Robes VS Armor

[Alektronic]

It's a d20 system. So, 60 is a magic number (miss 95% in GH), so -20 means anything over 40 AC counts. An AC of 30, unfortunately, is not much better than an AC of 10.

For the most part, if armor won't let you hit >50, robes are good for the extra effects you can get on them, and you can switch them out pretty fast (for multiple useable effects). If you have the Reaver's Refuge pack, this is a good time to look into getting some dragontouched robes/outfit. If not, here are some things that might help on some robes:
deathblock
fortification (if not on an item)
greater fire/ice/acid/electricity resist
haste/rage/fog/... clickies
hammer/spear/axeblock
"shadow" (for stealth builds)
command
....
The list goes on. Basically, robes can fill what you don't have in your equipment. Remember to throw that armor back on when/if you're doing favor runs tho.

I only mentioned midgame content. To add to this, 80 is the magic number for elite Amrath, meaning 60+ AC gets some mileage in "endgame" content. Epics START at 90+ AC to get some misses. I assume the magic number is 110AC for epic small guys, but never had/played with a character with such a high AC.

[Cardtrick]

Every tiny bit of AC will, in theory, reduce the amount of times you get hit. But, unless you drop the numbers down to 1 in 20 or someplace close to that then it is all just a wasted effort.

Please don't listen to this. Both sentences are incorrect.

First, no, increasing your AC marginally will not necessarily reduce the amount of times you get hit. DDO uses a D20 system, which means that enemy attacks roll from 1 to 20, plus some bonus. If the result of that exceeds your AC -- or if they roll a natural 20 -- they hit you. If their attack roll is less than or equal to your AC, or they roll a natural 1, they miss you.

That means that for any given enemy, there is an 18 point range of useful ACs. Anything above that range means you'll only be hit on a 20, anything below means you'll only be hit on a 1.

If you're facing an enemy with an attack bonus of 39, their rolls will all be from 40 - 59. If your AC is 30, then they will hit on everything but a 1 -- that is, 95% of the time. Even if you increase your AC by a tiny amount, you will not reduce the amount of times you get hit. An AC of 30, 31, 32, 33, etc. will all still have you hit 95% of the time. You wouldn't get any reduction in the number of hits until you get your AC to 41, at which point they would miss if they rolled a 2, so you'd only be hit 90% of the time.

By the same token, if your AC was 60 while facing the same enemy, you'd only be hit when they roll a 20, so you'd be hit 5% of the time. Even if you increased your AC a bit, you'd still be hit 5% of the time.

So, no -- adding a tiny bit of AC will not help you a tiny bit. It will help you not at all unless you can get to a useful range.

But, unless you drop the numbers down to 1 in 20 or someplace close to that then it is all just a wasted effort.

This is also incorrect. Too many people half-understand, or at least have heard things from others that lead them to think they understand, the first part of this -- that AC is not useful unless it's within the range of the enemy's to-hit bonus.

They then generalize this to think that AC is not useful at all. I certainly used to. I read the forums a lot when making my first few characters, and took this attitude too much to heart. It's true that there's a big struggle, which is likely not worth it, to get useful AC at endgame for most character types. But it's not at all true that AC is useless. If you can get to the point where enemies are missing on a 10 or below, you're cutting down on half of your incoming damage. Half! (Actually, somewhat more than that if you don't have heavy fortification, since this also means that fewer critical hits will be confirmed against you.) And what's more, it's a fully stacking type of miss -- you can use it right along with blur/displacement/concealment.

Any character with money can get a useful enough AC at low levels to be missed virtually all the time -- just swig a Shield of Faith +3 and Barkskin +3 potion, and that's +6 points right there. Haste pots give an additional stacking +1. Those potions, plus some basic armor, can carry most characters through the low levels while needing virtually no healing. It's amazing how much easier and less expensive soloing low level quests has become for me since I realized this.

I think nearly every character -- arcanes are debatable, but everything else -- should try to have a useful AC up through levels 9 or 10. It's easy, and it makes the early levels a breeze.

You never really answered my question though... So will the AC of 32 drop me down to being hit only 12 out of 20 times? Because, yes, that does sound useful since i sort of already have the magic stuff that would be on the robes I can wear for now.

