Buff Ranged Attack (archers)

[Templarion]

I know. This has been said many times. But...

U9 buffed caster classes greatly. Turbine is clearly aiming for an easy, casual friendly game. I'm not sure if I like that road but one thing is sure: Ranged* attacks need to be upgraded.

Before U9 this kind of suggestions were denied with an argument of "You cannot deal lots of damage without a risk. And attacking from a distance is safe." Well, the casters classes do exactly that and they have the best protection buffs in their hands as well (displacement, stoneskin, self-healing...). So, I guess that argument is not valid anymore.

I don't care how the ranged attacking should be buffed but it is inferior to other methods of dealing damage at the moment. Something should be done. After all, shooting with bows is a nice variation to constant sword fighting or firestorms.

Please, comment or just /sign.


(*= bows, crossbows, throwing daggers)

[Kriogen]

Casters have not been buffed. In most cases they have been nerfed. Wall of Fire was nerfed, alot, for example.

I would more call it a 'shift'.

OK, "ranged". It is "suggestion" forum, so:
- Power Attack should work with bow.
- as bow is 2hander, why doesn't it get 150% STR bonus
- Stunning blow should work with bows. I guess it would be Stunning Shot
- Sunder should work with bow
- Trip should work with bow
- ... there is a pattern here? ....

Back, to casters 'shift'. Insta-kill works in more places (less immunities in Epic) for example. It's not that casters are better then before. Just that magic now "works" in more places. So why don't all "physical" attacks works also with bows?

I think things would be much better if bow gets those special attack. Oh, no need to invent new feats. Just current. Same DC, same prereqs, same everything. Just works with bow.

Not "new" or "more". Just more fair.

[Templarion]

Casters have not been buffed. In most cases they have been nerfed.

Ok. No more bs. Please.

I think things would be much better if bow gets those special attack. Oh, no need to invent new feats. Just current. Same DC, same prereqs, same everything. Just works with bow.

Not "new" or "more". Just more fair.

As I said before, I really don't care how it should be done, but this sounds like a decent upgrade and easy to implement.

[SiliconShadow]

Casters have not been buffed. In most cases they have been nerfed. Wall of Fire was nerfed, alot, for example.

I would more call it a 'shift'.

OK, "ranged". It is "suggestion" forum, so:
- Power Attack should work with bow.
- as bow is 2hander, why doesn't it get 150% STR bonus
- Stunning blow should work with bows. I guess it would be Stunning Shot
- Sunder should work with bow
- Trip should work with bow
- ... there is a pattern here? ....

Back, to casters 'shift'. Insta-kill works in more places (less immunities in Epic) for example. It's not that casters are better then before. Just that magic now "works" in more places. So why don't all "physical" attacks works also with bows?

I think things would be much better if bow gets those special attack. Oh, no need to invent new feats. Just current. Same DC, same prereqs, same everything. Just works with bow.

Not "new" or "more". Just more fair.

Sorcerer dmg has been increased by 6 caster levels and massive everlasting spell pools by free metamagic slas, dealing thousands of damage in a second or two.

Wizards are more flexible and offer variance in thier lines in which they never had before.

Both classes can nuke from super long range now, and I mean NUKE dealing hundreds and thousands pointed of damage at barely no expensive.

They now overshadow mellee except for the fact mellee still outnumber casters.

But ranged, ranged combat is at the moment unless you have an old broken build ie the old bowbarian it is useless, and even then they have to put down thier bow on trash a lot.

Yes ranged combat needs not just a tweak it needs ripping out and putting back in with a system that works.

[andbr22]

Well last few updates S&B got some dps boost (glancing with bastards/Daxes, Shield "offhand" attacks) + bonus to survivality over other characters (with SMastery you get "% damage reduction").
THF produce Glancing blows (75% for 60% base weapon dmg).
TWF attack from offhand (80% for offhand strike).

Bow:
- is realy slow
- have poor boosts (Manyshoot is 50% dmg boost, but only when you use always when availble not counting if it rats or rednamed + point blanc shoot is 1 dmg per arrow in very small range (USELESS) + IPS extreamly situational).
- 2 controling stats (or you have troubles with hitting, or lower damage -> on epic you just cannot hit anything).

My thoughts:
- Normal attack speed (it is about 2 times as fast as now)
- Manyshoot as stance (2 arrows per attack, slower movment rate, additional -4 to attack while moving, - AC / fortification, additional threat generated (leaving stance make negative effects remain for 10 seconds)).
- Changes in ranger capstone / AA and DW sets (master of archery could boost to hit (like +4) and Damage with ranged weapon (+2), also you could consider something some capstone enchantemnt for temprest (additional d6 and 1 attack for all favorite enemies))
- Power attack / 1,5 bow dmg -> NOPE because we all know bow shouldnt be better than melee.
- Ranged tatcics - maybe for Deepwood sniper (triping shoot, stunning shoot, killing shoot) + boost for DWS dmg (like dex to xbow dmg (but not repeating ones), and don't work with mechanic bonuss)...
- Also boost for ranger -> MAKE possibility to change favorite enemies once every 3 days (at class trainer for like 10k plat at lv 20). Why? because Bards / sorcs can change spells without feat change so why to change favorite enemy rangers have to use feat change. (it also can make that some rarer favorite enemies will be used often)

[Limey]

"Manyshoot is 50% dmg boost"

What?

[Teharahma]

"Manyshoot is 50% dmg boost"

What?

Probably a player that didn't reach cap on their ranger.

[andbr22]

Nahh... this is theorethical dmg boost all the time if you use many shoot when availble, and don't waste manyshoot time.

