Are you willing to put your money where your gripe is?

[Kalari]

Okay PVP fans as a PVE fan I have made it known how I feel about the implementation of pvp many times in the past. As a Dungeons and Dragons fan I never felt pvp had a place in this game. As a gamer though I realize that different things call to different people. Also as someone with many capped characters I can understand the need to want a different outlet to utilize your play time hence why I petition for many time sinks. But just like I did when I begged with others for housing I knew I had to make my plea noticeable by asking myself these questions.

1. Is what I want for the game (in that instance housing) something that will be used by a large portion of the player base?

2. Can the addition of this add revenue to the game?

3. Will adding this feature be something that wont cut into the development of other more important features?

4. Will it disrupt game balance?

So far I see many of the same things in pvp threads. Gripes about something being over powered. Balance for melees vs arcanes and the like. But no one has come out with a fully detailed layout that will bring in revenue.

Point blank the reason pve is such a focus is when new dungeons/explorer areas are introduced they can make packs which players can opt to buy bringing in revenue. With pvp there is no charge for it so your basically getting what you pay for. My question to you pvp players is this:

What would you pay to have a better pvp system? If they implemented an area where it was complete player vs player with a workable environment would you spend your hard earned dollars to move to said area (if it was a server) Would you spend Turbine points to buy a pack for a quest line that pitted you versus your fellow player population? Honestly if it brings in more revenue even if I would not find myself ever partaking in it I wouldnt be so vocal against pvp. But for now I am not seeing any real reason for the developers to give it any more thought then what we have. Id love to see someone think out a way for the game to profit and make those who really like pvp happy but I just dont find myself caring for the cause. Maybe someone out there who enjoys this can change my mind. Im putting that challenge out to you pvp pro people.

[Stormanne]

is deafening.

Like a lot of people, the vocal minority that wish for more PvP focus, want it but don't want to pay for it. Not saying that all of them wouldn't be willing, I'm sure there are those that would be, just thinking that a lot of them are not.

As it is, I don't think that there should be any work on PvP until there is a large enough of a group of players that are regularly taking advantage of the other forms of it, not just Tavern Brawling Pits.

[heyytoi]

I would pay for better PvP.

Right now its simply retarted and not fun anymore.

PvP never was balanced but it was still enjoyable.

Melee's still had good chances against caster... Now its all gone

So yeah i would pay for more pvp features, but what most pvpers really want right now is a major balance fix so we can enjoy it once more.

[Xenostrata]

I would pay for better PvP.

Right now its simply retarted and not fun anymore.

PvP never was balanced but it was still enjoyable.

Melee's still had good chances against caster... Now its all gone

So yeah i would pay for more pvp features, but what most pvpers really want right now is a major balance fix so we can enjoy it once more.

Any "balancing" in pvp would mean unbalancing in the rest of the game, where casters are supposed to be better at doing burst damage than melees. Even in PnP, if you had an epic caster and an epic melee duking it out, the epic caster would annihilate the melee with little to no problems.

DnD was never meant to be a PvP game, and when "PvP" means "periodic bursts of fighting with lots of standing out of battle in between" then yes, the casters are going to win because they won't run out of resources. You would need to have a long battle in which the caster had no chances to rest, and even with that chances are a caster would save enough sp to kill the melee.

[Kalari]

Any "balancing" in pvp would mean unbalancing in the rest of the game, where casters are supposed to be better at doing burst damage than melees. Even in PnP, if you had an epic caster and an epic melee duking it out, the epic caster would annihilate the melee with little to no problems.

DnD was never meant to be a PvP game, and when "PvP" means "periodic bursts of fighting with lots of standing out of battle in between" then yes, the casters are going to win because they won't run out of resources. You would need to have a long battle in which the caster had no chances to rest, and even with that chances are a caster would save enough sp to kill the melee.

That is honestly how ive felt about ddo to but I am trying to be fair. As much as ddo represents mmo dungeons and dragons it is also a video game. And since going free to play has attracted many different style players. I see all the time them talking about pvp balance, pvp being more interesting. Yet nothing set solid.

When we petitioned for housing there were many threads that just used the "well this game has it." that argument gets shut down faster then an illegal ring near a police station. Basically many of us started sitting down figuring out what we wanted out of housing, what it could bring to the game, and how they could make profit from it (which they do from selling guild amenities, to fluff items such as ship beacons). Sure we put up with those who would simply type "its a waste of dev time" or "no thanks I wont use it." Or even better yet "i'll leave if they put housing in." Trust me everything said to you pvp types has been aimed at this gal to when the housing crusade was going on. The difference now is still no threads laying out exactly what outside of "this class is too over powered" do I see anything laying out what would interest you. What kind of zones, what restrictions? Should it be free for all or limited by level? You see more detail more focus would go a long way. And as I said before you really get what you pay for with pvp. Unless they can find a way to make a pack from it I dont see it ever getting the focus pve does.

[dieselphiend]

Any "balancing" in pvp would mean unbalancing in the rest of the game, where casters are supposed to be better at doing burst damage than melees. Even in PnP, if you had an epic caster and an epic melee duking it out, the epic caster would annihilate the melee with little to no problems.