But you're getting to the point now where things get tough for most character builds if you want to maintain workable AC. Your 32 AC is likely still within the range of most enemies you'll be fighting, but at the low end. That means it's in the range where increasing it will still help you avoid more hits, for a while.

I know for a fact that some enemies will still be missing you on lowish rolls in Gianthold quests on Normal. They'll be hitting on a 2, though, on Hard or above. I've been leveling up a warforged favored soul, and he's getting into Gianthold now. Most of my AC depends on buffs, so it can vary easily from the high 20s to the high 30s. When I'm in the high 30s, I'm being missed on normal Gianthold quests more often than not, but enemies are still hitting enough that they clearly don't need to be rolling 20s anymore.

I would suggest that you try to push your AC a bit more, while you're still in Gianthold, Lordsmarch Plaza quests, and the Vale -- ACs in the high 30s to low 40s will be useful against many (but certainly not all) enemies, and will reduce your incoming damage. If you can get something with +2 dodge (likely Chaosgardes or the new Tharaak bracers), along with a +4 or +5 mithral plate, you should be able to get to that useful range.

But once you start running those quests on hard or elite, or once you move past them, you'll be at a point where a usable AC is only attainable by characters that really build and gear for it (and dex/wis monks, who have an easier time than most). But that's offset by the fact that you'll be able to use items with other effects to make up for it -- displacement clickies from Shroud, Dragontouched robes with useful disabling effects, etc. I would say that once you're at level 16 you should pretty much give up on AC and focus on the effects that can be provided by your armor. That's probably going to mean Dragontouched, at least until level 20, when one of the epic items might be more appealing for you. My rogue uses a set of +5 resist/+20% healing amp/air guard DTs (until I can finally get my Radiance sovereign rune).

If you aren't ready to do the dragontouched grind, or decide to ditch AC earlier, a sort of "poor man's" dragontouched is available in the form of the ML 12 Crimson Chain -- it gives you +5 reflex save and air guard (alternately hastes you and knocks down enemies). That's a good chunk of what I get from the Dragontouched I've been using very happily at endgame for months, and it's available much earlier.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, and if you do decide to keep up your AC for a while, don't forget to put an alchemical ritual on your armor -- that's an additional stacking +1 to AC that's quite easy to get. (It's the cheapest/easiest of the Eldritch rituals -- just takes prayer beads and pure water, which are both quite cheap compared to some of the other eldritich crafting collectables.)

[Therigar]

Please don't listen to this.

Where to begin.

My statements reflect the reality of DDO.

If, by changing to mithral breastplate, AC moves to 32 for a L13 rogue is that enough of a shift to make the plat investment worthwhile?

In theory every little shift upward matters. Your own post reflects this when you talk about a +6 AC boost from Shield of Faith and Barkskin potions.

The only way you move your AC into the hit range of monsters is by tacking on each and every +1 that you can get. So, in theory, every shift upwards does matter.

What you are talking about is the practical side of things which is what I've already discussed -- that there is no real difference between a 28 AC and a 32 AC so the plat investment into mithral breastplates isn't really worth it.

What you've explained is the reason why the investment isn't worth making -- because neither number gets you reliably above the lowest to-hit number.

I've tried to explain that the only compensation for this condition is high HP and reliable healing. That is just the reality of DDO. We often talk about being self sufficient but it doesn't work once you hit levels like the OP has reached. A player simply cannot keep themselves healed fast enough to overcome the damage they are taking unless they are a healing class themself (or arcane class in the case of WF).

DDO, maybe intentionally and maybe not, does not reward players who try to find a balance between AC and HP/killing speed. I group HP and killing speed together because if you can kill the mob before you run out of HP then you win.

That is done either by having AC so high that you are only hit on rare occassions -- in which case you can afford to kill the mobs relatively slowly -- or by having so many HP and killing so fast that the damage you take doesn't matter. The problem with the HP/killing speed method is that most people don't kill fast enough. So they require a dedicated healer (sometimes individually, but usually for the group).

Pretending that AC matters in any situation other than hit only on 20 is what leads people to sacrifice STR and CON. When they find they can't get to the 95% miss AC their lack of damage (STR) and HP (CON) means they die. And the AC investment was not worth it for them.

