too soft-skinned. When there's thousands of people online on a Server, and only twenty of them are in the Lobster, I think we can safely assume that PvE dominates the majority of a player's time.

Chai's not trying to insult - just point out that a majority is paying for a content feature that a minority uses.

[flynnjsw]

Think what you will, but PC vs NPC duel is a PvP match. Or is DM not a person?

The DM is a person, just as the PC's are people. However, characters are not fighting the DM.