DnD was never meant to be a PvP game, and when "PvP" means "periodic bursts of fighting with lots of standing out of battle in between" then yes, the casters are going to win because they won't run out of resources. You would need to have a long battle in which the caster had no chances to rest, and even with that chances are a caster would save enough sp to kill the melee.

Give us a large explorer area, and casters lose their edge against ranged attacks... Balance in a box? Could never happen...

[heyytoi]

Any "balancing" in pvp would mean unbalancing in the rest of the game, where casters are supposed to be better at doing burst damage than melees. Even in PnP, if you had an epic caster and an epic melee duking it out, the epic caster would annihilate the melee with little to no problems.

DnD was never meant to be a PvP game, and when "PvP" means "periodic bursts of fighting with lots of standing out of battle in between" then yes, the casters are going to win because they won't run out of resources. You would need to have a long battle in which the caster had no chances to rest, and even with that chances are a caster would save enough sp to kill the melee.

Your kiding right?

Did i said that to balance pvp youd have to touch pve??

Right now, only removing Dot spells would be a huge improvement

And when i say 'remove Dot spells' i mean like BB. Make the spell unavailable in PvP.

Making searing light/ disintegrate/ frost lance/ melf arrows auto guided like MM removed the actual skill part of pvp.. its all auto aim... cant dodge, cant do anything. Stay still and hope you kill him first *HOW FUN IS THAT*

Theres no real way of making melee's good in pvp. It will always be a caster/divine thing. But good melee's always had there place and did give me good challenges. Now its pointless to play a melee, even a good one.. you literaly have no chance againts casters/divine...

Anyway

Im just sad about how it all turned out. And maybe one day tbine will read the PvP forums and do soemthing!!

*One can hope*

[Yajerman01]

*One can hope*

Sorry Made, Havent you heard, there is a new forum partisan which can be spammed on all PVP interests wiping out and or locking entire forum opinions on PVP. Hope, like a melee in the pit is completely voided; they do not even give PVP innterested people a forum lavander stone to withstand the barrages.

[protokon]

they do not even give PVP innterested people a forum lavander stone to withstand the barrages.

I'll sell you one cheap

[sirdanile]

I would pay for better PvP.

Right now its simply retarted and not fun anymore.

PvP never was balanced but it was still enjoyable.

Melee's still had good chances against caster... Now its all gone

So yeah i would pay for more pvp features, but what most pvpers really want right now is a major balance fix so we can enjoy it once more.

Haha, the one person who frequently killed me without my being able to get a shot in is saying melee HAD a chance against a caster at one point...

But yeah, its not high on my list but I wouldnt mind a little pvp love in the future.

[phillymiket]

Excellent points Kalari.

I'd actually enjoy if there was a pack or an event that pitted one party against another.
That would be fun.

But I can't support changing the game so that a small group can better PvP.
If nothing else it would attract more people who would ask for more changes toward PvP and drive away the majority group who wants to play Dungeons and Dragons.

I have no interest in seeing this



turn into this



However, if someone had ideas that would help the game as a whole, keep PvE untouched and make the PvP experience better while not sucking up all the dev time I'd be all ears.

[DarkSpectre]

Excellent points Kalari.

I'd actually enjoy if there was a pack or an event that pitted one party against another.
That would be fun.

But I can't support changing the game so that a small group can better PvP.
If nothing else it would attract more people who would ask for more changes toward PvP and drive away the majority group who wants to play Dungeons and Dragons.

I have no interest in seeing this



turn into this



However, if someone had ideas that would help the game as a whole, keep PvE untouched and make the PvP experience better while not sucking up all the dev time I'd be all ears.

STOP... Judge.... Half-point...

[fuzzy1guy]

nm

[Thorzian]

I'd donate $100 to the deletion of pvp. Does that count?

Bet i'm not alone either.



I suggested once that they monitize the ability to even enter pvp. Judging from the neg rep offa that.. Pvp players aint gonna pay jack.

+1 you are not alone. wanna pvp? go play wow. it has a great pvp system

[ehcsztein]

+1 you are not alone. wanna pvp? go play wow. it has a great pvp system

I have played WoW. I did enjoy the PvP system. I did not enjoy the rest of the game mechanics in general so the idea of only playing in order to enjoy a very small percentag of the content didn't seem worth it to me.

Whereas I do enjoy the game mechanics of DDO and believe they could be applied for PvP improvements.

[ehcsztein]

So far I see many of the same things in pvp threads. Gripes about something being over powered. Balance for melees vs arcanes and the like.

Funny I see the same gripes in PvE threads. *shrug*

I would enjoy more PvP in this game.

I would pay for the content if it was required. (ie. if it was a "pack" that for some reason wasn't free for VIP.)

I believe PvP options can be increased without upsetting PvE.

I have had PvP sessions in the PnP setting and found it great fun. Sometimes it is just fun to roll up characters within a set of agreed limitations and have them fight out gladiator style for a night.

I feel PvP is worth just as much dev time as crafting and airships have been as it also only satisfies a portion of the populous.

I would find enjoyment in increased PvP options and will continue to support the idea.

