str vs dex rogue

[Feithlin]

Anyway, what I really want to know is should my rogue go INT based (for traps) or CHA based (for UMD and diplo).

It depends on what gear you can count on (will you have trap gear up to date every odd level?), if you plan to use a +2 int tome and the number of skills you want to max.
With a starting int of 8, you can do all the epic traps with the right gear. You can start with 10-12 for more security, especially if this is a 1st character.
Cha doesn't require more than base value. UMD is a class skill so you will have no problem to reach 39.
Try not to put less than 14 Con if possible.

[Therigar]

Nothing requires a str-based rogue to take khop prof. It is as much an error to think dex-based have low con than thinking str-based use khopeshes.
If can choose khopesh prof for increased dps (for 3-5% more) but this isn't the only possibility. Many will take the Past Life if they TR, others could take Quick draw (that's what I did on my rogue), another toughness, or anything else. On the build I gave earlier for example, I took Combat Expertise.

Fair point. Keep in mind that I'm advocating for a 19/1 split w monk (or maybe even a 17/2/1 w monk & something else). That picks up an extra feat (or 3 if the something else is fighter).

But, on a pure rogue it isn't automatic that the character will have khopesh, just typical for many players because it is advocated so strongly on the forums. Since it is a build advice thread I've assumed past life feats aren't considered as someone with 34 point builds generally won't post the way this thread started.

Proportionaly, yes. I made a thread some time ago which seconds this idea. However, khopeshes are still higher dps than rapiers, but it's only by 3-5% when SA applies.

Which is why people think they have to have the khopesh proficiency. I know you aren't saying that but just by reference you imply to readers that they should take khopesh.

That 3-5% drops dramatically if the to-hit number goes up. Typical players will find they are missing often on higher level content. I know it doesn't happen to anyone who posts advice, they are all uber. But normal players, like the ones posting threads like this one, will find they are not hitting 40ish STR or DEX either one. They will end up missing fairly often on L17+ quests -- especially if they run hard/elite.

Khopesh stops being so good when you start missing. That 3-5% cushion disappears really fast when your miss % goes up 15 or 20%.

You consider dex-based have higher to-hit, which is simply false. In high end game (when to-hit actually matters), this is most probably the dex-based who risks having to turn PA off.

DEX base have higher to hit if they don't have the gear and buffs. That describes the majority of players. Once more, any point concerning high end game really is irrelevant in a thread like this because the character almost certainly won't be playing that content. At L20 the character might do the Amarath quests but it will more likely live on Shroud and loot running lower contents. That's just a reality for most players.

DEX is easier to push high (3 races get DEX enhancements, only 1 gets STR) and rogue class enhancements also support DEX. A halfling can start with max 16 STR and gets no STR enhancements. The same character can start with max 20 DEX and gets 5 DEX enhancements. All else being the same that is 9 points higher on DEX for +4 to hit. That means PA only pulls the DEX to hit down 1 below the STR to hit.

This is just the reality for most players who are not going to have the full set of STR boosters that people like to quote. So the fact is that for most players it is easier to hit with a DEX based character.

Lol. If you do less damage, you do less aggro, sure. Best do more damage and use threat reduction

Threat reduction may not be enough. If you look thru the forums you'll notice that people who play rogues often complain that they are pulling aggro from the "tanks" even with maxed threat reduction.

This speaks more to the weakness of the so-called tanks but also supports my contention that most people don't really succeed in getting those high STR numbers that we flash around on the forums.

Which is why my rogue is str-based and uses rapiers. When I will TR my ranger (not anytime soon but it will happen someday), I will do the same. Again, assimilating str-based and khopeshes is wrong. Of course, any khopesh user will be str-based, but the opposite isn't true.

There are any number of reasons to choose something other than khopesh as your main weapon. On that we agree.

I'll just restate the obvious -- most people who are STR based will also select khopesh because it does give an advantage in DPS. I think it is fair to assume most people who look to the forums for advice will try to work khopesh into a STR build if they can.

[karl_k0ch]

I'll just restate the obvious -- most people who are STR based will also select khopesh because it does give an advantage in DPS. I think it is fair to assume most people who look to the forums for advice will try to work khopesh into a STR build if they can.

In my opinion, this is only usually the case, even if we talk about "most people" who are supposed to be interested in maximum DPS.

Added usually , since the Rogue past life feat SoS adds a reasonable amount of damage.

If I am not mistaken, we have

Khopesh + PL > Rapiers + PL > Khopesh > Rapier.

The former option needs either a sacrifice in HP (no toughness) or a class/race choice with two spare feats, in contrast to the regular ones.

