Are you willing to put your money where your gripe is?

[Vanquishedfo]

First pvp does bring the game money because its the WHOLE game I come to play, the fact the PVP is very poorly implimented in DDO does not mean it cant become something great.

PnP was always the equiv of PVP in an MMO. Why? Because you always had a thinking person behind the DM screen. Not only that, but in my experiance it was very typical for good RPers when not playing a pack of old friends, or loyal comrades,to turn on each other frequently because it was GOOD RP. Just as a paladin in sigil had to learn not to use his detect evil or throw down with every passing devil, it was about RPing the right attitude, and even best friends can, will, and at least occasionally SHOULD turn on each other for some piece of super loot.

This is why there are those here in DDO asking for more PVP content, because its also the real end game content in any MMO, and actually in any PnP game to. Did you like your characters to live to old age and die in thier sleep?

Not I, my characters always found a glorious end, typically in battle against another player character, over some fitting reason to battle even if it was an imagined slight to his honor.

Now to how they can make money with it? Are you serious? They could so easily drop in a system similar to GW1 and have at least something viable and fun. They could then sale 5 dollar a month PVP VIP subs for those only in the mood to PVP, who would gain access to making a character of any lvl and equip them with items drawn from the games named list of the right lvl, and allow pvpers to jump right in at each other.

Some PVE die hards say well PVP takes away from the game, or balance for PVP hurts PVE. It could, but just as easily and more likely it would improve it.

There are alot of things that people current see as NEEDS in PVE and even look down upon or refuse to play with people who dont or WONT abuse the easy to exploit power loot of this game. It is these things like for example heavy fort off the top of my head, which can all on its own negate the entire combat benefit of a rogue, or a kensai fighter, that create imabalance not just in PVP but also in PVE. I see how some say certain bonuses on weapons are to powerful if added on certain weapons. lvl drain on crit to a rapier for example. yet they dont see how heavy fort on any little item is very much worse for the game over all.

In my PnP group, it was interepreted that fort had to go on armor only, and fit the type of armor worn. so light armor for light fort, med armor for med fort etc. this kept the out right immunity to the bulkiest slowest and typically easiest to be hit low dex builds. Ive made suggestions like that here on the forums before and even had my rep bar hit heavily for suggesting that nerf to fort.

Yet imagine if suddenly EVERYONE and thier moms couldnt have heavy fort, if that was part of the advantage of being the heavy armor tank who as the pint man in battles truly does have a NEED for serious crit protection.

If it was rarer, then they could start making the dmg monsters deal be downed to something more reasonably resembling a fun fight rather then a if they hit me I die so thus CC and agro management are the keys to victory WOWtard style.

If you need to see a good simple effective way to balance pvp and pve, just look at GW1 which actually amazed many gamer amgs and players with its success in the shadow of WOW not just for the PVP core it was built upon, but also expanded into an amazing story driven pve campaign that was incredibly challenging, not due to hack and slash buff mechanics seen here in our so called end game, but through creating very dynamic tactical challenges, that allowed for dozens if not hundreds of variations in party builds to succeed.

This is why GW2 is on the horizen, and currently looks like the next great sword and sorcery MMO which since they dont charge a monthly fee, wont be any harder for me to invest in, then buying a 50 spot of DDO points as I currently do monthly to show support to turbine. However part of that support is meant to see DDOs PVP expand. if they dont and keep wasting all energy on content that gives no more then 2 or 3 play sessions worth of fresh fun before its just another grind, then DDO will lose my support and I have no doubt many others who keep trying to hope DDO is working on all fronts to become a GREAT game, instead of just an ok one with a niche.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

problem is, there must be class balance, or all of PvP would be one class. (ex, in capture the flag, 6 savant sorcs >>>> balanced party, they would snipe a sorc, then annihalate everyone else)

easiest way to achieve this is to tweak number values for PvP situations

I disagree. But you can't make it a cage match. There has to be terrain that allows tactics and surprises. And when you add teams it changes things a lot.

But many abilities do not work in PvP right now. Those need to be fixed/allowed.

If a Rogue sneaks up on you, you can be dead before you can make a concentration check and get a spell off.

You can be ranged from a distance that is too far for your spells to land.

You can be surrounded......tanked by someone who is actively being healed by someone else.

Add more dimensions to PvP and you allow for brains to overcome brawn.