I have no interest in trying to convince anyone to see that additional PvP content is a worthwhile investment for the devs. If it is worthwhile we will see it. If it is not we won't.

None of us outside of turbine have enough credible information to determine what is or is not a worthwhile investment of their time/resources.

[ehcsztein]

The suggestion for group vs. group play comes up frequently in PvP advocacy threads.

Recently there as been an interest in seeing the tech used for the Crystal Cove event to be used for GvG play.

There is a host of options for doing that as well...such as:

Collecting Challenges
Protection Challenges
Destruction Challenges
Killing Challenges

With rewards going to the winning group of course. The reward system could be similar to what was done for Crystal Cove as well... that being access to and improvement of items only available through that process.

The idea of rewards for PvP seems to be a major stumbling block for many of the vocal anti-PvP folks but, the one thing that motivates players more than anything from my observation is loot.

Even the most adamant anti-PvP folks would be tempted to play in events with the possibility of new shinies even if it meant playing against other human controlled groups.

Crystal Cove was a rather successful occurrence and did not require the player base to pay real $$$ in order to participate. It is also indicative of Turbine adding something beyond the scope of things actively requested by the forum community.

Similar things could be done with a GvG slant just as easily. Players were not required to participate in that event. Much like they are not required to explore Epic Content, the GS hamster wheel, or new crafting system in order to enjoy the game.

It was an option that was enjoyed by many and scorned by some much like any change to the available mechanics of the game.

I also believe that Turbine is capable of adding GvG play a successful way without tampering with the PvE game aside of equipment additions. Of course they already tamper with the PvE game by way of equipment additions/changes all the time so that is largely a moot point.

[SisAmethyst]

...
With rewards going to the winning group of course. The reward system could be similar to what was done for Crystal Cove as well... that being access to and improvement of items only available through that process.

The idea of rewards for PvP seems to be a major stumbling block for many of the vocal anti-PvP folks but, the one thing that motivates players more than anything from my observation is loot.
...

While I agree that loot is a major incentive I have big concerns if gear and items where implemented that actually force me to participate in any PvP or GvG. While the basis currently is PvE and nearly everybody can participate I would vote against anything that shift this due to loot that is in anyway more then flavor and only achievable through PvP.
I wouldn't compare that with "...not required to run Epic Content..." neither as the base items still can be obtained with the regular Quest. Not to mention that you first have to reach a certain level and probably more player would run Epic content if the grind for scrolls and Co. wouldn't be that insane as you can see on the success of the items of Crystal Cove.

What would help probably is, if the PvP zones would alter certain behavior of spells and skills to balance them. Like we already have it that we can't cast underwater for example. However if that would be the case I can already see players running amok and creating bug reports because either their description doesn't match in this zone or they think its bugged. Also while usually the brawl is as well used to test new spells or skills, it wouldn't be possible anymore to get valid information this way. Thus very much undesired. For example most of the Greensteel effects have been tested and reported via fights in the brawl.

Also while the PvP brawl seems to be used, I have the impression that the private PvP/GvG instances - that you already can do - aren't used that much if at all. So I am uncertain if investment into this would pay off. Also I agree with stille_nacht that for the casual and F2P player we may first need a whole bunch of Quests and Zones that need more focus as well as the missing Epic content.

Crystal Cove was a rather successful occurrence and did not require the player base to pay real $$$ in order to participate. It is also indicative of Turbine adding something beyond the scope of things actively requested by the forum community.

While it was not necessary I am pretty sure that a lot of players bought at least a compass or potions to increase the doubloons. Turbine is a company that need to make money, they not create this stuff just to amuse us. So how exactly would you add PvP or GvG that create exactly this revenue for Turbine? Adding items that only can be obtained via PvP aren't the way to go. So just saying it is possible doesn't mean it's viable, like it is for me possible to jump from a bridge but very unlikely to happen.

[ehcsztein]

Just to touch on a few points...

Also while the PvP brawl seems to be used, I have the impression that the private PvP/GvG instances - that you already can do - aren't used that much if at all.

I think the discussion of improving PvP options largely comes up because of the inadequacies of the current system. There is no incentive to use it now so it gets in the way of gear acquisition and XP. This however does not demonstrate that people do not want PvP improvements. It just solidifies that people's priorities are XP and gear. We can understand that without even thinking about PvP lol.

Of course I also mentioned ideas that would revolve around GvG win conditions that would not require the groups to engage in combat with eadch other.

The current system is largely a poor implementation of traditional PvP concepts. I am advocating the development of PvP concepts that are unique to DDO that add to the game and allow the mechanics available to be explored in new ways. Crystal Cove was still just DDO but with a distinct and enjoyable twist. I'd like a similar twist on PvP.

So how exactly would you add PvP or GvG that create exactly this revenue for Turbine? Adding items that only can be obtained via PvP aren't the way to go.

Off the top of my head... consumables that are only usable in a pvp context... HP/SP regen for example. Or one that will probably be a bit more contraversial... a consumable that allows XP to be earned for satisfying PvP objectives.

[stille_nacht]

i would want PvP to be free if it ever did happen :/, it would indirectly increase revenue by virtue of drawing more players because of more features.