Edited post for the sake of quote integrity. I had inserted usually in two parts of the quote above, because I felt the need to add them. I did remove them now.

[Thaxlsillyia]

Both strength and dext are viable options and work well, provided dext rogue does not dump str. Finesse are traditionally easier to equip.

When decently equipped, often the fine folks of Eberon wont know what build you are until you tell them.

But strength rogues will do more damage (obviously). But dext vs str is an eternal debate among rogues and both sides have valid points. If you are a dps addict, then horc str rogue with khopesh is probably at the top of the dps pyramid. Also note that str rogues can also use rapiers and scimis can be UMDed.

Pick whatever appeals to you. Str is not a dump stat.

[Therigar]

Added usually , since the Rogue past life feat SoS adds a reasonable amount of damage.

If I am not mistaken, we have

Khopesh + PL > Rapiers + PL > Khopesh > Rapier.

The former option needs either a sacrifice in HP (no toughness) or a class/race choice with two spare feats, in contrast to the regular ones.

This makes me mad.

If I had meant usually I would have typed it.

Pure rogue has 7 feats, 8 if human. Feat choices are: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Improved Critical: whatever, Toughness, Exotic Weapon: Khopesh (or Weapon Finesse), Past Life: Rogue. You take the first 6 regardless.

Monk splash has 8 feats, 9 if human. A 17 rogue/2 fighter/1 monk has 10 feats, 11 if human.

If you are building 34 or 36 point characters for high end or epic content then you go STR, CON and DEX blowing off the other stats. You take the 6 initial feats and then weigh the value of PL feats. Since your focus is top end you are mentally looking at top DPS and that means the 6 feats I've listed with the 7th being the only one that is remotely argumentative.

In some cases you go only with the first 5 because you had prior lives that were DEX based and rapier focused so you have a good inventory of rapiers already available. This loses some DPS but is reasonable when put into context of what you have in your inventory.

A genuine epic focused player will go half-orc (or half-elf if they understand how to leverage the dilettante) and take the first 6 feats I've listed because they are keyed to maximum DPS. U9 only set this deeper into stone with the changes to auto-crit.

[karl_k0ch]

A genuine epic focused player will go half-orc (or half-elf if they understand how to leverage the dilettante) and take the first 6 feats I've listed because they are keyed to maximum DPS. U9 only set this deeper into stone with the changes to auto-crit.

Would you mind posting supporting numbers why one should take the Khopesh feat over the SoS PL feat, for example on a Str-based Halfling?

I hope we agree on the fact that most rogues should pick 3*TWF, PA, Toughness and an appropriate Ic feat. On non-human, Str-based, pure builds, you will only have one feat to pick from PL:SoS and EWP:K. Iirc, the latter is not a strictly better choice than the former. But I'd be interested to see numbers on that.

[SableShadow]

U9 only set this deeper into stone with the changes to auto-crit.

How so? The delta between rapiers vs khops went down in U9, not up.

[karl_k0ch]

How so? The delta between rapiers vs khops went down in U9, not up.

It depends how you see it. In autocrit situations, Picks were the weapon of choice, regardless of Khopesh or Rapier.

Some oversimplified calculations, which should be fine for HOrcs and Halflings.

Now, Rapiers deal some damage, let's say R, and Khopeshes usually deal a bit more damage than Rapiers, let's say R + K.

Both builds are assumed to deal the same amount of sneak attack damage S.

When helpless, the mob recieves 1.5*R + S, and 1.5*(R+K) + S damage. This broadens the gap from K to 1.5*K. This gap might be able to be closed by a PL feat, but I am not sure about this. Therigar is implying that it is not.

[nbennet]

Pure rogue has 7 feats, 8 if human. Feat choices are: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Improved Critical: whatever, Toughness, Exotic Weapon: Khopesh (or Weapon Finesse), Past Life: Rogue. You take the first 6 regardless.

You omitted Power Attack from your list of "must-have" feats. Was this an oversight? It is also a crucial max-dps choice.

[Therigar]

Would you mind posting supporting numbers why one should take the Khopesh feat over the SoS PL feat, for example on a Str-based Halfling?

I hope we agree on the fact that most rogues should pick 3*TWF, PA, Toughness and an appropriate Ic feat. On non-human, Str-based, pure builds, you will only have one feat to pick from PL:SoS and EWP:K. Iirc, the latter is not a strictly better choice than the former. But I'd be interested to see numbers on that.

An epic focused player is probably not looking at pure rogue because the SA damage is too situational. The current top DPS builds are strong rogue splashes rather than pure class. This means that they have more than enough feats available. If SA is always happening then the damage is so much that it becomes a real debate about where to go with 3 of the feats.

