PM Race for a TR

[RumbIe]

So I am about to TR my Drow 18/2 PM Rogue splash. I've loved playing him and had a lot of fun. Evasion and UMD raising dead healers in a pinch as well as my versatility in being the trapper who can mass hold, etc. It's gotten me into several groups looking only for a trapper rogue where otherwise I'd have been left by the wayside. However sadly for higher level Epics even I realize my DCs are too low. I have no ToD rings yet due to lousy luck getting boot mats so my DCs are only about 37-38. This keeps me out of Epic Chrono and makes me to nervous to join Epic sands on my caster for fear of blowing it for the whole party.

So I am ready to TR, ToD rings or not. I originally went Drow for the poor mans extra point build, but am saddened by the fact that TR'd Drow are still only 32 points as opposed to other races. I have read many posts about which race is better and even tried an older version of a builder. I compared a TR'd human 34 point build to a post from someone who built a drow and they showed a 27 top Int (Though I don't think they counted the capstone somehow) with a +2 Int tome and I got mine to 31 (that's with Capstone or 29 without) and using a +2 tome or to even things out 32 with a +3 tome.

Everyone says Drow have the highest int even as a single TR from what I think I've read so what gives? Have I done this wrong? To end the debate once and for all is it possible if anyone is good or enjoys the builder (I'm really slow with it ) to post three identical builds for human, drow and elf so we can see for once who would have the highest DC and Spell Pen? I recognize that there might be some racial differences that would promote one build to be made slightly different to enhance that racial feature, but every time I see a build it seems it's apples and oranges. The clarify the build should be spec'd for GSF in Necro and Enchant. Pure Wizard PM build. I will probably make it ice and force damage based for an end build. Though acid seems nice too. It's good we can play with this every 3 days.

Let's make this the definitive thread and end the discussion once and for all!!! (BTW thanks in advance )

[richieelias27]

All things being equal, Drow/Human have the highest DC depending on whether your INT is odd or even with a Drow. Elves have the highest Spell penetration possible.

Drow gets +2 INT at creation meaning a max INT of 20, that is +2. Humans have a max INT of 18 at creation with a possible +1 racial that nobody else gets. That makes Humans +1. No matter what, all things being equal, Drow will always be +2 and Human will always be +1 (assuming you take the racial enhancement for INT). All races except Elf gets the exact same spell penetration possibilities. Elves get an enhancement line for a max of +4 over every other race.

Not really much to debate with that.

Now which one works best for you depends entirely on the gear you have available, and what enhancements you want.

[RumbIe]

Thanks. I'm curious then how on the PM enchanter thread (current thread being posted on today) they show a drow with only 27 Int as end Int with starting at 20. They picked up +3 Wiz Int, a +2 tome and +5 from ability score increases. I guess the builder he was using was wrong because that puts him at 30. If I go human I would have 18 start, +3 Wiz, and +5 from leveling ability raise which makes me 27. If I use a +3 tome instead of +2 then I also end up with 30. (We both would have 32 with cap). The difference is I would have an extra feat and he would have better spell resistance only? also I would have higher HP.

As an elf then they would have +4 spell pen, but one less feat than human and less hp. If that feat is Greater Spell Pen that they drop then the difference is only +3 I guess. I understand the roll of DC's but I'm not sure I understand how Spell Pen works and how important it is at higher levels.

[Tuney]

I like how people forget about Half-elves they get access to eather Eleven Dex 1 and 2 or Human adabaility 1 and 2.

And with Half Elf Dillies you could go with Barb to gain access to Barb Con 1 and 2 toughnesses. Or even Cleric to gain full wand access and useage of most divine scrolls if you spend the AP to 'raise the cleric level',

You gain most of the benifets of being human or elves but about only thing you don't get is under enchantments is Eleven Arcanum or choice of a feat at level 1.

[voodoogroves]

Spell Pen is a separate check. Some monsters have SR, which you need spell penetration to beat. Some have none.

Consider an epic human caster mob with a 25 or so Fort Save, no SR. You cast Finger of Death, maybe he makes the save, maybe not.

Consider an epic drow caster with the same Fort Save but an SR in the high 30s/low 40s ... let's call it 40. If your caster level check for spell penetration doesn't get higher than his SR then he doesn't even have to save.

Not every mob has SR; some do.



Some spells don't have SR checks, some don't have saves, etc. The nice thing about a wizard is knowing best what to apply to which and having the versatility to bring the right tool.