[DarkSpectre]

Excellent points Kalari.

I'd actually enjoy if there was a pack or an event that pitted one party against another.
That would be fun.

But I can't support changing the game so that a small group can better PvP.
If nothing else it would attract more people who would ask for more changes toward PvP and drive away the majority group who wants to play Dungeons and Dragons.

I have no interest in seeing this



turn into this



However, if someone had ideas that would help the game as a whole, keep PvE untouched and make the PvP experience better while not sucking up all the dev time I'd be all ears.

STOP... Judge.... Half-point...

[dieselphiend]

D&D??? DDO isn't even turn based, it's a perfect platform for twitch style, PVP...

[Kalari]

Look we could go back and forth on what everyone's opinion on pvp's relation to pnp is but honestly no one will every 100 percent agree.

We have those of us who feel there is no place for it.

We have those who do enjoy it and maybe even had pen and paper sessions with it.

Thats not the point of this thread.

Arguing whether or not it has a place in this mmo is pointless because its all opinion. Putting forth ideas that show the people who have a way of implementing a better pvp setting was the whole reason I decided to put the bullseye on my keister by starting this thread.

Honestly I was up front about not really caring if an overhaul ever happened but I am for bringing revenue and keeping our play base strong. I realized after trying other mmo's out there that their are ways to cater to those who do not wish to indulge in such game play while catering to those who do. But you know what? None of those games are free and to develop something this big even for those who want it they need to see that it could and will bring in the dollars necessary to support such changes.

Sure I dont want anything added that will change the dynamic feel to this game Ive gotten used to but kinda too late for that, this game definitely is not the same game I started playing. So if IM going to go with the flow and accept and adapt to changes id like to see them at least make sense. Structured pvp changes that dont affect my game play (ie completely optional) would not hurt me as much as I used to think it would..maybe im just maturing a bit../nah I just like the thought of people using proper form to petition for things they want and like to see ddo continue to become a well rounded game for all. I would still love to see a hardcore server for perma death players as well.

[Vanquishedfo]

Ok start with a pvp lounge area, add pvp arena zones, that vary from small to large, and different kinds of terrains, and mini games, like capture the flag, last man standing, first to get 10 kills etc. Add in a few team size options from 1-12 to further milk its sheer potential for variation. Make it so you can enter it as a pve character, or a pure pvp only character who you can pretty much make for whatever lvl range u feel like, equip with a list of gear, maybe making named loot from pve unlockable through pvp reward points, thus making a reason to pvp as a pure pvp build, or come in with a pve character to test your mettle. Eventually expand this to parts of the world, where certain outdoor zones are made for up to 36 players who can team or not, and fight each other or not, while doing pve style stuff.

Finally some say well D&D is about friendship and getting along. If I and my Best bud of 23 years( since first grade where we met) where to suddenly stumble upon say excalibur, or Storm Bringer. I would honestly bash his head in with the nearst rock if it looked like he was even thinking of touching it first. Period. That is the true draw of epic artifact magic loot and in a game it is even easier to let one let out that inner Greed.

[uhgungawa]

We're taking a collections to get rid of PvP? Where do I donate?

[stille_nacht]

Your basing player draw on what. Do you have any support for this claim? I am pretty sure that we can all make things up like this but something real behind it would be nice. Since the general responses concerning what could be done seem relatively weak. Yes they released free to play quests but not very many of them in comparison.

general knowledge, in many MMOs, PvP is a popular or even integral part of that MMO (see maplestory, runescape, WoW, etc.e tc.) a lot of players have a lot of fun doing pvp, even if some may not like it. Therefore, and effective pvp system would probably draw more players as additional content.

when DDO went F2P, it started making far more money than before, By having more free content, you get more initial people, who then buy premium packs more frequently.
economics.

[Der_Incubo]

I would pay if there was an actual pvp system. I have never pvp'd in this game, as there really is no purpose, but generally pvp is what draws me to games.

DDO really isnt set up for guilds battling each other for supremacy, pk'ing in the streets, lootable gear, and honestly theres too **** many crybabys (or carebears if you will) in the game for some hardcore pvp.

[Chai]

Now to how they can make money with it? Are you serious? They could so easily drop in a system similar to GW1 and have at least something viable and fun. .