A pure class rogue if choosing to go halfling (which, FWIW, is no longer the no-brainer choice since half-elf dilettante options almost always give more DPS) must choose from among Power Attack, PL and EWP:K and gets only 2 of them. They are also the most likely to have been DEX based in 1st life (at least) and have a large number of rapiers already set aside -- meaning they'll likely feel justified in skipping on khopesh.

So, if you want to slant the discussion by forcing us to only consider halfling then any 2 of the choices seems nearly as good as any other 2. Personally, I'd consider whether PA belongs in the list as the reduction in to-hit might result in enough misses that it would be off in many situations.

Lastly, if your epic group is managing to hold/incap mobs then the higher damage from SA and high crit ranges will be telling. But, that is the wrong place to focus. The issue is with boss fights. Trash is called trash for a reason.

How so? The delta between rapiers vs khops went down in U9, not up.

As for khopesh and U9. With changes to autocrit arguably good build decisions that focused on heavy picks (thus rapiers by extension as both benefit from piercing feats) are no longer worthwhile.

Once again, rapier is making sense to a lot of players because they already have an inventory of rapiers and the damage on crit benefit that is seen with the higher crit range pushes rapiers ahead for those players. In many cases it doesn't make sense to craft khopeshes to do the same job when they already have the rapiers in their backpack/bank.

Like the choice to go with heavy splashes of rogue rather than pure class in order to cover more DPS situations (and mitigate lost DPS when SA doesn't apply) this change to the rapier/khopesh dynamic is positive.

At least we can have a debate now and the number differences are smallish and situational. But, I'll reiterate that the focus has to be on boss fights and not on mobs. And the issue becomes: does the weapon get thru DR and fortification?

In most cases the weapon that will win out as an all-purpose choice is still khopesh.

[karl_k0ch]

I ask for numbers, but I get allegations.

So, if you want to slant the discussion by forcing us to only consider halfling then any 2 of the choices seems nearly as good as any other 2.

I was interested mainly in halfling, because my main is one. Not to force a discussion into that.


NB: I picked halfling, because it seemed to be the best f2p race.

[Therigar]

When helpless, the mob recieves 1.5*R + S, and 1.5*(R+K) + S damage. This broadens the gap from K to 1.5*K. This gap might be able to be closed by a PL feat, but I am not sure about this. Therigar is implying that it is not.

You omitted Power Attack from your list of "must-have" feats. Was this an oversight? It is also a crucial max-dps choice.

I'm not saying the delta isn't overcome by the PL feat. What I'm saying is that it doesn't have to be a choice between khopesh and PL.

Obviously this is the situation for humans who can have both and also PA. And, equally obvious, it is the case for splash characters who have enough feats to cover all three.

I left out PA because it only counts if your to-hit doesn't drop enough to get you misses. In a perfect world that won't be the case. But it should come as no surprise that there are plenty of people without access to Yugo pots or Titan's Grip or other STR bonuses that we routinely include when running thru DPS calculations.

It doesn't take much of a drop in STR for the -5 to hit from PA being on leading to regular misses. And, if you miss you aren't doing damage.

So, players with PA that use it on regular content often have it off on epic content because they are not hitting. If you aren't using it then why do you have it?

Once more, I know that this doesn't apply to any of the uber players who contribute comments to the forums. But, it does apply to almost every other player out there who reads the forums.

Using myself as an example. I've been playing on Orien since the server went up, transfered from Ghallanda by way of Cannith. I've yet to pull Madstone boots. That's -4 STR off the calculations. I don't have Yugo favor even though I'm capped on Therigar on his second life. That's another -2 off. I don't have a supply of Titan cookies. Well, you get the idea.

Most people look at DPS calculations and STR numbers in the 60s and think, my god, I'd be happy to get my STR into the 40s on a steady and reliable basis.

With STR in that range you are looking to miss on epic content, meaning PA, IMO, isn't an automatic choice. In fact, for most people it should not be in their feat selection at all if they have the option for both khopesh and PL.

[Therigar]

I ask for numbers, but I get allegations.


I was interested mainly in halfling, because my main is one. Not to force a discussion into that.


NB: I picked halfling, because it seemed to be the best f2p race.

I'm not going to play the numbers game because 1) there are plenty of people already doing it, 2) the results depend on what weapons and stats you pick for your base and 3) because of #2 you can prove just about anything with numbers.

