Fix piking raids

[AtomicMew]

Piking isn't fun. It essentially turns the raid into a chore. Give pikers something to do! I'm fine with raids becoming harder because that can be balanced out by increasing loot chances.

Suggestions:

Abbot:
Ice - remove DI and waterwalk hacks. Make people do it the old fashion way (*but teleport all the dead people in the water to the top at the end!). Rocks - Increase duration, increase amount and speed of asteroids. Make rock conservation an issue.

Titan:
Twilight Forge is ridiculously long and not hard at all. People put off joining to do something else while others clear the way, and then try to join at the last minute. It's silly. Make this quest a one-time flag.

Titan Awakes: make multiple people required to run power, have multiple crystals required to "charge up" the laser. Allow possible completion even if all pillars fall and the Titan still has shield. (Maybe at that point, spawn tons of difficult mob and give the titan 95% DR instead of 100%.)

Reavers:
Make it epic please!

[Pape_27]

add to that maybe VoN5...

its usually three for four people doing the quest, the others looking around for something to do.


_

[Quarterling]

Ice - remove waterwalk hacks

Aw, but then what would be the point of being a dark monk?

[der_kluge]

Abbot seems fine as it is - you just need to make the Goggles room less time-consuming. Maybe shorten the gap to 10 tiles, instead of 12.5. It would also be nice if the windows between the columns on the platform actually lined up to the tiles.

Reavers definitely could use some improvement. Actually giving people a reason to be in the main room might be an improvement. Problem with that is the spikes in the ceiling are insta-kill to non-evasion classes. If you do that, you'd have to remove the stupid penalty box for dead people. It doesn't seem to serve any actual purpose.

[Phidius]

...
. Problem with that is the spikes in the ceiling are insta-kill to self-healing classes...

Fixed for you in red - evasion does squat with the spikes, but if you have enough HP you can refill before you hit the spikes again.

@Op:

/sarcasm on

yeah, please spend more time "fixing" the stuff that ain't broke, and leave the truly broken stuff alone please.

/sarcasm off


Here's an easy fix for you if you dislike pikers in raids - teach new people how to contribute in the raid. Everytime I try to teach people how to run the Titan, I get exhausted.

[AtomicMew]

Abbot seems fine as it is - you just need to make the Goggles room less time-consuming. Maybe shorten the gap to 10 tiles, instead of 12.5. It would also be nice if the windows between the columns on the platform actually lined up to the tiles.

Yeah, that's a good suggestion too: bring goggles more in line with the other puzzles. Perhaps, make it one way?

Here's an easy fix for you if you dislike pikers in raids - teach new people how to contribute in the raid. Everytime I try to teach people how to run the Titan, I get exhausted.

Um.. that's one of the points I was trying to make. Why bother teaching people how to do the raid, when it would just be faster and easier to let them pike? Titan is the perfect example.

[protokon]

I'm confused...

my short-man titan groups finish the pre-raid and raid in less than 20 minutes.

my titan learning runs finish both parts in under an hour, and thats teaching a full group of beginners how all the puzzles work. I never ask anyone to pike on a ladder, that's something that veterans do to make sure puggers dont screw something up.

abbot takes less than 15 minutes with two tilers that actually know how the puzzle works (and are proficient with guiding eachother across).

von5 takes less than 15 minutes with a group that doesnt sit there and pike.

the only one where piking is basically your only option is reaver's fate. THAT raid really needs to be looked at, even level-appropriate groups are just standing around for 10 minutes.

DI is not a 'hack'. it is an ability that prevents death effects, the water being a death affect. is people insist on cheesing the puzzle more power to them, I still prefer running it old fashion - even on my cleric.

[underpants]

I hate this raid so much nothing to do at the end and then when it gets screwed up it is over no fight no nothing.

[darkrune]

The more time spent reinventing old quests equals less time fixing true bugs (greensteel, abbot item disappearances, etc.) and much less time developing new quests.

The game needs new content to survive, piking old raids is an easy trade off in my opinion.

[fluffybunnywilson]

Fixed for you in red - evasion does squat with the spikes, but if you have enough HP you can refill before you hit the spikes again.

The first time that happened on my FvS, I was shocked.

"/p hey, I thought the spikes were supposed to kill you?"

[Aeolwind]

The more time spent reinventing old quests equals less time fixing true bugs (greensteel, abbot item disappearances, etc.) and much less time developing new quests.

The game needs new content to survive, piking old raids is an easy trade off in my opinion.

They actually added, or fixed, some parts of the reaver in u9. He talks a bit more now.

[Hecore]

Piking isn't fun. It essentially turns the raid into a chore. Give pikers something to do! I'm fine with raids becoming harder because that can be balanced out by increasing loot chances.