OP specifically indicates that they have a STR focused build. The best AC advice is exactly what I've given: mithral breastplate if you really want more, but really it isn't worth the plat investment (which instead should go into more STR and more HP).

This is a path choice OP made long ago. They are asking about AC because they have figured out they aren't as tough as they thought they would be and making that STR build choice isn't looking so smart any more.

The best answer is to tough it out and get the STR and CON/HP items to get to the HP/killing speed that the build aimed for. AC wasn't a build thought at creation so it shouldn't become one now.

Of course, it is possible the entire build is borked up and it just totally sucks. In that case it is live and learn, go reroll.

Some builds, Exploiter is an example, blend the AC with the HP/killing speed and do a decent job of it. But most builds are one or the other. And people who try to balance the two generally fail. The result is a build that doesn't do well -- something that becomes more and more obvious as the levels increase.

OP is at L13 and has problems. It will only get worse at L15, L17, L20. The solution is to get the gear to boost killing speed and HP -- the things the character was designed to do. Don't waste plat trying to fix AC which is never going to be high enough to matter in any case.

[ThePrincipal]

for ac you will need to get multiple types of stacking ac... pally aura, bard songs, deflection, natural, dodge, insight, shield, armor, dex mod, wis mod, haste, ritual, stance, CE, ship buffs... so the secret to ac is getting a little of everything rather than a lot from one or two sources. a fighter that relies on plate and shield will soon realize that it becomes useless around lvl 13 without other ac types.

base is 10
dragontouched or greensteel has the +4 insight
there are multiple sources dodge bonuses usually +2
natural is +5
deflection is +5
armor is at least +8
dex... should max whatever armor allows. at least +10 for a rogue.
you can take the CE and dodge feats for +6 total
shield spell/clickie +4
ship buff +2
ritual +1
haste +1

58 self buffed. More two weapon defense, moar dex, pally aura, bard ac song... you're talking 70+

[MindCake]

This is a path choice OP made long ago. They are asking about AC because they have figured out they aren't as tough as they thought they would be and making that STR build choice isn't looking so smart any more.

[...]

OP is at L13 and has problems.

Where are you getting that???
No seriously.

The OP didn't say anything even _remotely_ close.
You seem to be convinced the question was: "Halp! My STR thingy is gimp with no AC, what do I do?".

I didn't notice that. Actually, I noticed something along the lines of "I have +5 chainshirt, ring of protection, barkskin, over 21 DEX, and I'm wondering when my AC is going to stop working, because I heard it stops working at some point... right?", which is like, the opposite.

IMO, you (Therigar) need to stop projecting your fear, rage, past failures and dissapointments onto the thread starter.

[Thaxlsillyia]

for ac you will need to get multiple types of stacking ac... pally aura, bard songs, deflection, natural, dodge, insight, shield, armor, dex mod, wis mod, haste, ritual, stance, CE, ship buffs... so the secret to ac is getting a little of everything rather than a lot from one or two sources. a fighter that relies on plate and shield will soon realize that it becomes useless around lvl 13 without other ac types.

base is 10
dragontouched or greensteel has the +4 insight
there are multiple sources dodge bonuses usually +2
natural is +5
deflection is +5
armor is at least +8
dex... should max whatever armor allows. at least +10 for a rogue.
you can take the CE and dodge feats for +6 total
shield spell/clickie +4
ship buff +2
ritual +1
haste +1

58 self buffed. More two weapon defense, moar dex, pally aura, bard ac song... you're talking 70+

nice breakdown of possible sources of AC. But not everything is possible in a rogue.

IMO CE and dodge feat should be listed for the sake of listing. No pure rogue will have the spare feats to take them.

There are several levels of AC:
1. AC-don't care,
2. Normal trash mob ac
3. amrath ac
4. raid boss ac

I went for option 1. my unbuffed AC stands in the mid 40s and serves me well when i run lower-mid lvl raids for completions. i could umd a shield wand, put on my chaosgarde and chattering ring for another 9. drinking a few pots, defensive stance, putting an alchemical AC bonus on armor and making a GS AC item will push it close to 60 at which point it will be at best an OK trash mob AC at level 20. But it just took up some valuable gear slots away from me.

