Fix piking raids

[Emili]

The only one which truely is a piking raid is reaver... used to be done solo constantly.

At least with the others when those other raids mentioned are run "at level" in a group of new players things can go wrong.

[Elation]

Look there is no reason to make these raids anyharder then they are they are appropriate for the levels that the raid is made at. Reaver on elite is ment to be somewhat challanging for a group of lvl 14s come on now stop complaining that at lvl 20 its a piker raid it should be. Von 6 On elite lvl waht 12 raid challange for a group of lvl 10s as it should be. Titan again lvl 12 on elite challange for a group of lvl 10's if you dont like them only run the high end raids on elite and then pike. I like running them a the lvl they were made for it makesit more fun.

[Aurora_nyx]

add to that maybe VoN5...

its usually three for four people doing the quest, the others looking around for something to do.


_

but I like piking VoN 5... I ran it on my bard today and actually had to do things...it was frightening

[Bunker]

OP: I agree with Reaver. Everything else would need you to make more explination as to why they need a change.

Titan is fine.
Abbot is fine. (you want to do it legit, then dont' put cleric or monk in ice. issue solved.)
DQ fine
ToD fine
Von6 fine
Shroud fine
did I miss any?

Recap: Reaver could use something. Not going to say what that something is, but it could use something. But then again, the Reaver is one of a kind. so maybe it is fine.

Recap Redo: Reaver is fine.

-Bunk

[Hordo]

Piking isn't fun. It essentially turns the raid into a chore. Give pikers something to do! I'm fine with raids becoming harder because that can be balanced out by increasing loot chances.

Suggestions:

Abbot:
Ice - remove DI and waterwalk hacks. Make people do it the old fashion way (*but teleport all the dead people in the water to the top at the end!). Rocks - Increase duration, increase amount and speed of asteroids. Make rock conservation an issue.

Titan:
Twilight Forge is ridiculously long and not hard at all. People put off joining to do something else while others clear the way, and then try to join at the last minute. It's silly. Make this quest a one-time flag.

Titan Awakes: make multiple people required to run power, have multiple crystals required to "charge up" the laser. Allow possible completion even if all pillars fall and the Titan still has shield. (Maybe at that point, spawn tons of difficult mob and give the titan 95% DR instead of 100%.)

Reavers:
Make it epic please!

I declare this suggestion to be treif!


I consider this affront to my profession to be nothing but a backhanded attempt to undermine the good works and ministry of Hordo, Pigrus Maximus and the holy works of Gornn almighty of Khyber.

I call upon all good pikers to alt-tab to this thread during their quests and raids to submit their displeasure.

SHAME!

SHAME BE UPON YOU AND YOUR LOOT!

MAY YOUR END REWARDS CONTAIN NAUGHT BUT HEROIC DEEDS!

My attorney will be notified in the hopes that I might pursue both an anti-defamation suit as well as a restraint of free trade suit.

May Gornn have mercy upon your soulstone.

Hordo
Pigrus Maximus
High Rabbi of Khyber

[protokon]

/not signed

If you don't want to pike in a raid, then the best thing to do is not to pike.

this.

abbot can still be done if more than 2 people walk into tiles.

titan can still be done if less than 9 people pike on a ladder.

von5 can still be done if 10 people don't pike in the center.

reaver...could use a makeover tho to make it less boring.

[bendover]

Piking isn't fun. It essentially turns the raid into a chore. Give pikers something to do! I'm fine with raids becoming harder because that can be balanced out by increasing loot chances.

Suggestions:

Abbot:
Ice - remove DI and waterwalk hacks. Make people do it the old fashion way (*but teleport all the dead people in the water to the top at the end!). Rocks - Increase duration, increase amount and speed of asteroids. Make rock conservation an issue.

Titan:
Twilight Forge is ridiculously long and not hard at all. People put off joining to do something else while others clear the way, and then try to join at the last minute. It's silly. Make this quest a one-time flag.

Titan Awakes: make multiple people required to run power, have multiple crystals required to "charge up" the laser. Allow possible completion even if all pillars fall and the Titan still has shield. (Maybe at that point, spawn tons of difficult mob and give the titan 95% DR instead of 100%.)

Reavers:
Make it epic please!

Abbot - I don't allow anyone to pike in my abbot 3 spotters (each that are capable of doing all the puzzles and obviously perform), 2 in ice, 4 in roids, and 6 goggles. By the way DI and walking on water aren't hacks or "not" legit. They are DDO created abilities that allow someone to accomplish the goal. So you're complaining about the wrong issue. It's the people that can only get their completions by hanging in goggles. That's low and pathetic. If you can't do it the right way you don't belong in the raid to begin with.

Titan- /signed. The pre-raid everytime is the main downful to this raid. People just don't run it and the main reason is the pre-raid.

Reaver- /signed. Epic please... alot of people nowadays don't even bother flagging for this on their new toons. This raid is a joke and making it epic would bring new life into it.

[MeliCat]

Abbot: leave the portals up and make them both ways for ice and goggles - normal and hard only. Won't be an insta fail but still a trick to get in and rezz and get out again rather than waiting for the abbot respawn and trash.