People a lot smarter than me have run lots of numbers and what I notice is that the differences are usually small -- >10% in most cases. Since we should assume that this is a group game and there are lots of contributors in killing things that difference is usually lost in overdamage. (Think overhealing where your incoming heals are more than the damage you've taken, the extra healing is really wasted. Same with damage, if the monster has 50hp left it really doesn't matter if the next damage does 75hp or 275hp, the monster still dies.)

Keep in mind that I entered this thread suggesting that DEX based and non-khopesh builds were a good idea if you can get high 50s AC with little work. So, I'm not really wed to khopesh as the weapon of choice. Our discussion right now really is about the reasons khopesh is almost always pushed at readers and why they are lead to believe that their build should be dual khopesh using.

And, those smart people who run the numbers seem to end up with khopesh always ahead. As is stated earlier in this thread, the assumption is khopesh + PL > rapier + PL.

As for halfling and F2P race choices. I'm not sure that halfling is really a better choice than human in the F2P races. It certainly is more popular due to the halfling enhancements and if I had to choose I'd go with halfling as well.

So, for me the decision would be PA vs PL vs khopesh. On a personal level I'd fall in with the group that has rapiers in the bank so I'd ignore khopesh. I'd probably also ignore PA for reasons I've stated elsewhere in this thread. So I'd go PL if it applied and otherwise have 2 feats to use in other areas.

But, I'm only trying to point out that the general trend in the forums is that if you are STR based you will be going with khopesh if you are serious about DPS. And, even w/o me trying to give you numbers to show that I'm comfortable that the others who have done the number crunching show khopesh ahead most of the time.

[Ookami007]

also in those links:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=295321
for example he shows both with 5 misses. the dex build is going to get less misses so will end up around the closer dps.
The horc version this would make sense but then that means you have to lower the sneak attack damage as they would not have the same.

This has been debunked MULTIPLE times.

There are enough ways to boost STR that any self respecting STR rogue will have MORE hits than a DEX rogue.

That's just the way it's geared.

[Aerendil]

This has been debunked MULTIPLE times.

There are enough ways to boost STR that any self respecting STR rogue will have MORE hits than a DEX rogue.

That's just the way it's geared.

Yep, very true. There are simply so many ways to boost STR compared to DEX, that the game really favours STR as the to-hit stat of choice.

The sad part is that a DEX-oriented Rogue *could* be fantastic, if AC actually meant anything. Sadly for end-game, it doesn't. And getting to a meaningful AC after level 12 or so requires a fair bit of raid gear, which you certainly won't have on your first life, and possibly not even for your second. But I would love so badly to try out a Combat Expertise Rogue with 65 AC and a Rad2. They go so well together. It would be similar to the "Exploiter" build of the Ranger where you have high AC, UMD, and a great dps. It's just not feasible for the majority of people :/

So yeah, if you have the gear and are tempted to play an AC rogue, then I'd say go for it. These days especially, you can easily compensate for the non-sneak attackable mobs with weaponry to easily dispatch them (i.e. GS improved destruction weaponry for undead; twin smiters/GCB for constructs).

But if in doubt, my vote is STR-based all the way.

[fluffybunnywilson]

This has been debunked MULTIPLE times.

There are enough ways to boost STR that any self respecting STR rogue will have MORE hits than a DEX rogue.

That's just the way it's geared.

In fact, there are so many stacking sources of Strength that a Rogue who starts with a 14 Strength and an 18 Dex and who puts all of his level ups into Dex will STILL come out with a higher Strength than Dex with good equipment.

[karl_k0ch]

I'm not going to play the numbers game because 1) there are plenty of people already doing it, 2) the results depend on what weapons and stats you pick for your base and 3) because of #2 you can prove just about anything with numbers.

True. The best thing to do is to check the numbers yourself for your particular build, with your particular items. (Which is what I am going to do soon for my build. )

And, those smart people who run the numbers seem to end up with khopesh always ahead. As is stated earlier in this thread, the assumption is khopesh + PL > rapier + PL.

That's an assumption I am willing to believe. Not questioning this. The main interest was Khop + no PL vs. Rapier + PL. But then, I guess the numbers depend on the whole build, again.

Your thoughts on PA, to-hit and splashes are very much appreciated, actually. Not the best thing to read while you are in the middle of TRing your main into a pure Rogue, but nevertheless - you started to make me thinking about my end-level plan again.

[Therigar]

This has been debunked MULTIPLE times.

There are enough ways to boost STR that any self respecting STR rogue will have MORE hits than a DEX rogue.

That's just the way it's geared.