I would not recommend dropping AC from the start. AC increases relatively proportionately with the "to hit" of monsters till about 13-14. But beyond that you need to swap in very specific gear to be able to increase your AC. At higher levels your HP, damage mitigation and aggro management will play a greater role than AC.

But coming back to the OPs real question - "my AC seems to matter less as I level up. So should I wear robes instead of armor? and what robe should i wear? To be more precise will invulnerability be a good effect on a robe?"

My 2 coppers: Wear what ever gives you the best AC with least slots use. There are also some nice named light armors around. My preference would be to go for armor over robe. Th crimson chain that was recommended previously is awesome. The crystal cove event armor was a great option too with its +4 dodge and 12 dext bonus limit. If you do decide to use robes you might need to get an armored bracer. The icy raiment from the sub will be a good choice but very hard to get. A well customized dragon touched armor/robe will be a great choice later.

As for invulnerability, I feel the majority of damage comes from weapon sources than magical source. I had a deathblock of heavy fort on my rogue for a long time ( inspite of the ugly green color).

Pit falls to avoid as a pure rogue - Combat expertice, dodge feat, 2 weapon defense feat

[Dirichlet]

Just thought I'd point out that you can get the same AC from cloth anyway, with that +Dex item you've got. 15 base + 2 Tome + 3 Rogue + 6 item puts you at 26 (+8) Dex. A +5 Mithril Breastplate gives you 15 AC since it caps your Dex bonus to +5. At level 13 you can get as high as +7 bracers (which you've got about as much chance at getting off the AH as you have a +5 Mithril Breastplate), which gives you the same +15 with your Dex. Add in all the goodies like Deathblock and there's no reason to wear a rust suit instead of a summer dress.

Not that I believe your AC will reach a worthwhile figure either way mind you.

[Rydin_Dirtay]

This whole debate is silly. OP, at your level and your build, forget AC, go to good robes and focus on DPS. Aggro control and teammates are your new AC.

[qwert_yuiop]

this Whole Debate Is Silly. Op, At Your Level And Your Build, Forget Ac, Go To Good Robes And Focus On Dps. Aggro Control And Teammates Are Your New Ac.

+1

[NaturalHazard]

Thank you to most...
The dragontouched robes look sweet, but I am only level 13, not really ready for that quest chain. Something to aim for though. For now the Crimson Chain looks like a good thing to look for.

As for the "my character is gimp" reply that ticked me off, I am not completely clueless:

I did go Str build, with dual khopeshes - love it so much more than a finesse build I tried before. At high levels might not make much of a difference (think I read about 4 damage from str, another 2 damage from having khopeshes) but it made the low levels so much more bearable.

Starting Con of 15, Con +6, +1 ap (human)=22 (I am VIP, waiting for the tp to buy a con+2 tome)
Imp false life, toughness, three ap inhancements: Puts me at about 240 hp (cant log on now to check)

I have heavy fort from nightforge necklace and deathblock from silver flame (same slot though, so I have to switch out, a robe with both that would open up the necklace spot would be nice).

I think I can count the number of times I have died at most on two hands. I am by no means a great player, or super knowledgeable, but not gimp, I am rarely in a backpack, and dont need to curl up in a little ball and wait for the big, bad L33T player to save me.

So to Therigar, dont assume someone is clueless just because they are looking for help, and no need to be condescending. You actually started off with something semi-usefull:


You never really answered my question though... So will the AC of 32 drop me down to being hit only 12 out of 20 times? Because, yes, that does sound useful since i sort of already have the magic stuff that would be on the robes I can wear for now.

what have you got in your helm slot? you should prob go for the minos legens you get heavy fort and toughness 20 more hp.

[qwert_yuiop]

You never really answered my question though... So will the AC of 32 drop me down to being hit only 12 out of 20 times? Because, yes, that does sound useful since i sort of already have the magic stuff that would be on the robes I can wear for now.

Long story short it might save you 30% of the times now, but a couple lvls later any AC reached on toon not dedicated to increasing AC vis feats and very rare items (looking at you chattering ring) will be useless. Don't worry abt ac now. its time to increase your hp and get mad stoned. rargh!
High lvls survival for a rogues is more about HP, HP, HP, damage mitigation and healing through 99% of the times. Oh and did I tell you that HP is important?