During 100/120 of time you deal X dmg, during 20/120 of time you deal 4X dmg. When you sum it youu have 180/120 X that is 1,5 X.

And probably as you can see it it is not practical look for ranged DPS (on trash moobsmany shoot often go wase, or you keep it for more powerfull enemies so practical it is less than 50%). Situation as above is probably only availble against raid bosses that you hit at least around 120 seconds (Harry part 5, Hortoh, Sulu).

[grodon9999]

Ranged got hosed with the helplessness change. Manyshot with a lightning bow on multiple held/stunned mobs used to be a thing of beauty. With it's high crit-multiplier and lousy threat-range helpless is really where it shined.

I'm not at the point where I'm seriously considering using my Icy burst WoP bow to power a power-cell. It's that worthless, I'm extremely happy I never bothered to craft an earth-grab bow which would be utterly useless.

Ranged could be buffed big-time right now.

[Scraap]

(*= bows, crossbows, throwing daggers)

Well, since they've stated over and over again (and demonstrated with all the nastiness that's cropped up when they try and fix repeaters), pure ROF is unlikely unless they rip out the entire subsystem and recode it from scratch, or close to, so a few non ROF solutions:

Option 1:
Pure mechanics solution A
An older ballistic approach would be -1 to-hit/damage per 10-20 feet.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Relea...ate_9_Official

Ranged Sneak Attacks and Point Blank Shots have had their maximum range increased from 10 meters to a base of 15 meters. The Deepwood Sniper enhancement increases this range to 25 meters.

So something like:
Range = dmg/tohit # PBS $ DWS
10 = +5/+5 # +6/+6 $ +7/+7 <------base 5 for power attack equivalent*
15 = +4/+4 # +5/+5 $ +6/+6 <------PBS cuttoff
20 = +3/+3 # +3/+3 $ +4/+4
25 = +2/+2 # +2/+2 $ +3/+3 <------DWS cuttoff
30 = +1/+1 # +1/+1 $ +1/+1
35 = 0/0 # 0/0 $ 0/0
40 = -1/-1 # -1/-1 $ -1/-1

*Power attack trades damage for to-hit. This would trade distance ("saftey", he says as the orthon teleports right to his face) for damage and to-hit. Further DWS tiers might enhance that range to from -1 per 5 feet to -1 per 10 feet, and -1 per 15, respectively.

Option 2:
Pure mechanics solution B

Shuriken Expertise
Prereqs: Requires one of: Dexterity 13, Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Shuriken, or Half-Elf Dilettante: Monk
Benefit: You are skilled with the use of the shuriken, and have a chance to throw an additional shuriken per throw. The percent chance to throw an additional shuriken is equal to your Dexterity.
Special: Automatically granted to Drow characters at level one. Monks may select this feat at levels 1, 2, or 6 as a selected martial arts class feat.

Extend that mechanism to all ranged attacks, with ammo driven devices using the Dex modifier (so half the 'doublestrike' of a throwing weapon as a trade-off for effects adding up). At that point, up Shuriken expertise to 1.5 dex, since it's both low base, and low crit-profile, yet still counts as an exotic weapon. This one would effectively give a boost vs crit-immune mobs, but not as much of one vs DR laden ones, as DR would apply to both shots. By the same token, on-hit effects would go up, which means both damaging and debilitating effects would be more likely to proc.

Option 3:
Partial Itemization, Partial mechanics rework
It wasn't until 3.5 that they dropped stacking arrow/bolts + bow enhancements. They could always go really oldschool there, with either stacking to-hit, damage, or both depending on if they wished to emphasize Ranged Damage (helping crit confirmation) or Ranged Damage (helping base). Again, max +5. This one's mostly a plat-sink for anyone but an AA.

Option 4:
Complete Itemization solution A
Crafting presents a bit of an opportunity there for all but throwing weapons (which can be boosted via that brutal throw feat for non-dex toons, so less problematic, though that really could use a speed-up). Instead of stacking, they could sell +5 returning ammo, which leaves non AAs able to get the same to-hit with a customized +0 prefix-bow-of-suffix at a lower ML as an AA (meaning you could make a nastier ranged item if you pay-per-shot), with AAs getting extra goodies via their specialty arrows on top of that.

Option 5:
Complete Itemization solution B
Again crafting, but this time, touch, burst, and blast ammo, at sufficiently low crafting requirements that a first life new player could achieve it (say, 10,20,30 respectively.)


Could probably cook up a few more, but those are the 'generic ranged' notions that come to mind as far as PRE agnostic tweaks.

[Templarion]

<snip>
Ranged could be buffed big-time right now.

Thank you for sharing my opinion.

Well, since they've stated over and over again (and demonstrated with all the nastiness that's cropped up when they try and fix repeaters), pure ROF is unlikely unless they rip out the entire subsystem and recode it from scratch, or close to, so a few non ROF solutions:

Option 1:
<snip>

Option 2:
<snip>

Option 3:
<snip>

Option 4:
<snip>

Option 5:
<snip>

Could probably cook up a few more, but those are the 'generic ranged' notions that come to mind as far as PRE agnostic tweaks.

Good ideas. It could be fun to see ranged attacks using DEX modifier as melee attacks use STR modifier atm.

[Yokido]

Actually, ranged dps is just fine, especially after the update..
I made a thrower/shield build some time ago, with 100+ alacrity.
With a nice manyshot between throws, I think it's good dps.

[Templarion]

Actually, ranged dps is just fine, especially after the update..
I made a thrower/shield build some time ago, with 100+ alacrity.
With a nice manyshot between throws, I think it's good dps.

And what is your idea of good dps?