Good G*d Sarlona, You are still in the Dark Ages. . .

[bendover]

Of course. There isn't much reason to just stand there in front of a portal. If someone dies while your beating down a portal with your aura on, then something is wrong anyways. If you die at all during Part 1, then there is just something wrong... Regardless if your healer is focusing on healing or beating down a portal. There are times when you should be focusing on healing, and times when you should be beating something down with your little club or BBs. Agreed One hundred percent. However, sadly there are those people that someone end up with (Combat): You've been killed by Portal. O.o Don't ask... As much as there is something wrong with that, I wouldn't want them in my part anyways. So yea... I can see Nannybots receiving hate, but hey... if they keep me alive, then I don't care. If you die... sit tight in my backpack till we find a shrine. People are going to play how they want to. It is on everyone's part to be self sufficient. All in all, I don't find nothing wrong with a nannybot. If it works.. it works.. If your mad cause you can't be in a party... make your own party with your own ways of doing things. There is many ways to play this game. Everyone has their own ways, and you either live with it or move on.

But hey... if your a healer, you should realize that throwing a couple BBs down could save you SP in the long run and less healing needed. I realize some healers like to save some mana to heal and stuff, but it is often easier to toss some DPS yourself... expecting you know how to stay alive if you collect aggro. I chuckle sometimes when people suggest a healer save mana and not buff... Yea, you have more mana to begin with, but you'll be spending more mana on healing when you could of prevented half of the damage from a few buffs. So yea... there is a time when you need to sit back, but there is times in which someone should jump forward and get into the action. Like I said, I don't find anything wrong with a nannyboy, but if you want to be really efficient, then you may want to try some other things. See what works for you and what doesn't.

No need to hate on Nannybots though. If they can stay alive and keep you alive, then no worries, but when you run out of sp, don't come crying to me that you need a shrine. Some people can do it... most can't. Oh well. Whats it matter, when your a competent member of the party that can keep him/herself alive. I wouldn't call Nannybots completely useless, but it depends on the quest and the party's style of play.

Anywho.. My 2cents. :P

Free love to all! <3

It doesn't take a good player to sit there and heal someone, it does however take a good player to be able to know how to heal + dps when whichever is needed and to be sufficient at both. Healbots/nannybots just aren't good players in my opinion. I, like many others build toons to be more well rounded and can handle doing multiple roles in a group.

[Culver.Civello]

It doesn't take a good player to sit there and heal someone, it does however take a good player to be able to know how to heal + dps when whichever is needed and to be sufficient at both. Healbots/nannybots just aren't good players in my opinion. I, like many others build toons to be more well rounded and can handle doing multiple roles in a group.

Of course. ^-^ I agree 100%, but some people just aren't coordinated enough for all that. Funny story there about my mother trying to play once. But... they do what they can. Can't really blame them for that. I like people that can be a little more well rounded as well, but like I said... not everyone is going to play the same way. So... to the OP, nah.... Sarlona isn't in the dark ages of Playing, they are in the Industrial age... when many different styles of play and people... where as many others are in that Agricultural age... where only ONE way works, or people go nuts. O.o

Ok... No more Puns and such please. :P

[bendover]

Oh and the "I buff loot" lfms are absolutely ridiculous and need to go. No one cares that you decided to ruin your character in order to buff loot go reroll because you're a waste of space.

Edit: And I've only seen to notice it with people on classes that are feat starved to begin with like bards and sorcs...

[seskie1]

Oh and the "I buff loot" lfms are absolutely ridiculous and need to go. No one cares that you decided to ruin your character in order to buff loot go reroll because you're a waste of space.

Edit: And I've only seen to notice it with people on classes that are feat starved to begin with like bards and sorcs...

The only thing I like to buff is your greenis...nudge nudge wink wink

[Roman]

Yeah, we need all to TR our fighter/barbs/pallies with eSOS and eMariliths to Sorcs because that's the most effective form of killlage today.

Yeah.

Hex is hawt stop arguing with her.

[maddmatt70]

Op I do not disagree with your analysis nor am I defending the lfms, but playing a spellcaster takes more know how and has a bigger learning curve then playing a melee. I think the advantages a spellcaster has over a melee currently are diluted for newer players.

