Turbine please block Divine Punishment in PVP

[heyytoi]

If an opponent can manage to land a single spell with a 10 second cooldown on you 3 times in a row, then they deserve to kill you. If you have a serious problem killing a FvS within 20-ish seconds, then your problem might be FvS wings and not Divine Punishment. Since wings are the most fun thing about the FvS class, I'd really hate to see them lose that in the PvP pits. Wings are not a problem in PvP since it slows you down. And by that i mean you can't heal while flying, you can't attack.. all you can do is fly. And while your flying i have plenty of time to cast spells on you. So really wings aren't a problem here.

Also, I have little faith that changes made to the spell would only take place in the PvP pits, so I would prefer no changes to the spell itself - either inside the pits or outside. I would be disappopinted if the spell were turned off in PvP, but I would be disgusted to see the spell changed because of PvP. Changing the spell for pvp would be a bad idea, blocking it otherwise would be great.

Finally, I think that it's wrong for *ANY* class ability or spell to be disabled in PvP. I don't ask you to promise not to hit below the belt when you go into a bar fight. Why should your character be crippled in an area of DDO just because someone else can't beat you in a fight? So your saying that we should be allowed to use FW/BB in the pits?? Thats pure madness.

You say that it's not fair for Divine Punishment to work the way that it does in PvP. I say that it's not fair for all of the other spells and abilities that were turned off to NOT work in PvP.

Therigar came up with the only reason to turn off spells/abilities that I think is reasonable and that's just to make sure that PvP doesn't negatively impact PvE play by creating too much lag.

sigh.

[fluffybunnywilson]

So your saying that we should be allowed to use FW/BB in the pits?? Thats pure madness.

Yep. Everything that doesn't actively hurt the PvE experience by adding significant lag to PvE players should be allowed.

It wouldn't be balanced, but that's okay. DDO already isn't balanced and it wouldn't be any *less* balanced if everything were allowed. It would just be unbalanced in a slightly different direction.

If people want PvP, then they should get PvP, not [83% of one P] vs. [74% of another P].

Either man up and fight with what you've got or get out of the pit. This is Sparta. Or Argonessen. Or Khyber. Or something...

[pie2655]

1. Yes i do PVP quite often
2. No i dont play a divine
3. Nope, i play a wizard in PVP usally.

Even though i play a wizard i really dislike DP. Its unfair as is and as ive said before really should go away on the casters death. Many time i killed the cleric/FVS and then i die from DP.
Also i agree with you Aluecian if people dont PVP regularly then their opinions on this subject arent as educated, and many times are incorrect.

[Habreno]

As I had said earlier, Divine Punishment can use a PvP "debuff" as it is admittedly OP. Even though a single stack cannot always kill a melee outright, a double stack almost invariably will. Let's once again do the math:

+40% from AP
+50% from Superior Potency VII on Epic Ornamented Dagger
+100% from Maximize
Crits:
2.5X multiplier from AP and Arcane Lore on Epic Ornamented Dagger
15% critical chance from AP and Arcane Lore on Epic Ornamented Dagger

1d6+CL is base damage
CL is 22 (Radiant Servant II, if I recall, affects healing/light spells. Will check this and do math with CL 20 and CL 22)

Damage: 23-28 base
X1.4 for APs = 32.2-39.2
X1.5 Superior Potency VII = 48.3-58.8
X2 Maximized = 96.6 (rounds to 97) - 117.6 (rounds to 118)
Average is 107.16666... times 8 ticks for 857.3333.... damage average. Excluding critical hits.

At 15% critical chance you have a crit once every 6.6666... casts (rounded to 7) for 2.5x damage. Criticals on casts range between 242.5 (rounds to 243) and 295 for a significant impact. Average is 268.3333... and with one crit, the average damage on a single stack is 1018.5 damage. With a single stack, and only one crit. Two crits means average damage per stack of 1182.6666... with a single stack. Sorry, but you can't heal through that much damage without Quicken. PM's can't inflict negative energy that fast, WF have difficult times repairing themselves quickly enough. On a single stack.

