PSA: Being able to not Tank

[grodon9999]

Umm this is more from ignorance (only have one fighter to higher levels) but it may help to better define what qualifies as a tank....

I have an understanding (correct it at will) that there are three tank modes

AC tank - you don't get hit and (with U9) can do just enough damage to maintain aggro to keep the Boss of the moment on you so other mobs or bosses/mini-bosses can be covered by the others. A better AC tank also dishes out enough damage and hate gen to keep aggro if others also start beating on the boss. This is harder vs. pure DPS characters - and thus sometimes the DPS's just need to slow down a little to help maintain SP outflow and keep the boss under control.

HP tank - two forms of this really first is the healing amp tank (ie. full heals from cure lights) to minimize SP required OR just massive HP tank that can actually take a full, maxed out heal maxed 10% and still need more. These guys are easy to keep alive while others take care of trash/minibosses and/or other bosses. Again as a team you need to mitigate your damage output so the aggro stays on the boss in order to help keep SP use efficient.

Hate Tank - hits hard and often, keeps the bosses attention through pain and suffering. May need more frequent healing than the other two but rarely loses control of the boss due to being out-DPS'd.

Each of these tanks is viable in degrees and depending upon the group makeup one may be a better choice than the other. Knowing which of these you are and which you aren't is important. Knowing that you are none of these is important. Thinking you are one of these and being proven wrong in the quest means you should step aside. Thinking the star chose the wrong style and messing up the quest because you didn't want to stick to the stated plan should get you booted.

Another option is "all of the above." http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=294454

[countfitz]

You forgot the intimitank! Oh, sorry, you didn't, Turbine did...

To add to the thread, what does the OP mean as "tank"? This is really important, like do you mean every melee should be able to intimitank the Hound? Because if so, NO. Then every melee would be quasigimped for the rest of the game. Though, if you mean every melee should have a solid fog clickie and enough intim for the puppies, then maybe... My capped pali has that, but I wouldn't be mad if another pali or fighter didn't (especially a pre update 5 pali without intimidate on his class list!) Now, a barb, with extra skill points, yeah, he should, but even then I wouldn't be upset if he didn't.

This is much different than, say, a rogue that can't disable traps or a wizard without rage and haste or teleport and dd (or at least scrolls of these) or a FvS without at least one cure, one mass cure and either heal or mass heal (I'm not saying all, but at least THREE spell slots used for some kind of healing). That would be unacceptable.

A melee without intim, ESPECIALLY now after U9... there are WAY better skills, even cross class, so that's fine. In fact, I'm probably going to TR my pali ONLY because the intim on him is useless and for no other reason. Ok, so I'd TR him anyway, but I'm not taking intim this time around.

Now, if we're talking about a melee with NO CON, because he's "DPS only" and less HP than my cleric or level 10 rogue, then yeah, that is unacceptable too. I'd say under 500 HP is unacceptable for a melee.

So, what are we saying when we say "tank"?

EDIT: Wow, just read the actual post (misunderstood COMPLETELY). You're not saying all melee should be able to tank, but when asked to NOT tank, stop doing it. That's really just listening skills on the players part, and I totally agree.

[TrinityTurtle]

Hehe...good luck with that Cam. I'd just be happy if people would learn 'don't touch that' means don't touch that! Although watching horrible things happen after someone ignores you can be funny too.

[Kmnh]

I've stolen aggro from a "tank" on my bard once. Good times.


Kormor's belt is a nice way to deal with unwanted tanks. Leaving them dead works, too.

[Carpone]

...is just as important as being able to Tank, when asked.

Corollaries:

If you pull aggro, you better be able to tank.

If the designated tank can't hold aggro, he shouldn't be the tank.

Learning when *not* to use the eClaw set is a skill that's sadly beyond many barbarians.

Find better people to play with. Every melee should be using the eClaw set.

[grodon9999]

Find better people to play with. Every melee should be using the eClaw set.

yes, because it just grows on trees. Are you for real?