[barryman5000]

Op I do not disagree with your analysis nor am I defending the lfms, but playing a spellcaster takes more know how and has a bigger learning curve then playing a melee. I think the advantages a spellcaster has over a melee currently are diluted for newer players.

Wait til update 10 when they introduce auto-attack will cast spells for casters!

[LordPiglet]

Healbots are a waste of space.

this

(and if by chance, you want an unthinking healbot, get a f'in hireling).

Of course. ^-^ I agree 100%, but some people just aren't coordinated enough for all that. Funny story there about my mother trying to play once. But... they do what they can. Can't really blame them for that. I like people that can be a little more well rounded as well, but like I said... not everyone is going to play the same way. So... to the OP, nah.... Sarlona isn't in the dark ages of Playing, they are in the Industrial age... when many different styles of play and people... where as many others are in that Agricultural age... where only ONE way works, or people go nuts. O.o

Ok... No more Puns and such please. :P

Seriously, it's not that hard. At worst auto attack. Honestly, it's almost easier. If you're running with me, I'll tell you, mass cures are on me. If you get out of my range and aren't doing something to contribute to party success that required you to be out of range for a mass cure or heal on myself, you're probably not getting a single target heal. Seriously, outside of certain raid situations and some big fights, a good party can get a lot of healing just standing by the cleric in their aura even. My FvS burns through mana faster then my friends cleric.

[TheDearLeader]

Wait til update 10 when they introduce auto-attack will cast spells for casters!

I can see this. Are you sure this isn't part of the Grant a Wish : DDO Style Thread?

Wish: All Casters can use Auto-Attack to auto-cast their spells.

Wish granted : But, it only works by cycling through Knock, Protection from Energy (Sonic), Glitterdust, and Grease.

[barryman5000]

I can see this. Are you sure this isn't part of the Grant a Wish : DDO Style Thread?

Wish: All Casters can use Auto-Attack to auto-cast their spells.

Wish granted : But, it only works by cycling through Knock, Protection from Energy (Sonic), Glitterdust, and Grease.

lol! I forgot about that thread. I may have to necro that.

[TheDearLeader]

lol! I forgot about that thread. I may have to necro that.

No need to Necro, pretty sure the last post will be less than two days old.

Edit: *GASP* I went to search for it and.. nothing?! DELETED!?

[moops]

Op I do not disagree with your analysis nor am I defending the lfms, but playing a spellcaster takes more know how and has a bigger learning curve then playing a melee. I think the advantages a spellcaster has over a melee currently are diluted for newer players.

Hmm, I'm not sure about this--I think it's just a different kind of learning IMHO.

How many melee do we see that have no clue how to block let alone carry a shield in case they need to block for some reason?

How many actually understand attack from behind?

How many understand that the main tank is chained and to adjust their attack?

How many understand healing amp? Or DR? Let alone the finer tactics like trip ?

How many actually back off from a mob before they have 1 hitpoint left?

When to frenzy and vicious, and when its a bad idea?

When to Madstone, and when it might be a good idea not to?

How many know how to kite? Or tank HOX with just solid fog clickies?

How many experienced Melee do we see that run around with no pots of anything to use in case things go wrong? Inexperienced Casters at least can rebuff themselves and a good amount of time heal themselves.

And to bring up everyone's favorite raid to bag on, a melee without heavy fort in part 4 or 5 of the current shroud and 300 HP will prob die, where as a caster with the same situation will prob live. . .

Ive personally met more terrible melee than casters, but perhaps I am just lucky

[Wardancer420]

I think Sarlona is coming alng fine, last night on a raid, some people actually suggested that we get a wizard or bard for buffing as the Air Savant(me) is DPS. I was proud to be a Sarlonian when I heard that.

[Teen]

Hmm, I'm not sure about this--I think it's just a different kind of learning IMHO.

How many melee do we see that have no clue how to block let alone carry a shield in case they need to block for some reason?

How many actually understand attack from behind?

How many understand that the main tank is chained and to adjust their attack?

How many understand healing amp? Or DR? Let alone the finer tactics like trip ?

How many actually back off from a mob before they have 1 hitpoint left?

When to frenzy and vicious, and when its a bad idea?

When to Madstone, and when it might be a good idea not to?

How many know how to kite? Or tank HOX with just solid fog clickies?

