Traps. make 'em scary.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'd say teleport them to a place that is further away then the entrance but whose path leads to after the trap so that they don't have to repeatedly repeat the repeating trap

that way it takes them longer to complete the quest without the trap being disabled but doesn't make it impossible to get by and so that they have to run through new badness at the same time. (Note make those mobs in the trap section not count towards Slayer Bonus)

Aesop

I would love to see larger dungeons with multiple paths to completions..... and teleport traps.

[Truga]

Very good idea.
Yes, make it so that zerging would be FASTER with a rogue in group.

That's an easy one. Simply make each trap sprung add one level of dungeon alert.

(Sorry, I just had to.)

[Truga]

I would love to see larger dungeons with multiple paths to completions..... and teleport traps.

No need for mass teleport traps (though some are obviously nice). Traps springing grates, pitfalls (with corridors back into the quest), and the likes should do just fine.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

No need for mass teleport traps (though some are obviously nice), traps springing grates, pitfalls (with corridors back into the quest), etc.

Who said anything about "mass" teleport?!











(Hey guys.... guys!... you coming?!.....GUYS!)

[zex95966]

for the noobs out there... not signed.

Making rogues an even tougher class to play would turn me off of ever making one. As it is, I don't plan to make one until I hit 20 and reincarnate.

I love everything about the rogue - the sneak damage, the neat rogue feats that they get, even the rogues Class Icon. I just hate the fact that without expensive gear, pots, and a bard for skill buffs in your party, you can't hit traps even with 16-18 starting int and maxing all your relevant skills at every opportunity available.

[Feithlin]

Make them teleport you back the the entrance...that'll scare most players.

Actually, that's a very good idea. Traps shouldn't make it impossible to complete without a rogue, but make it longer or harder is fine. Or on the contrary, rogues could make it shorter. We could imagine a very very hard door to unlock, garded by a very nasty trap, that would allow you to skip 50% of the dungeon. This would make the mechanic very attractive, without making the quest undoable.

[Feithlin]

for the noobs out there... not signed.

Making rogues an even tougher class to play would turn me off of ever making one. As it is, I don't plan to make one until I hit 20 and reincarnate.

I love everything about the rogue - the sneak damage, the neat rogue feats that they get, even the rogues Class Icon. I just hate the fact that without expensive gear, pots, and a bard for skill buffs in your party, you can't hit traps even with 16-18 starting int and maxing all your relevant skills at every opportunity available.

Right now, you can do all the traps, except some very rare exceptions, with 8 Int and at level gear. Heck, I can even do traps at level on norm (sometimes even on hard or elite) on my fighter who has ... 4 ranks (granted, to do it, I need the best gear for my level, max int item and GH).

[Truga]

Who said anything about "mass" teleport?!











(Hey guys.... guys!... you coming?!.....GUYS!)

Hahaha. I'm liking this. Kinda like shroud puzzle. Everyone gets teleported to their own spot.

[Aesop]

Hahaha. I'm liking this. Kinda like shroud puzzle. Everyone gets teleported to their own spot.

Or the poor Zerger who runs through the trap just as the rogue is disabling it... that would make me happy. He's stuck on the deadly path while the rest of the party is chilling out at the end of the quest.

Aesop

[GeneralDiomedes]

I think that we could use some quests with more ingenious/deadly/semi-random/time wasting traps, preferably with a really good reason to run them so the traps are all the more exciting if you don't have a rogue.

I also like traps that you can't disable, like Ghola-Fan, Crucible or Litany of the Dead. Really fun stuff.

The point again is to only have some quests like this, because the key to a happy player base is variety.

And, if you can't even abide some quests offending your sensibilities, then as the Beastie Boys say .. Check Your Head.

[GeneralDiomedes]

That's an easy one. Simply make each trap sprung add one level of dungeon alert.

Something along these lines is actually a great idea. Traps could release additional and/or more dangerous mobs as well.

[-Nismu-]

Grease traps that dispel FoM. on huge area with ambush .

[Syllph]

Basically, you ask for all the game to change to make some gimped PrE useful? Sorry, no thanks. It just seems a better idea to make the PrE useful by giving it more capabilities.

------------Read the whole post before making that decision, not three posts before you I wrote:

Yup agreed, I'm not shooting for increasing DCs to mean only a pure mechanic could do them, simply stating I want randomness and thrill as opposed to, "Hey everyone hug this wall the trap will miss you."

[Feithlin]

------------Read the whole post before making that decision, not three posts before you I wrote:

Nothing personal, I was just reacting to this specific statement:

My apologies I should have written the trapping-type rogues. Yes rogues are quite useful but the kind that specialize in traps are most definitely not.

Though it somehow contradicts:

Yup agreed, I'm not shooting for increasing DCs to mean only a pure mechanic could do them, simply stating I want randomness and thrill as opposed to, "Hey everyone hug this wall the trap will miss you."

Even if traps were changing, if any rogue could do it, it wouldn't help the usefulness of Mechanics PrE, because there would still be no reason to get this PrE (outside of flavor, which is always a good reason IMO) instead of assassin or even acrobat.
The problem of mecanics is not with traps, except if they were exceptionaly hard to disable (which could only be possible if the said trap were optional, like the idea of a shortcut for the quest), but with the fact that it focuses almost exclusively on them. Mecanics should involve more than trap handling, because it represents only 5% of the game.
Again, I'm not against some change on traps, but this shouldn't make rogues a necessity to achieve the quest, only a way to make it quicker or easier. Damage is probably not the best direction to search, because it only costs some sp or a scroll. Teleports, debuffs, alert increase all seem more effective ideas imo.