[grodon9999]

Corollaries:

If you pull aggro, you better be able to tank.

If the designated tank can't hold aggro, he shouldn't be the tank.

Often a toon who's significantly easier to heal might not generate quite as much threat. raids are a team sport.

[Thorzian]

True, but when people have to get naked to not pull aggro, something has to give.

there's a difference between dps and hate. there is absolutely no reason at all to wear hate gear if you're not a tank toon. there is also no reason to have more then 2 tank toons in any quest/raid. and the only quests i can think of where 2 are ok are vod and tod.

no brigand's cutlasses ye noobs. no claw set as sirgog said, no wf or horc hate enhancements, no levik's.. healing amp isnt that important.

[ProdigalGuru]

Incite DPS should stand next to the Tank instead of behind the mob.

That way, if the Tank loses aggro, worst case scenario the mob rotates 5 degrees.

Also, it's easy for the Tank to get aggro back, because he doesn't have to chase down the mob.

Everyone can have fun bouncing the aggro around without causing a wipe.

Your tactics have to change with the game changes.

[Astraghal]

there's a difference between dps and hate. there is absolutely no reason at all to wear hate gear if you're not a tank toon. there is also no reason to have more then 2 tank toons in any quest/raid. and the only quests i can think of where 2 are ok are vod and tod.

no brigand's cutlasses ye noobs. no claw set as sirgog said, no wf or horc hate enhancements, no levik's.. healing amp isnt that important.

The only incite gear I ever wear full-time is the epic Claw set. If taking that off, turning PA off, not using clickies and boosts doesn't stop you getting aggro, the tank isn't doing their job and shouldn't be tanking. I sometimes have to use Vorpal Dwarven Axes of Pure Good, with PA off and no Claw set just to not pull the aggro of Suulomades off the assigned tank in VoD. That's just dumb.

When you're cutting your DPS down by 20% and using trash weapons or you'll pull aggro, something isn't right somewhere in the plan.

[sirgog]

I'm pretty sure that what the OP is trying to say is

"Knowing when you are too squishy to tank is just as important as knowing when you should tank"


Yes, there are times even a kensia fighter is just too soft to be main tank, (a great tail beater, but not a good main) and it is good when joining a Raid (i.e. VoD) when the leader asks if you can tank, you can say no.

Also people that aren't squishy need to know when they are not appropriate tanks.

I don't care if your WF barb with no healing amp and no healer's friend has 900 HP and twice the DPS of the next best DPSer in the raid. If the raid is using divines as healers and incoming damage is high, if you pull aggro more than once or twice, I'm dumping your soulstone in the lava.

[dkyle]

Incite DPS should stand next to the Tank instead of behind the mob.

That ruins the whole point of having a tank. The bosses we tank use cleave attacks, so we have one person tank, and the rest on the back not getting hit. One person getting hit means using more efficient healing, especially heal scrolls. Once you have two people getting hit, you lose that benefit. Now you need twice as much single-target healing or you need to switch to mass healing.

"Incite DPS" is a tank. If you're not tanking, you shouldn't be wearing incite gear, except maybe the epic Claw set. But honestly, 4 damage isn't worth the risk of pulling aggro, in my opinion. Wear it for Shroud, and ToD pts 1 and 2, but I wouldn't wear it for pt 3, VoD, or eChrono, unless I knew the tank well enough to judge his DPS/incite.

[ProdigalGuru]

If incite DPS is a tank, then it should be able to take a few hits, or it ISN'T a tank.

And what is wrong with mass heals?

The squishies still get to hide in the back.

[dkyle]

If incite DPS is a tank, then it should be able to take a few hits, or it ISN'T a tank.

The point is, why is he "incite" DPS if he isn't tanking? He should have his incite gear off, and any incite abilities turned off. Then he's just "DPS".

We assign specific tanks for a reason. Many of the characters in a Raid that aren't tanking could tank, but an aggro shift generates chaos and confusion when someone the healers weren't expecting to heal is suddenly taking massive damage, let alone if the entire party gets caught in cleaves.