[varusso]

DROW:
Base:20
Enhancements: 3
LVL: 5
Tome: 2 (easy) 3 (some luck/effort)
Item: 6 (7 if you farm)
Exceptional: 3
PM Lich: 2
Cap: 2
TOTAL: 43 (41)

HUMAN:
Base:18
Enhancements: 4
LVL: 5
Tome: 2 (easy) 3 (some luck/effort)
Item: 6 (7 if you farm)
Exceptional: 3
PM Lich: 2
Cap: 2
TOTAL: 42 (40)

ELF:
Base:18
Enhancements: 3
LVL: 5
Tome: 2 (easy) 3 (some luck/effort)
Item: 6 (7 if you farm)
Exceptional: 3
PM Lich: 2
Cap: 2
TOTAL: 41 (39)

I used the easy to get numbers for the totals on each one. This assumes you are not shooting for the +3 tome (I am not even bothering with +4 tomes, because thats just not realistic for the majority of players) or the +7 INT items. If you get either of them, you can add +1 to the total. If you get both, add +2. You said you are going PM, so I included the +2 INT from lich. Also, this INCLUDES the capstone -- which if you are doing wiz/rogue again, you have to drop 2 points, since you wont qualify for the cap. These are the numbers in (parentheses), your actual target numbers, easily achieved at cap.

Now, Elf gets the Elven Arcanum, which gives you +1 spell pen and +20 SP per enhancement, up to 4 times. If you go elven, you essentially have the same INT target as human, but one less feat. HOwever, you get more SP and SR through the arcanum, and you can always opt for one (or 2) less spell pen feats on the elf, since you can get the same Spell Pen via enhancements, freeing up one or 2 feats. Elf gives you more options, as long as you have the enhancement points to spare. But with either human or elf, you are -1 DC compared to the Drow (depending of course on how much you want to farm the rarer gear, but we can assume you would spend the same amount of effort on that regardless of your race, so all things being equal, -1 potential DC). Of course your DC would be irrelevant if you cant get past the SR of the mob.

Everyone will have different opinions on which one is best, and some will cite game mechanics and frequency of each one occurring based on which quests you run regularly, and about a hundred other things that really depend on YOU personally.

Myself, I just TRed my WF wiz/rogue into an elf, cos I want to see first hand how well it will work out. I accept that my DCs will be lower than a pure wiz. Its just the way it is. But they will be 'good enough' in the vast majority of content. Realistically, 1-2 DC is not game breaking. a DC here and a DC there WILL add up and eventually just be too much to overcome. But far too many ppl think that if you dont have the absolute best you can possibly have in everything (including gear and build), then you cant function. Simply not true. Pick the build that works best for you, based on the playstyle you like, and the amount of time you are willing to spend farming for the 'perfect' gear.

Other than that, anything anyone posts here (including me) is just background info to help give you some idea of what to expect, based on our own experience with each build.

[RumbIe]

Thanks for the explanations. They make sense. I'm trying to piece together though what I could posisbly end up with for a max dc. I see people posting looking for dc's of 43 +. Since mine is just 38 currently I'm curious how to get that high or what I need to do while creating my character to make it possible. I do recognize that gear helps, but there's only so much it can do right?

So using a human and lets say I use a +3 tome: I will have:

HUMAN:
Base:18
Enhancements: 4 (3 Wiz Int +1 Human)
Leveling: 5
Tome: 3
Item: 7
Exceptional: 2 (I have the Epic Spyglass that gives +2 Exceptional)
PM Lich: 2
Cap: 2
TOTAL: 43 but for all intents and purposes might as well be 42

I have a mad trickery staff which gives +2 Ench DC or a Dreamspitter which also gives that I sometimes use.

So my DC would be 10+16(Int Modifier)+2 (from item above)+1 SF +1 GSF +9 (Heightened Spell)+1 Wiz Pastlife Feat = 40.

I recognize that a ToD ring could give me +3 exceptional Int. Would that stack with the +2 from the spyglass? If so that's 2 more added to my DC (2 more because i was at an odd number so +3 int would give me two more to my modifier), but still that only gets me at 42.

How do I get higher than that? Is there any other gear I'm missing that stacks somehow? I guess my ship buff gives me an additional +2 Int so there's an extra +1 DC. A bard song enhances more. Are these people all using these to figure out their DC for Epic quests? I think it's kind of unrealistic because if they end up dying and you're counting on a 43 or 44 DC to save the day then you're stuffed.

Apart from a ToD ring with +3 exceptional int what other gear can I get or how else can I change my build to squeeze a bit more DC out of my enchant (and necro would be the same considering SF, GSF and a +2 necro item)

I just want to make sure I build a character that can be the best I can get them from a solid base being built. Thanks again.

[Mackem]

I recognize that a ToD ring could give me +3 exceptional Int. Would that stack with the +2 from the spyglass?

No. You can though craft a +1 exceptional INT into the spyglass if you wish which will make it equal to +3 from a ToD ring.

I would vote to go human for the extra feat.

I recently TR-ed my wiz into a 36-pt WF pale master since he's a work in progress and due to heavy investment in docents but he is going to end up as human on his final life.