How many experienced Melee do we see that run around with no pots of anything to use in case things go wrong? Inexperienced Casters at least can rebuff themselves and a good amount of time heal themselves.

And to bring up everyone's favorite raid to bag on, a melee without heavy fort in part 4 or 5 of the current shroud and 300 HP will prob die, where as a caster with the same situation will prob live. . .

Ive personally met more terrible melee than casters, but perhaps I am just lucky

Go meet a human caster. How many casters have no fort 300hp How many casters have no idea what epics are Have no UMD Has a 30 DC save on his danceballs, Wail of Banshee, and Hold Mass Monster? Inexperienced caster it's ALOT harder than a melee. Specially sorc

[Sarisa]

How many melee do we see that have no clue how to block let alone carry a shield in case they need to block for some reason?

Too few. I mention that if you gain aggro in VoD, to shield block Sully and you won't get cursed and you take less damage. Almost every PUG member (meaning not someone from one of the "good" guilds) tells me they don't carry a shield. Especially prevalent among pew-pew rangers.

Speaking of pew-pew rangers, I'm amazed how many of them don't understand that turning off Improved Precise Shot when mobs need to be fascinated (ie eVoN6 bases and epic Small Problem) is important.

How many actually understand attack from behind?

Few enough that if I'm in a bad mood, I'll let them die until they learn to stay back out of the cleave range.

How many understand healing amp? Or DR? Let alone the finer tactics like trip ?

Had to try to heal an absolute rock last night in Mindsunder. WF barb with about 800 HP who didn't even take Healer's Friend 1. My aura that was healing me for 31, no amp fleshies for 22, was healing him for 11. I flat out refused to heal him if he gained aggro on the trash on the final fight. The wizard in the group and my cleric handled the trash until the crystal was down, then I shield blocked and intim'ed the few remaining trash mobs since I could heal myself FAR easier than heal the barb.

And to bring up everyone's favorite raid to bag on, a melee without heavy fort in part 4 or 5 of the current shroud and 300 HP will prob die, where as a caster with the same situation will prob live. . .

Ive personally met more terrible melee than casters, but perhaps I am just lucky

Though there are a tonne of terrible casters too. My last Shroud I did on my caster, it was me and a sorc. Part 1, he followed the group and did nothing but occasionally cast a Magic Missile into the portal. I had to handle all the portal trash along with keeping rage and haste on the group. The increased cooldown of Wail makes trash clearing as a "solo caster" annoying and far more SP intensive, but still doable.

Part 2, I was on the fire ele (I'm 18/2 wiz/rogue), the sorc didn't go to the crystal when he was asked. Had to kill the bosses twice because someone's guard went off and killed Kasquick before the gnoll was prepped. I re-pulled, got fire off to the corner, and had to ask a rogue to take fire off of me so I could handle the crystal since it was obvious that the sorc would not do it.

Part 3, he randomly walked over his puzzle and did nothing else.
Part 4, he died in 1 hit the instant Harry dropped. It was still a 1-rounder because we had good DPS.

Part 5, he didn't do any buffing. I took fire to the back so that the other three lieutenants could be killed, then went to the altar. Our bard thankfully passed out any requested buffs. Harry dropped, and the sorc died instantly again. After a raise, he just sat there and didn't unload SP.

I MyDDO'ed him afterwards, and he was a level 20 sorc with 160HP. He had a Minos, so thankfully had 100% fort. Still, 160hp...140hp without Minos's Toughness.

[Kalari]

Too be honest I think I am a pretty decent caster but with the new savant lines I am learning my stuff again like many others. sure there are nice new spells that will bring raid bosses to their knees for both casters and divines but we just got them so a lot of people even us old players are still learning what we can do.

I say give it time, I went into a guild run with my favored soul the other night and spent more of my blue bar using DP and other blasting spells then healing it was a blast I hope one day pugs get to that point.

When I went back into the raid with my sorcerer it was a cake walk but I had to figure out which spells to now use it does take time. And even then you will always have hold outs who think oh no more then 1 caster and no heal bots is a wipe. Those groups will become hopefully smaller and stand out one day to.

[maddmatt70]

Hmm, I'm not sure about this--I think it's just a different kind of learning IMHO.

How many melee do we see that have no clue how to block let alone carry a shield in case they need to block for some reason?

How many actually understand attack from behind?

How many understand that the main tank is chained and to adjust their attack?