Also highly recommended- getting a pet barbarian with 700+ hp that talks abt its dweps

[Therigar]

Where are you getting that???

From years of reading these forums and seeing people post about how to boost AC and then finding out the real story behind the initial post. If I'm wrong OP can post for themself.

But, DDO characters almost always fall into one of two groups -- those that build for AC and sacrifice damage and those that build for damage and sacrifice AC. With very few exceptions it isn't possible to have both on the same character (although it is easy to have neither).

When a player states they built for STR and have AC issues it almost always means that they are built for damage. That means they are not built for AC and never were.

My replies are along this line:

1) You can improve AC by moving from chain shirt to breastplate (mithral).
2) Because you are not built for AC the improvement really isn't worth the plat investment.
3) Instead invest in STR (staying on target with original build goals) and CON.

Regarding motive for asking about AC -- people who follow STR build templates invariably get to a place where they are second guessing their choice. That is because STR builds require a lot of gear to really work and that gear is not just sitting around in random loot. The build posts give the false impression about how powerful the character is/will be because the gear is figured into the presentation. It is the gear and buffs that make the character.

When a player realizes they don't have those things they start to loose faith in the build and start looking for other ways to increase viability and survivability.

I know this because I've been reading these forums for a long time.

Now, my advice is intended to cause OP to suck it up and realize he doesn't have good AC and never will so he needs to focus in on what his build is supposed to be doing to start with -- STR = high damage. So don't waste the time on 3 or 4 points of AC. Go with gusto towards higher STR and CON/HP so they meet the build's initial goals.

Others are saying the same thing. Check out this post and this one for what is essentially the same advice.

[xveganrox]

If you're still considering going with armor, the new Parasitic Breastplate might be a nice choice. Assuming you have a dex of 23 (26 with enhancements), you'll be able to use your full +8 dexterity bonus to AC while also getting its +10 armor and +3 stacking natural armor bonuses. I'm currently running a STR based rogue myself, and with party buffs, Chaosgarde, Chattering Ring, Parasitic Breastplate, and full party buffs I'm able to reach an AC in the mid-60s (at level 18) which gives most enemies a substantial miss chance. Definitely look into getting at least Chaosgarde, and a Wand of Shield (10th level) is an excellent choice as well - a 10 minute boost of +4 shield bonus to AC (and immunity to magic missiles to boot!) can be very helpful. Obviously you're going to want a ring of deflection +5 as well, and potions of barkskin if you aren't partying with a ranger.

As has been stated above, Combat Expertise and Dodge would likely be inefficient feat use. It goes without saying that the Rogue Subtle Backstabbing enhancement line should be central to your build, as the less aggro you generate the less necessary a high AC is.

[Standal]

So I am a level 13 rogue, with just enough dex for TWF. My AC has consisted of a chain shirt +5 and that is it. I just got a ring of protection +5 (20k in the AH ), and dex +6 boots, and there are barkskin potions, which can increase my AC a little, but at what point is the AC required to not be hit with some regularity going to be unattainable for me? When should I switch to robes? Which robes should I wear? The only robes that look really interesting to me are the deathblock + invulnerability robes, but I am not sure what enemies can overcome magic DR. Are there better robes to look for?

Thanks.

Edit: Reading the below posts, I wasnt very clear (or misread those posts). I know i cant hit an AC of 60, I am trying to limit my agro anywise as a rogue to keep SA up. I know that meaningful AC can be easily made at low levels, and that high levels I wont be able to get a meaningful AC (60). But when is that switch? And if I give up on AC, what do I do with the body slot?

To get back to the OP, I generally just dump AC from the get go. If I see anything that I like on an armor/robe/docent I use it. I generally run heavy melee toons, so I'm looking for useful guards, protections, and DR. As a rogue, I'd recommend deathblock of some DR or elemental resistance.

Crimson chain has been mentioned. I like that armor, but not for a rogue. If you avoid aggro like you hope to, the guard will never go off. I don't like wearing an armor that I'm trying to defeat.