[Kwyjibo]

The more time spent reinventing old quests equals less time fixing true bugs (greensteel, abbot item disappearances, etc.) and much less time developing new quests.

The game needs new content to survive, piking old raids is an easy trade off in my opinion.

I couldn't agree more...

[haku-ba]

Raids that are designed for lower levels but are being run by players on capped characters should be 'boring'. Aren't you after the completion? If you want the challenge, run it under/at level.

Reaver is too boring? Solo it. Can't solo it then don't complain, and run duo's or whatever to make it a bit more challenging. At least you will have something to do.

Titan takes too long? Get a core group of players you can run with, make sure everyone knows all the roles, run it as fast as you can/want with everyone doing something and rotating jobs each run. You don't have to fill a raid party to run the raid. All raids have things you can do in em.

When you find a raid that you can pike in whilst soloing, that would be one that needs a 'review'. Otherwise, I agree with other posters that I would like new raids more than 'updated' old raids.

[Blank_Zero]

/not signed.

You can duo asteroids and put the rest into goggles. (more in goggles = less chance at failing.)

Reaver? Meh. Shortman. Beat on eles, etc.

Titan. Shortman. done a 4 man, almost no issues.


Stop whining about how low level raids are too easy. I'd rather see NEWer HIGHer lvl raids for challenge.


After all, who does DQ2 Elite with a full group anymore? or VON6?

[Stillwaters]

Titan. Nobody runs titan anyway. Boring or not. (which it is) Scrap the entire thing. Create new loot for the next version too. And put it somewhere easier to get to as a raid group.


Reaver. It's the first real raid you get to do. Involves flagging ect... Chrono dont count. Neither does tempest really. Reaver is the first one with actual raid loot and tomes supposedly. Do it at level and its fine for a first raid. Like to see more enemies in here tho other than air eles. Just have a few 3-5 monsters spawn every minute in there. Keep the group busy. And the puzzle is pretty silly as well.

Titan - you have trouble getting 12 ppl to the quest??? hint meet in the subterrane and whip a scroll of greater teleport, or have a caster do it.

Reaver - the puzzle is silly?? my sis STILL beats me at that game: mastermind (TM) (tho i swear she cheats!). And VON also requires flagging i don't know any players that wouldn't include VON 3 at least a 1/2 dozen times on their levelling path.
Though adding a fountain in the main room of reaver (in the center of course) that grants fly but only during the antigrav could speed it up a massive amount, maybe also putting in better/varied minions than the air eles would be a plus.
DEFINITELY REMOVE THE PENALTY BOX! only other place that dying put you out of the game like this is shroud and it SUX!!!!

[SirValentine]

Abbot:
Ice - remove DI and waterwalk hacks. Make people do it the old fashion way (*but teleport all the dead people in the water to the top at the end!).

DI is my CAPSTONE ABILITY! It already sucks compared to most capstones, and is only really useful in this one place. Why do you want to nerf it? If you're going to take away the only really good use for going pure Cleric 20, I guess I need to LR to Cleric18/Monk2 to get what SHOULD be my capstone, +2 to Wis.

[fluffybunnywilson]

I am posting this while standing in the little hallway in Reaver's Fate.

[Thucydides04]

afk

[QuantumFX]

Abbot:
Ice - remove DI and waterwalk hacks. Make people do it the old fashion way (*but teleport all the dead people in the water to the top at the end!). Rocks - Increase duration, increase amount and speed of asteroids. Make rock conservation an issue.

Meh. Asteroids and Ice is fine as is. Goggles is the poorly designed puzzle. It seems like the inital design was for the guide to be able to lead the other player thru the puzzle via voice chat. However the reality of online communications made that design a failure from the start.

I would rather see one of the following:

Add some better visual cues for runner to visualize the grid. This would make verbal instructions much clearer. (Yes, I know you can learn to “Follow the runner” but that solution is effing ********.)

Instead of disappearing tiles that drop you make the puzzle an invisible (to the runner), shifting, maze with a couple nonmoving holes you can fall through.

Titan:
Twilight Forge is ridiculously long and not hard at all. People put off joining to do something else while others clear the way, and then try to join at the last minute. It's silly. Make this quest a one-time flag.

In many ways I would like to see an epic version of this. However, there are some annoying design considerations that make it a poor candidate for epic mode. Anyway, people are holding off because they simply don’t know what to do in there.

Titan Awakes: make multiple people required to run power, have multiple crystals required to "charge up" the laser. Allow possible completion even if all pillars fall and the Titan still has shield. (Maybe at that point, spawn tons of difficult mob and give the titan 95% DR instead of 100%.)

I loved the version before Turbine added their “We screwed up his aggro big time but decided to call it a ‘Happy accident’ because we don’t know how to fix it.” update. It required a lot more group coordination than the current “Wait for him to stop spazzing” strategy used. Some steps back would make that a lot more fun.

Reavers:
Make it epic please!

Would be nice but the recent changes to weapons have actually made that raid more interesting on my “pikers”. (Enduring Conviction is fun nowadays.)

[Therigar]

Here's the fix for you:

Don't take all those others along on the raid. Just take the least number that you need to complete.