[Syllph]

Sigh, once again you're not actually reading the posts. The response I had given about Trapping-type rogues was in response to someone else. I had said rogues were useless and he got upset so I clarified by saying that I had meant the trapping-type rogues. I don't like the idea of a PrE being solely dedicated to traps. That's my personal opinion. We actually agree with each other but you're taking my quotes out of context. Again try reading the whole post please.

[Falco_Easts]

As others have said, the trick is not to make traps deaDlier, but add more options to trap failure. The teleport one was a good one. I like the idea of water traps. Fail one, dungeons fill with low level water so you have to wade. Fail 2 you ahve to swim for most of it. Fail 3 and dungeon is full of water and you better hope you have UA.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Sigh, once again you're not actually reading the posts. The response I had given about Trapping-type rogues was in response to someone else. I had said rogues were useless and he got upset so I clarified by saying that I had meant the trapping-type rogues. I don't like the idea of a PrE being solely dedicated to traps. That's my personal opinion. We actually agree with each other but you're taking my quotes out of context. Again try reading the whole post please.

Making a trap-only Rog is not smart IMO. What will he do the rest of the time he is not doing traps? What will he do when there is another Rogue in the party?

This has nothing to do with making a Mechanic IMO. Mechanics get SA too.
Mechanics get lots of skill points too. Especially a high Int Mechanic.

The trick is to make one that can also do other things than traps. They added thr repeaters beef to Mechanics to try to give them another option. But that is not the only way to make one that can also fight.



I am all for making traps interesting. Making them feared. But I am not for making a trap money a required part of a party to complete a quest.
There are plenty of ways to make traps an interesting part of the game......for everyone!

Traps are not in the game just for Rogues. They are in the game to present an interesting obsticle for a party overcome.
I wish the devs would realise that and think about how the traps will effect parties without a Rogue.

They have done a better job of this in more recent quests.

Players of Rogues need to get it out of their head that Rogues are only for traps. Cause at the very least, it ruins their fun the moment a second Rogue joins the party.

And Devs need to get it out of their minds that traps are only for Rogues.
Cause as soon a group without one goes into a dungeon with a trap....their fun can be ruined.

So if the Devs will make traps with all classes in mind.
And players will make Rogues with all dungeons and party mixes in mind.

Then the game gets a lot more fun....

for everyone involved.

[EustaceTrevelyan]

Remember that not every party has a rogue, and not every rogue is focused on traps. Need to allow for alternate ways to complete quest

Given that a 1 level rog splash putting points into cross-classed skills can max disable/search, there's no excuse for any rog ever not to at least do that, and have decent gear and tools. If you just want to make a class that does damage, why would you pick rogue? Not trying to be contentious at all, but this is the general opinion. You'll get blacklisted in a hurry if you can't do traps as a full rog.

[eonfreon]

Given that a 1 level rog splash putting points into cross-classed skills can max disable/search, there's no excuse for any rog ever not to at least do that, and have decent gear and tools. If you just want to make a class that does damage, why would you pick rogue? Not trying to be contentious at all, but this is the general opinion. You'll get blacklisted in a hurry if you can't do traps as a full rog.

Any Rogue can do traps to a certain degree and the ways traps are now they are fairly easy to get, but having "max ranks" in trap skills really can vary by a bit.

Let's say that there is a trap that requires "full focus and specialization". So beyond putting a "skill point/rank per level" a Trapsmith would then differ between Int scores, Enhancements points in Traps and/or Search, Mechanic PrE, Feats such as Nimble Fingers and Skill Focus: Traps, perhaps even Skill Focus: Search (can't disable it if you can't find it) and Skill Boost/Human Versatility Enhancements.

Now if a quest were to be designed for all that, the point spread becomes rather large from one who simply puts "max points/ranks" into skill points per level, and one who "dedicates" to it. So if a trap was unusually dangerous and difficult to find and disarm the more dedicated Rogue could succeed on a "1", while all others could have various degrees of chances from 95% which only blows a box on a "1" to low end, low int Rogue or Rogue splashes with no Feat/Enhancement dedication might fail 50% of the time. Most could reach a decent 80% let's say.

But regardless, except for the Rogue who can't blow up a box on a "1", the "overly-dedicated" if you will, every other one will likely have a chance to blow up that box on a "1", perhaps as high as a "5" due to gear issues or running out of boosts or something. Yes, great chance of success, but traps are "pass or fail" no middle ground. If that box goes "boom" that's it, kaput.

Now, if that is a trap that makes or breaks the dungeon, then that's it. Therefore, in it's current incarnation there are few traps in the game that are unavoidable if not disarmed. And that's a good thing.

So, yes, just about any run of the mill Rogue or Rogue splash can get just about every important trap in the game. By design. And most traps have been left to the point that even a failed and blown box will not impede progress, because that's just too much to put on the fate of one die roll.

So it's not that a Rogue can't do traps if he has the mildest interest in it, but that not every Rogue is trap focused enough to guarantee 100%, because it isn't needed. Making it absolutely needed would be a large mistake. That's why "alternate ways to complete a quest" is the best option.

On my Bard with Rogue splash, I sometimes hate being in groups that insist on getting all the traps for the xp bonus, because while they insist I spend my time going through the painfully slow process of searching and disabling animations (and the whole switching gear thing), they get to run off and actually have fun in the dungeon.

There are times I just tell them I got it for Evasion and Open Locks and avoid the traps altogether.

[Truga]

Or the poor Zerger who runs through the trap just as the rogue is disabling it... that would make me happy. He's stuck on the deadly path while the rest of the party is chilling out at the end of the quest.

Aesop

"Awesome dude, now we can do conquest/ransack! We'll be waiting before the end fight."