And what is wrong with mass heals?

They are less SP efficient than single-target heals, if you only need to heal one person. If only one person is taking the vast majority of the damage, your healers will use less SP than if they needed to mass-heal the whole party.

The squishies still get to hide in the back.

Only by occasional spell damage, unless they're standing in the wrong place. In ToD, an evasion character on the back of Sulu or Horoth can easily go without any healing as long as trash are controlled.

I've run ToDs on my Bard where I was assigned party heals, and only needed a half-dozen scrolls (and no SP heals) for all of part 3.

[Raithe]

I love threads like this. It proves just how confused people are at what constitutes a tank and why you would even need one.

Just FYI, some of us play DDO without "tanking." If a quest requires lame tank-n-heal methods for completion, it goes on my ignore list. Fortunately I have yet to encounter such a quest.

Mass heals work just fine and are the most efficient in terms of hit points healed per spell point. There are mass cure moderate wounds scrolls available at the vendor, if scroll usage is a consideration.

[dkyle]

I love threads like this. It proves just how confused people are at what constitutes a tank and why you would even need one.

99% of the game indeed requires no tank. There are a few boss encounters where tanking is a more efficient strategy than surround-and-pound. Even then, I'm sure you could brute force them with enough SP pots and over-healing, but why do that when a more efficient method is available?

Just FYI, some of us play DDO without "tanking." If a quest requires lame tank-n-heal methods for completion, it goes on my ignore list. Fortunately I have yet to encounter such a quest.

So you run ToD without any tanks? That must be exciting.

Mass heals work just fine and are the most efficient in terms of hit points healed per spell point. There are mass cure moderate wounds scrolls available at the vendor, if scroll usage is a consideration.

Mass heals are the most efficient way to heal the whole party. They are not the most efficient way to heal one person. And given a choice between healing the whole party, and healing one person, it should be obvious which is more efficient.

And, MCMW scrolls? Those piddly things? I guess they can be useful for between cooldowns of real mass cures, if you really need them, but they're nowhere near as effective at keeping a party up as Heal scrolls are for keeping one person up.

[grodon9999]

I love threads like this. It proves just how confused people are at what constitutes a tank and why you would even need one.

Tank = thing that holds aggro and is easy to heal. How you get there don't matter

[Bilger]

Incite DPS should stand next to the Tank instead of behind the mob.

That way, if the Tank loses aggro, worst case scenario the mob rotates 5 degrees.

Also, it's easy for the Tank to get aggro back, because he doesn't have to chase down the mob.

Everyone can have fun bouncing the aggro around without causing a wipe.

Your tactics have to change with the game changes.

Seriously stand next to then there is no point, like others said, to have a main tank taking no damage when ya have a idiot to the side taking multiple cleaves and extra damage and resources when not needed.

If leader asks to remove hate gear as a safety precaution and you don't remove you will be a soulstone and left to rot for all I care.

Seriously how hard is it to have a backup +6 strength gloves or bracers.

This game is about teamwork not look how uber I am I pulled aggro from main tank.

AC S&B are very viable still I have one that uses intim and mid 80's to 90ish AC I also use hate and have held up against a esos and such. It is possible to hold up to, but why take risk don't make sense do as leader says and remove hate gear isn't that difficult.

[Junts]

I love this thread.

More.

[Mayen]

Here is the easy solution for those of you NOT tanking, don't wear the Eclaw set first of all. 4 damage is nice but 20% increased threat is not so nice. 20% threat means that you may have to slow down your DPS now/switch to a worse set if you cannot do that much. Now you just negated that oh wow 4 damage a swing you got.

Oh here is an even better idea. Go out and get yourself a THARNES SET (goggles/bracers). You can now do 20% MORE damage to the boss then the tank before agro can flip. How nifty is that? By doing less you actually can do significantly more. Rogues have known this little tidbit for years, time for barbs to catch up.

Just because you CAN pull agro does not mean you SHOULD.