Suggestions:

Abbot:
Ice - remove DI and waterwalk hacks.

DI may well be considered a cheat, but I really don't think that's the case with waterwalk. It's an ability that literally has one use (Abbot raid), and by definition is designed to run on top of water... which is what the death fluid is in the ice room.

If that room is 'fixed' then I'd like the dev's to have a serious talk about making waterwalking something other then a no-trick pony.

Moving on -

I more or less support Reaver changes so I have something other to do then ele killing, and Titan needs quite a bit of an overhaul. Any changes that make more players have to do work should result in some tangible benefit, however - maybe faster raid completion or some kind of bonus chest with a small chance at +3 tomes (similar to TOD Sully chest).

[Cyr]

/not signed

I'll pass on the devs spending more time on raids that are years old. Although making raids without piking being a major component of them going forward is not a bad idea (and something they have been doing fairly well recently).

[Phidius]

...

Here's an easy fix for you if you dislike pikers in raids - teach new people how to contribute in the raid. Everytime I try to teach people how to run the Titan, I get exhausted.

Um.. that's one of the points I was trying to make. Why bother teaching people how to do the raid, when it would just be faster and easier to let them pike? Titan is the perfect example.

That's not been my experience.

When everyone knows what to do, the pre-raid goes smooth and fast. It's when people don't know what to do that you stand around waiting while puzzles are being rediscovered, and that's the part that's no fun.

Quick question - are you finding a lot of pikers when you run the raid at level, or do you find piking to be a problem when level 20s are involved?

[countfitz]

/signed

Just ran Twilight a week or so ago and wrote almost an identical thread (about just the Forge).

My suggestions were different, but in the end something has to be done about any raid where IF YOU DON'T PIKE you RUIN the quest and get blacklisted.

Example: I was in Twilight Forge, two newbies were there and not exactly told that they were supposed to pike, and after 3 hours ruined the quest.

Example: Piker's Fate, too many people trying to tank, do things, etc., Reaver obviously dies before fly.

Raids should NOT be easier with 3-5 people than 11 or 12. One person posted that, in the Forge, for every person added after 3 it reduces chances to complete by 10%. I agree.

[AtomicMew]

That's not been my experience.

When everyone knows what to do, the pre-raid goes smooth and fast. It's when people don't know what to do that you stand around waiting while puzzles are being rediscovered, and that's the part that's no fun.

I thought we were talking about "Titan Awakes" where the problem is piking = better. "Twilight forge" is a different issue, of course when more people know twilight it will go faster.

DI is not a 'hack'. it is an ability that prevents death effects, the water being a death affect. is people insist on cheesing the puzzle more power to them, I still prefer running it old fashion - even on my cleric.

I didn't mean it was a 'hack' in the literal sense. I meant to suggest that it's cheesy and should be changed, because it offers no challenge.

...pike on a ladder, that's something that veterans do to make sure puggers dont screw something up.

...Exactly? And you don't see anything wrong with that? That two-thirds of the party literally cannot contribute to raid completion?

abbot takes less than 15 minutes with two tilers that actually know how the puzzle works (and are proficient with guiding eachother across).

15 minutes is pretty darn optimistic, when you account for realistic rates of failure. But even still, that's 15 minutes where people do absolutely nothing except /sleep in roids.

[fuzzy1guy]

nm

[uthanak69]

Here's an easy fix for you if you dislike pikers in raids - teach new people how to contribute in the raid. Everytime I try to teach people how to run the Titan, I get exhausted.

People actually run that? I don't even know how to get flagged because no one seems to want to run it.

[Srozbun]

/not signed

If you don't want to pike in a raid, then the best thing to do is not to pike.

[Sarisa]

Quick question - are you finding a lot of pikers when you run the raid at level, or do you find piking to be a problem when level 20s are involved?

Whenever I run eVoN6, it usually ends up being only 2, maybe 3 of us at the most, who do anything in VoN5 besides pull levers in north and pike in the entrance. They then complain that it's taking too long to get to VoN6. I know quite a few people who have run VoN dozens of times, and have yet to learn how VoN5 works.

For Titan, usually I'm too busy doing either green or red to notice or care about the pikers in the Twilight Forge. Titan Awakes...my opinion is the pikers actually do serve a purpose. More people up there on the ladder, the more likely he is to target one of them and stay in one place shooting at something he can't hit.

People actually run that? I don't even know how to get flagged because no one seems to want to run it.

On Sarlona last night, we ran two Titan's back to back in just a hair over 2 hours. They filled fast. And we actually had decent drops, my caster won the roll for Seven Fingered Gloves on the first run; and my cleric pulled and put the Gyroscopic Boots up for roll (since I already have a pair).