How many understand healing amp? Or DR? Let alone the finer tactics like trip ?

How many actually back off from a mob before they have 1 hitpoint left?

When to frenzy and vicious, and when its a bad idea?

When to Madstone, and when it might be a good idea not to?

How many know how to kite? Or tank HOX with just solid fog clickies?

How many experienced Melee do we see that run around with no pots of anything to use in case things go wrong? Inexperienced Casters at least can rebuff themselves and a good amount of time heal themselves.

And to bring up everyone's favorite raid to bag on, a melee without heavy fort in part 4 or 5 of the current shroud and 300 HP will prob die, where as a caster with the same situation will prob live. . .

Ive personally met more terrible melee than casters, but perhaps I am just lucky

Yes but at least a melee can swing a weapon and do 50% of the damage that a knowledgeable melee does whereas a clueclass caster might not contribute at all. I have seen plenty of casters do nothing basically...

[Chai]

Yes but at least a melee can swing a weapon and do 50% of the damage that a knowledgeable melee does whereas a clueclass caster might not contribute at all. I have seen plenty of casters do nothing basically...

Thats called piking, and is a matter of choice, and not cluelessness, lol.

Then there were those who soloed epics for the longest time, by perching and crit fishing. Nowdays your statement about the learning curve is true, but not for the longest time. Many people are just beginning to learn the class now that most of the crutches have been removed. There were no melee crutches that could be leaned on to the effect that people were soloing epics as quickly as groups could run them.

The learning curve to play a good caster may or may not be harder than playing a good melee, but it was certainly thrust apon us more recently.

[The_Great_Samulas]

Yes but at least a melee can swing a weapon and do 50% of the damage that a knowledgeable melee does whereas a clueclass caster might not contribute at all. I have seen plenty of casters do nothing basically...

I agree with this. With the added caveat that you can always ask melees about gear, etc. to get an idea of how they will perform. In addition, you now have the possibility of a nuke oriented sorceror easily pulling agro and, depending upon healer and leadership skill in the group, causing a wipe or severe resource useage to recover from the problem.

I was on my sorc last night, who I have been getting out of mothball status. I made him a water sorc. He easily pulled agro from a high end DPS group in the shroud, and he doesn't even have a belt for cold spells from amarath yet (though he does have an eardweller - I didn't have to use it to pull agro). So in more strategic raids with main tanks, you have the edge you have to walk, between not contributing noticeably in DPS and overdoing it. This line will fluctuate depending upon the DPS of the main tank, and will take considerable skill to manage. With a tank, they are right there, so the boss will just turn around making the situation more manageable than a boss mob running after the caster with his arms flailing around.

Now this is all concerning specific higher end raids, in elite quests and the shroud who cares. You can solo that stuff anyways, not shroud. In epics, you can have some of the same issues you have leveling up with squishy casters who don't know how to manage agro.


As far as groups taking excessively long periods of time to fill, I think this is more an issue with the leader not being knowledgeable about the particular quest and following a strat they saw someone else use, rather than not being aware of U9 changes. Basically, most leaders are not capable of adjusting strategy, they merely follow the known course. There is also the issue of groups sitting around forever to form, because 1) everyone knows the leader is an @ss, 2) everyone knows the leader is not good, or 3) there is a person in the raid most people won't group with. Opening up the group will help some, but it won't help the classic instance of waiting for a healer, when everyone knows the group will just be bad. While, I agree with your supposition that casters can now fill DPS spots, with the important asides I've mentioned, finding DPS is not a concern even remotely as frequent as the three above.

[rdasca]

I love moops shroud runs, if I'm on my wizard it is blast and go, if I am on my FvS then it is blast, heal and go, and if by some luck I get in one of her groups on my Ranger it is swing and run to keep up.

I loved the last shroud I was in with her; her LFM said BYOB, fast shroud run, or something like that, and one of the monks kept asking for this or that buff, you could feel the heat through the headset as moops temp went higher and higher.

For the most part moops is right, most raids or quest only require that you have half way decent players the makeup of the party is really secondary. I am not saying that everyone should run out and do hound without a healer, or run epic DQ without a meatshield or two, or whatever your favorite party makeup is but that groups like 1 arcane, 2 healers, 1 bard, and 8 dps are not needed for a good shroud run.