Albeit my numbers may account for extremes in certain values. But even at CL 20 (and I'm wrong about the Radiant Servant II caster levels and they do not affect light spells as well as healing spells) you have the following:

Damage: 21-26 base (CL 20)
X1.4 for APs = 29.4-36.4
X1.5 Superior Potency VII = 44.1-54.6
X2 Maximized = 88.2 (rounds to 88) - 109.2 (rounds to 109)
Average is 98.6666... with a full stack running 789.3333... damage without crits.

Critical average is between 220 and 272.5 (rounds to 273) for an average of 247 on crits.
Single stack with one crit: Average damage is 937.6666... with one crit in the stack and 1086 on a double crit stack.


Now you're asking why I bring the numbers up. You can double and triple those if your target survives. Max crits near 900 damage at once won't be uncommon. And this is assuming your target even survives long enough to reach that triple stack. Even if I am mistaken with RS II you can still see crits over 800 points.


I am all for a nerf in PvP but fear it may not do enough. And I am a LEVEL 20 CLERIC who does the occasional PvP and know how the spell works. I have cast it enough.


And AS LONG AS THE NERF DOES NOT AFFECT PvE, I am /signed on the nerf in PvP.



Think I may make another post later with unaffected numbers from smiting lines... maybe.

[fluffybunnywilson]

I don't have to run a Cleric up to cap to know that a single Cleric can solo heal a Shroud.
I don't have to run a Bard up to cap to know that sending someone with evasion to base 1 and following them with a Bard that's ready to fascinate the elementals is an easy way to take care of that base in eVoN6.
I don't have to run a Paladin up to cap to know that I don't have to ask a Paladin if they have DR breakers before letting them into a Shroud/VoD/ToD/ADQ (not that I ask people if they have DR breakers anyway).
I don't need to run a Wizard up to cap to know that Mind Fog + Mass Charm or Mass Hold are handy for some enemies and that Solid Fog + Web are handy for other enemies (and to know which enemies are which).

And I don't need to spend hours in the PvP pits to have an opinion on the fairness of PvP as it stands in DDO today. Your complaint centers entirely on the premise that Divine Punishment is an unfair advantage for Favored Souls (and Clerics, I'm assuming). My assertion is that balance in PvP is irrelevant because player skill > gear > build for both PvP and PvE and that there are many characters who couldn't survive more than a moment or two in the pits even if DP were outlawed in PvP.

Should we be balancing PvP to ensure that every Cleric 6/FvS 7/Sorc 7 can hold his head high because of his many triumphs in PvP? I say no. I say that you should strive to be the top of the heap based on what you can do with your characters. Not based on what you can do with *part* of your characters because too many people complained that one ability or another is too powerful for them to cope with.

[protokon]

as far as balancing goes:
-1 on 1 in the lobster will never be balanced. different classes have different strengths and abilities - casters can do an extreme amount of elemental damage in short duration, but have limited healing. melees are even more limited on healing, and are generally limited on the range of attacks (except for arcane archers). The strength of divines is the raw healing power they have at their disposal to keep themselves alive, while having poweful offensive spells that cannot be migitated by any kind of defense - with the exception of spell absorption, of course.

divine punishment, when stacked twice, is enough to kill most people because of how often the spell ticks damage (once every 2 seconds) and is near impossible to heal through, even as a divine spamming heals. I still believe there are only two solutions to make it fair:
-dont let it stack on other players. one cast does significant damage without being so overpowered it kills people by itself.
-kill the spell when the original caster dies. this keeps people from griefing other players by spamming it

then there is also the removal of the spell entirely. which seems like the simplest and easiest solution to the problem. divines still have a plethora of offensive spells at their disposal and are still extremely formidable, if not the best class in pvp.

[Habreno]

*snip*

divine punishment, when stacked twice, is enough to kill most people because of how often the spell ticks damage (once every 2 seconds) and is near impossible to heal through, even as a divine spamming heals. I still believe there are only two solutions to make it fair:
-dont let it stack on other players. one cast does significant damage without being so overpowered it kills people by itself.
-kill the spell when the original caster dies. this keeps people from griefing other players by spamming it

*snip*

/signed on both. See above math for how OP that spell can be.

*snip*

then there is also the removal of the spell entirely. which seems like the simplest and easiest solution to the problem. divines still have a plethora of offensive spells at their disposal and are still extremely formidable, if not the best class in pvp.