STR halfling:

16 base STR
05 stat increases
07 STR item
03 exceptional STR
06 Rage (potion/spell, double Madstone)
02 ship buff
03 STR tome
02 Yugo potion
06 Titan's Grip (gloves?)
--
53 fairly reasonable end-game STR, gives +21 to hit and damage

DEX halfling:

20 base DEX
05 stat increases
07 DEX item
03 exceptional DEX
05 DEX enhancements
02 ship buff
03 DEX tome
02 Yugo potion
--
47 fairly reasonable end-game DEX, gives +18 to hit and +0 to damage

Note that Titan's Grip is a 1 minute buff and that STR drops to 47 without it (same as DEX).

STR is higher but dependent on clicky and short buffs for that effect. It also relies on double Madstone procs which might be unrealistic if you are not getting hit in combat (such as is is the case when you don't have aggro).

Note also that I haven't listed every possible source of STR or DEX boost, just the easy/obvious ones.

DEX materializes faster so has more utility in leveling to L20. The benefits are more obvious much earlier. Eliminate gear requirements (Madstone, Titan's,Yugo) and DEX jumps ahead.

So, DEX is easier.

Couple this with the AC benefits, which make a character more survivable.

While STR is ultimately more powerful it is initially, and for most of the character's life, the lower value. And, it offers much less in terms of added benefits (ie, AC, reflex save).

For this reason many players go DEX based. This leads to rapiers and the observations I've made about large inventories of good rapiers. In fact, many players will level with DEX based and LR @ L20 to STR based because of the inherent advantages of DEX over STR.

For new players with 28 point builds the ability to avoid spreading stats over multiples (no balancing STR, CON, DEX and possibly INT, WIS if trap focused or mechanics) means better ability to min/max -- which, face it, is required if you really are looking to maximize the to-hit numbers. People with 32 points are a bit better off but struggle with the DEX 17 need for the TWF line.

So, in absolute terms maybe STR is going to get you higher numbers but in practial terms DEX wins out for most people.

[Thaxlsillyia]

I'm following this guide for my halfling rogue but am wondering what should I get when I have the listed enhancements? I was thinking like spot, hide maybe some trap stuff when I have points? Kinda clueless here.

coming back to your question... each time you level up you get points to improve your skills. skills add versatility to a rogue.
1. Rogue stuff - First things you fill up. Spot, search, disable device, open locks. Many ppl will advocate against maxing spot as the vast majority of traps are in fixed position. But for a new player who has not run through every quest a few dozen times it is very important and useful. Could skip a few ranks in open lock.
2. Utility skills - UMD. your biggest friend at higher levels. It builds up very slowly. You will see no benefits untill you reach 18 abouts and then it blows you away. This is one thing you want to max out in blind faith for now.
3. Game play - Jump and balance. You do not have max these. 10-15 ranks in each is enough. (Balance only helps you get back on your feet faster if knocked down). Tumble - 1 rank is enough
4. Aggro management/Survival skills - Bluff/diplomacy. Pick one. Diplomacy will not work if soloing but is very nice if in a party.
5. Sneak skills - Hide, move silently. You don't have to be sneaky to sneak attack. The game does not require a stealth approach 99% of the times. Pick if you have the points for it.
6. Haggle - always nice to have a few more coins but never the first line to max.

So skills to keep maxed are spot, search, disable device, UMD. Open lock can be as high as possible. Max one of the aggro management skills.
Rogues get plenty of skill points and you will have no problem flavoring your rogue in terms of skill points.

[Therigar]

coming back to your question... each time you level up you get points to improve your skills. skills add versatility to a rogue.
1. Rogue stuff - First things you fill up. Spot, search, disable device, open locks. Many ppl will advocate against maxing spot as the vast majority of traps are in fixed position. But for a new player who has not run through every quest a few dozen times it is very important and useful. Could skip a few ranks in open lock.
2. Utility skills - UMD. your biggest friend at higher levels. It builds up very slowly. You will see no benefits untill you reach 18 abouts and then it blows you away. This is one thing you want to max out in blind faith for now.
3. Game play - Jump and balance. You do not have max these. 10-15 ranks in each is enough. (Balance only helps you get back on your feet faster if knocked down). Tumble - 1 rank is enough
4. Aggro management/Survival skills - Bluff/diplomacy. Pick one. Diplomacy will not work if soloing but is very nice if in a party.
5. Sneak skills - Hide, move silently. You don't have to be sneaky to sneak attack. The game does not require a stealth approach 99% of the times. Pick if you have the points for it.
6. Haggle - always nice to have a few more coins but never the first line to max.

So skills to keep maxed are spot, search, disable device, UMD. Open lock can be as high as possible. Max one of the aggro management skills.
Rogues get plenty of skill points and you will have no problem flavoring your rogue in terms of skill points.

Excellent post.