Now nobody is piking and everyone has a role.

Problem solved.

[eonfreon]

Here's the fix for you:

Don't take all those others along on the raid. Just take the least number that you need to complete.

Now nobody is piking and everyone has a role.

Problem solved.

But they have a role. It's magically increasing the chance at Raid Lootz in the chest. It's a darn good and important role too!!!

But in all seriousness; old raids are old. Make new ones. Enough of retooling the past. Other then making it Epic of course so that it can be run at-level capped characters for fun and challenge. But even that's more important then messing around with at level Raids. If they are made to be a challenge for piking capped characters without being made Epic, then they'll just no longer be low-to-mid level Raids. Most are fine. Just leave them be and make new content for capped characters.

[altrocks]

I take issue with the inclusion of VoN5 on your list. I think VoN5 is the epitome of what a raid SHOULD be (at level). You know why very few people run it on epic? Because it's HARD! The only reason people pike it for eVoN6 is because you're all 10 levels over it. Try running it AT LEVEL. It's awesome EXP, but it can be quite challenging, even for vets/TR's. Those traps are no joke, especially on elite. Yeah, the mobs aren't incredibly hard, but you have to remember when it was put into the game (A long time ago in a DDO far, far away), it was THE end game, it was the ToD/Epic of its time. I think it scales well, too. It's probably one of the few truly epic quests available, which, as I've said, is the reason it's not run a whole lot. Sands and VoN epics were done right, scaled well and gave an actual challenge, for the most part.

The other raids listed, yeah, there's some issues here and there (especially Piker's Fate), but again, you're running it all way above level. Ever try getting a Rever's Fate group together AT LEVEL? It rarely happens on Khyber. I can tell you that at least. Maybe other servers have better luck, I dunno. I'd like to see how hard it is with an at-level group one day, but I doubt it'll happen any time soon.

I've never run Titan. I have flagged one toon once for it, but it's run so infrequently and the loot from it is lackluster for many builds (compared with other Raid loot and epic items). So, I agree with the pre-raid suggestions on that one. Make it like Abbot flagging. Once you get the sigil/key/whatever, you're flagged and done.

Abbot is just fine (goggles and all). Maybe waterwalk/DI to get through Ice makes it a bit trivial, but then I'm seeing fewer and fewer pure clerics at cap these days. Plus, it's a level 17 raid, like Shroud. If you're running on fully geared 20's, it's supposed to be easy. Try running it with an at-level group. No DI. Maybe you can find someone with water walk. HP will be lower on Asteroids. Goggles will probably be about the same, though. The fight might be more interesting, especially with the Abbot's mantle. Completely appropriate quest composition, IMO.

Shroud is just fine. Few people run it at-level only. There's always a bunch of 20's in group, simply because it's the most farmed raid in the game. Rightfully so, with how powerful greensteel items are. But, again, try running it at-level. The DPS won't be mind-boggling on all sides, healers will have less SP and everyone will have fewer HP. Vets and TR's can do it easily enough, for sure, but not everyone is a vet or TR.

VoD and Hound are pretty good, all around. Level appropriate and not too much of a pike-fest, even for 20's.

Chrono is fun, but it's almost like they just took ToD, scaled it down and threw in a bunch more trash and optional objectives. Even on Epic it's not that bad, especially post-U9. Again, it's another one of those raids that I haven't seen done completely at-level, mostly because people farm for loot and want to pike rather than have a challenge. It's not like level 6-8 lack for EXP even on a double-TR.

DQ is like a more intense Reaver's Fate. This is what you'd get if they "made it harder". Just a different tactic to use, still the same boring beatdown with trash spawns to deal with until you're done. A bubble of people being spam healed for a few minutes is more about gear and build than skill or fun.

Puzzles, different traps and things of that nature make some Raids more fun and challenging, but then everyone just gets a solver loaded in their browser or they find a way around the obstacle and it's completely trivial after a very short time. Puzzles in Reaver and Shroud come to mind. Traps in VoD are equally trivial.

So what's the answer? I don't know. Maybe incorporate some AI into the traps and puzzles so a simple solver isn't enough. Maybe make them based more on having a balanced party/appropriate skills to get past them. Eliminate the work-arounds that groups use to avoid them. Have traps on trap control boxes that are just slightly harder to find/disable, or have disabling a trap attract the aggro of the boss/mobs in the room, as if they had used the intimidate skill with their disable score used in its place.

[Zharfie]

I didn't mean it was a 'hack' in the literal sense. I meant to suggest that it's cheesy and should be changed, because it offers no challenge.

Ice offers no challenge anyway, it's the easiest thing in the raid.

It seems like the inital design was for the guide to be able to lead the other player thru the puzzle via voice chat. However the reality of online communications made that design a failure from the start.

correction, DDO voice communications made that design fail. If only they would fix their voice chat already, dump gamespy piece of **** technology and use something actually good, like mumble, which is actually low latency and high quality.

I do the tiles constantly without failure aided with mumble voice chat.

Though to be honest, you don't need voice chat at all for that puzzle.

On a side note, Abbot is the best raid in the game because it has a chance for failure, everything else is just cakewalks *even* at level