May be easiest, and sadly probably what they will go with, but we do not have *that* many good spells to work with. We divines usually heal your damage out and peck you down slowly, without the spell. While you may be seeing FvS with full specs in light hitting 300+ on Searing Light, it's probably a maxed crit with Maximize, Empower, and full AP with Superior Brilliance III potions/clicky. That's not common, usually it hits around 100.

[Yajerman01]

I don't have to run a Cleric up to cap to know that a single Cleric can solo heal a Shroud.
I don't have to run a Bard up to cap to know that sending someone with evasion to base 1 and following them with a Bard that's ready to fascinate the elementals is an easy way to take care of that base in eVoN6.
I don't have to run a Paladin up to cap to know that I don't have to ask a Paladin if they have DR breakers before letting them into a Shroud/VoD/ToD/ADQ (not that I ask people if they have DR breakers anyway).
I don't need to run a Wizard up to cap to know that Mind Fog + Mass Charm or Mass Hold are handy for some enemies and that Solid Fog + Web are handy for other enemies (and to know which enemies are which).

And I don't need to spend hours in the PvP pits to have an opinion on the fairness of PvP as it stands in DDO today. Your complaint centers entirely on the premise that Divine Punishment is an unfair advantage for Favored Souls (and Clerics, I'm assuming). My assertion is that balance in PvP is irrelevant because player skill > gear > build for both PvP and PvE and that there are many characters who couldn't survive more than a moment or two in the pits even if DP were outlawed in PvP. DP is a deal breaker it changes your concept of skill>gear>build - it makes Build>skill>gear. ANd yes you do need to know how spells effect the outcome in PVP and what classes are better able to withstand certain spells how saves adversley effect responses and how trip and stun are only effective and dependant on the opposing parties builds. Divine punishment is not unfair - its absurdity at a premium.



Should we be balancing PvP to ensure that every Cleric 6/FvS 7/Sorc 7 can hold his head high because of his many triumphs in PvP? I say no. I say that you should strive to be the top of the heap based on what you can do with your characters With DP you dont have to strive for anything. Not based on what you can do with *part* of your characters because too many people complained that one ability or another is too powerful for them to cope with. DP is too powerful for any class to cope with including FVS and CLerics

This argument is not about balancing PVP it is about keeping what little balance there was.

[fluffybunnywilson]

This argument is not about balancing PVP it is about keeping what little balance there was.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that this argument is about whether Turbine should remove Divine Power from PvP.

Balancing PvP or keeping what little balance there is in PvP is a different topic and I believe that you and I have different opinions on how "balance" should look in PvP.

[fluffybunnywilson]

As I had said earlier, Divine Punishment can use a PvP "debuff" as it is admittedly OP. Even though a single stack cannot always kill a melee outright, a double stack almost invariably will. Let's once again do the math:

A single Polar Ray from a moderately geared Wizard or Sorcerer will kill 90%+ of the characters on most servers even if the target has a full Protection from Cold + Resist Energy: Cold + Fire Shield: Hot.

And Polar Ray does it in a single tick.

[heyytoi]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that this argument is about whether Turbine should remove Divine Power from PvP.

Balancing PvP or keeping what little balance there is in PvP is a different topic and I believe that you and I have different opinions on how "balance" should look in PvP.

I didn't know that Divine Power was causing unblockable damage over time and that it should be removed in the pvp pits because it ruins the game experience?

A single Polar Ray from a moderately geared Wizard or Sorcerer will kill 90%+ of the characters on most servers even if the target has a full Protection from Cold + Resist Energy: Cold + Fire Shield: Hot.

And Polar Ray does it in a single tick.

Polar ray can be dodged. You can't dodge Divine Punishement.

[Yajerman01]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that this argument is about whether Turbine should remove Divine Power from PvP.

Balancing PvP or keeping what little balance there is in PvP is a different topic and I believe that you and I have different opinions on how "balance" should look in PvP.

I am the OP, im sure i Know what im talking about. Blocking DP in the PVP area will keep what little balance we had.

[protokon]

A single Polar Ray from a moderately geared Wizard or Sorcerer will kill 90%+ of the characters on most servers even if the target has a full Protection from Cold + Resist Energy: Cold + Fire Shield: Hot.