You had me up until here, where you state that taking a game that was not designed with PVP in mind, having it be live for 5 years, then saying they could easily drop a guild wars style system into it. I dont feel it would be so easily accomplished. Have you seen what it takes to acknowledge, verify, then fix a bug around these parts? This is many times an easier process than rewriting much of the code for this game to support a viable PVP system the majority would enjoy.

Impossible? No. Huge undertaking? Definately.

It would have been much easier to design the game from the ground up to support PVP, like guild wars.

[heyytoi]

Any "balancing" in pvp would mean unbalancing in the rest of the game, where casters are supposed to be better at doing burst damage than melees. Even in PnP, if you had an epic caster and an epic melee duking it out, the epic caster would annihilate the melee with little to no problems.

DnD was never meant to be a PvP game, and when "PvP" means "periodic bursts of fighting with lots of standing out of battle in between" then yes, the casters are going to win because they won't run out of resources. You would need to have a long battle in which the caster had no chances to rest, and even with that chances are a caster would save enough sp to kill the melee.

Your kiding right?

Did i said that to balance pvp youd have to touch pve??

Right now, only removing Dot spells would be a huge improvement

And when i say 'remove Dot spells' i mean like BB. Make the spell unavailable in PvP.

Making searing light/ disintegrate/ frost lance/ melf arrows auto guided like MM removed the actual skill part of pvp.. its all auto aim... cant dodge, cant do anything. Stay still and hope you kill him first *HOW FUN IS THAT*

Theres no real way of making melee's good in pvp. It will always be a caster/divine thing. But good melee's always had there place and did give me good challenges. Now its pointless to play a melee, even a good one.. you literaly have no chance againts casters/divine...

Anyway

Im just sad about how it all turned out. And maybe one day tbine will read the PvP forums and do soemthing!!

*One can hope*

[one85_db]

So from what I have seen here this is what I am thinking:

Group based PVP with Crystal Cove style battlegrounds/areas – players have to farm for: tokens to open PvP, for ingredients to use in blueprint recipes, and for credits to pay your way into PvP. Ingredients and credits can be purchased in DDO Store. Battle Area set by level and groups will only be allowed to battle similar levels - spanning no more than 3 levels. Level 20 TRs will be confined to only battling level 20s as if epic and only epic scrolls will have a chance of being rewarded. Other TRs will be counted as one level higher than their current level.

Killing other players in PvP gives a chance for a scroll to drop that is a blueprint of a named item that player has in their possession. This will encourage players to only attack like toons. The blueprint can be used in a crafting recipe and turned into a bound to character copy of the named item. The blueprint scrolls will also be bound to character. Blueprints will be usable only if the toon has ran the quest in which the item came from; encouraging PvE and P2P gaming.

XP rewards for winning teams based on objectives. Objective areas are: PvE, have shrines, are safe zones, have trash mobs to deal with, and are timed to open. The timer starts once the objective is completed in previous objective area for both teams and at least three deaths have occurred for one team. Points are awarded for fastest completion times. Completed objective areas have "wall of death (shroud style) to discourage groups from waiting in PvE areas in order to spend little or no time in PvP areas. Objectives and challenges will require a balanced party with random checks for: Str, Dex, Int, Cha, or Wis and random traps. Objectives and challenges are random in each instance but both team's objectives and challenges will be exactly the same.

Safe zones can ONLY be entered after death, so that people cannot leave the battlefield to escape danger or reset their hp/sp at will. Safe zones will reset a toon to full hp/sp ONCE between objectives; each subsequent trip will result in a penalty to the amount of HP/SP regained with a maximum of 3 uses. A fourth use will take the toon out of battle, forcing the player to wait until the next objective or completion. Entering or leaving a safe zone resets all buffs; including ship buffs.

PvP areas will be set up as such: true sight does not detect sneaking toons, no critical strikes regardless of fort; but sneak attack is allowed on everything including undead pale masters, non-dispellable Deathward to everyone inside of the instance, auto-target will be disabled, as well as seeking for spells, and no resurrection casting will be allowed.

The SOLO healer is dedicated before battle, is unable to participate in PvP (immune to taking and dealing damage) and can only cure/heal (no radiant bursts or auras); but, if on the winning team, has a choice of loot with a chance of a scroll after battle (if the opposite team's healer had a named item) and will share in the XP gains of the party. The healer also has automatic SP and turn undead regeneration. Self healing/repairing will not be allowed even via potions and wands, and Warforge will be healed as any other race. This will encourage the group to stay together.