[varusso]

I recognize that a ToD ring could give me +3 exceptional Int. Would that stack with the +2 from the spyglass? If so that's 2 more added to my DC (2 more because i was at an odd number so +3 int would give me two more to my modifier), but still that only gets me at 42.

How do I get higher than that? Is there any other gear I'm missing that stacks somehow? I guess my ship buff gives me an additional +2 Int so there's an extra +1 DC. A bard song enhances more. Are these people all using these to figure out their DC for Epic quests? I think it's kind of unrealistic because if they end up dying and you're counting on a 43 or 44 DC to save the day then you're stuffed.

Apart from a ToD ring with +3 exceptional int what other gear can I get or how else can I change my build to squeeze a bit more DC out of my enchant (and necro would be the same considering SF, GSF and a +2 necro item)

I just want to make sure I build a character that can be the best I can get them from a solid base being built. Thanks again.

I have +2 exceptional INT from Spyglass and +1 exceptional INT from DT robes, and they DO stack, giving me +3
Some knothead in-game actually tried to argue with me, insisting that they didnt, despite the fact that I was wearing them AND getting stacking bonuses from them. All of the other exceptional bonuses I have seen for anything else stack, so long as they are different values, but I dont own a TOD ring, so I cant tell you first-hand if they stack or not. I CAN tell you that the DT and Spyglass stack, so you can get +1 INT from that, giving you an even number for +1 DC (this is actually the +3 exceptional INT i was referring to in my previous post).

Oddly enough, because of the extra exceptional INT and the +1 INT from human enhancements, my human PM has the exact same INT (and DCs) as my drow when fully buffed. (My drow doesnt have the +1 exceptional int on DT armor, because it would give her an odd number and be wasted.

Oh yeah, you can also get bonus INT from ship buffs and pots, but I dont count those because the pots are not reasonably sustainable unless you really like farming, and ship buffs go away when you die or spend more than an hour away from the ship. Basically, if I cant keep it self-maintained without unreasonable effort, I just dont rely on it. But you COULD in theory get higher INT (and DCs) if you were willing to grind it out and be tethered to your ship...not really worth the long-term effort vs. short-term return, IMO.

[Mackem]

...exceptional bonuses I have seen for anything else stack, so long as they are different values

Correct.

However +2 from spyglass will still not stack with +3 from a ToD ring because the +3 on a ring would normally consist of the inherent +1 on the ring itself plus another +2 exceptional stat crafted into it. So those two +2's would not be stacking.

You can always craft +2 to another stat or something else in the said ring and keep using the spyglass

[emptysands]

Human vs Drow vs HE is more a question about feats and equipment.

INT 18 + 2 = 20 +6 = 26 +5(lvl) +1 (hm/he) +3(wiz) +2(cap) +3(excpt) = 40
        +2(ship) +2(yugo)+2(lich)=46 + 2(tome/epic) +2 (tome/litany) = 50

Drow will get +2 vs +1 (hm/he). So a toon with a litany but no +3 or +4 tome, will be better as a Drow than a Human - unless you want to save the 6AP from Wizard Intelligence III.

Half Elf allows aspects like the Pally Dilettante for saves, or Cleric/FvS if don't want to focus on UMD levelling up. Both Human or HE can get to the same INT.

On the feat side for a max Necro/Enchant, TR1 human means the difference between having GSF:Enchantment/Mental Toughness or not.

Toughness
Extend
PL:Wizard
Empower
Insightful Reflexes
GSF: Necromancy 
Spell Penetration <-- TR2 can drop this. 
GSF: Enchantment/Mental Toughness <-- Only Human has enough feats.

Metas:
Maximize
SF: Necromancy 
SF: Enchantment
Heighten
Quicken

Here is a DC breakdown.

        Base Spell INT@46 SF GSF PL Item Lich Vamp Total
Nerco     10     9     18  1   1  1    2    1         43
Enchant   10     9     18  1      1    2              41
Enchant   10     9     18  1      1    2         1    42
Other     10     9     18         1    1              39

Spell Penetration:

20 Base
2 PL <- Another +2 for 2nd PL and +4 for 3rd PL. Also +1/FvS PL
2 Item <- Maybe +3 if Greater Spell Pen item.
3 Enhancement
2 SP Feat
=29
2 GSP Feat

Go read:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=302573
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=303525

[varusso]

Correct.

However +2 from spyglass will still not stack with +3 from a ToD ring because the +3 on a ring would normally consist of the inherent +1 on the ring itself plus another +2 exceptional stat crafted into it. So those two +2's would not be stacking.

You can always craft +2 to another stat or something else in the said ring and keep using the spyglass

I see...so the ring is actually +1 with an additional +2 bonus available to slot onto it? See, everyone always just says it is a +3 ring, so didnt know it was actually 2 separate bonuses they are adding together (I dont own one). This finally explains why they dont stack now