And Polar Ray does it in a single tick.

funny, my cleric has all those things and polar ray only tickles him.

all elemental damage can be migitated to the point where it will no longer 1-shot people, even meteor swarm which is a combination of bludgeon + fire damage can be made survivable.

there is nothing that will save you from DP, especially once its cast.

[protokon]

You absolutely are the Original Poster, but if you go back and read the Original Post that created this thread, it is about the removal of a single spell. Now, you assert that blocking DP will bring balance to the Force, but I disagree.

/end of derail

[pie2655]

Honestly DP is much worse than Power Word: X. Because it is unblockable, i am all for any way to *cough* nerf *cough* it in PVP

[fluffybunnywilson]

People who actually PVP have cardinal knowledge of how detrimental DP is as a whole in the PVP arena. You fail to ackowledge this.

I absolutely acknowledge that people who spend 7 hours per week or more (your requirements for posting in this thread if I recall correctly) have direct knowledge of how DP is detrimental to the way that they want to play PvP.

That doesn't mean that the way that you (or they) want to play PvP is the "correct" way to play PvP. There are other balances that can (and I think *should*) be struck in order to make PvP "better". I absolutely acknowledge that my idea of "better" does not match your idea of "better". I am disappointed that you refuse to accept that I can have different goals for PvP and still have a valid point of view, but I am not at all surprised by that.

therefore, there is nothing else to discuss with you because you are not objective about this whatsoever. I refuse to continue down this path of futility with you.

I never claimed to be objective about this. I reject the entire premise upon which your argument is based. You want PvP to be balanced. I don't. I want PvP to be a reflection of what classes in DDO can do. The classes in DDO are not tweaked for balance based on what they can do to each other. They are balanced based on what they can do to opponents in PvE DDO. I think that is entirely right and justified and correct.

EDIT. However I do appreciate you keeping this post alive for more people to review. I think there was some sound arguments on both sides but ultimately people who PVP will generally concur with the OP. DP needs to be mitigated for PVP ONLY or if that requires too much coding then blocking it like they do other spells would be the direction of choice.

In the end NO ONE CLASS can handle/heal/mitigate or work through Divine Punishment making this spell one of the most overly powered spells int he PVP arena.

If you change that last line to "NO ONE CLASS has yet figured out how to handle/heal/mitigate or work through Divine Punishment" then I would agree with you 100%. And I think that neither your last line, nor my suggested change to your last line is actually a problem.

[PeWBOOMPeW]

Heh, me and soulo were bored one night. We spent awhile figuring out the MAX possible for DP.
It's a bit scary...
9127.2

Triple stack crit with
-Vampire Form
-Irians Light from Mabar
-Max/Emp/Enhancements
-Archmage ToD crit set
-Not positive if this one is possible, but helpless for the extra 50%

-Gisty

[heyytoi]

Anyway

/signed

Remove DP (caster version included) from the pits.

[TheDjinnFor]

The problem is not that Divine Punishment is overpowered in PvP, its that it is overpowered in general.

DoT, no-save, unavoidable, unblockable, 1000+ total damage spells should not exist in the game, period. Yes, you can get the same utility with, say, firewall, but that's only against dumb PvE mobs (a real human being would not sit in it and die). You can crit for something much higher with Polar Ray, but that's only against dumb PvE mobs (a real human being makes aiming ray spells wildly impractical until you can otherwise stop them from moving).

[justagame]

The problem is not that Divine Punishment is overpowered in PvP, its that it is overpowered in general.

DoT, no-save, unavoidable, unblockable, 1000+ total damage spells should not exist in the game, period. Yes, you can get the same utility with, say, firewall, but that's only against dumb PvE mobs (a real human being would not sit in it and die). You can crit for something much higher with Polar Ray, but that's only against dumb PvE mobs (a real human being makes aiming ray spells wildly impractical until you can otherwise stop them from moving).

Not only can you crit higher with polar ray, it's a single shot. It takes much more mana (stacked castings), and time, to get the DP damage people are talking about. I couldn't disagree more. Even with DP in the game, arcanes massively outdamage divines, it's not even close. Yet, this is called OP.