Reputation systems based on actions; stats start at 0 and can go negative or positive. With groups such as: melee, ranged (arrows or thrown weapons), casting, healing, and party win/loss ratio. Reputation will be based on a toon's time in PvP and performance of their party. Once a toon is too far in negative reputation then that toon is put on a timer (like a raid timer) during which time the toon cannot participate in PvP battles and the negative rep will climb back up to a higher negative level. Therefore keeping the carless or arrogant players and poorly set-up toons from affecting the better ones as much, but not cutting them out completely. If, for instance, a caster begins to kill melees with spells and does not take out another caster often enough, the caster will suffer reputation loss. The same rules apply for melee as well. When a like class takes out a like class then their reputation will go up in that category. This system will help to promote a natural balance and a much more fun environment for PvP. Reputation will also be subject to decay.

That is all I can think of, and every time I read it I see something else to add or change. If you like it then feel free to help me out with ideas and suggestions.

[one85_db]

Wow! Dead thread??? Did I kill it?

[Yajerman01]

There has been several discussions throughout ddo's time to generate an open slayer/pvp area there is nothing new here and to discuss options has been hashed out upon deaf ears which always gets shot down by the true PVER's. There is nothing new in this thread as well. My response to the OP is:

Yes I would pay for a package for a slayer type area, yes I would pay for PVP in of itself.

[Kalari]

Wow! Dead thread??? Did I kill it?

Nah I just had nothing else to add right now your ideas seem fine and all like I said im not a pvp fan just a person who realistically knows that sometimes people are attracted to different aspects of the game.

Now if they can put in these ideas without it hurting my pve environment I would feel selfish being obstinate against it. Honestly I just wanted to have a thread that wasnt started off with hostility where those who have actual ideas to better pvp could come and say their peace. So far there has not been arguing which is a nice change and even those who are anti pvp have kept it civil. It's not like this thread will change anything but you never know and a structured post is more likely to get noticed then pages of "is not/ is too" type ****.*

[Yajerman01]

*One can hope*

Sorry Made, Havent you heard, there is a new forum partisan which can be spammed on all PVP interests wiping out and or locking entire forum opinions on PVP. Hope, like a melee in the pit is completely voided; they do not even give PVP innterested people a forum lavander stone to withstand the barrages.

[protokon]

they do not even give PVP innterested people a forum lavander stone to withstand the barrages.

I'll sell you one cheap

[heyytoi]

I'll sell you one cheap

Don't!!

[Monkeytoe]

While I agree that loot is a major incentive I have big concerns if gear and items where implemented that actually force me to participate in any PvP or GvG. While the basis currently is PvE and nearly everybody can participate I would vote against anything that shift this due to loot that is in anyway more then flavor and only achievable through PvP.

That would probably be very disappointing to most DDO players, including me.

For now... some new CTF maps be nice. I would definitely buy some new CTF maps. More maps in general. There are 4 effin PvP maps. Come on.

Maybe some renown? Make it scale by level difference, say 5 points for a victory over someone the same level, 4 for victory over someone a level lower, 2 for someone 3 levels lower, -1 for someone 6 levels lower...

It isn't just PvP that's unbalanced, the whole game tends towards imbalances. It is a complex game, and complexity is naturally unpredictable and difficult. It is more balanced at low levels than at high, maybe because there is more potential for a player to really screw-up a character the higher level the character gets. Or maybe just because

Balancing how different character types interact with each other, looking at how different classes would directly compete with each other improves PvE as much as it improves PvP.

Also, every campaign I've ever played in has had some kind of PvP. So much so that I wouldn't be surprised if the phrase "Tavern Brawl" is taken directly from an AD&D glossary. All of my friends have (for obvious reasons, I'm sure) had the same experience. Because I don't personally know any people that are likely to say PvP was never part of their D&D, I believe that the people who say PvP has no place in the D&D setting are misguided. You know what has no place in the D&D setting? Spell Points.

But I'd buy new maps. Even if I was the only one who had them.

[Postumus]

As a VIP I already pay for content, and PvP is part of that content.


Your argument that PvPers should 'put their money where their mouths are' is nonsensical since most of them already do by paying for content, VIP subs, and DDO items.