Casters are still ridiculously OP at all levels including epic

[Aaxeyu]

Politician's will often take only one point out of a message to further their point. Although you addressed that you feel casters are overpowered you did not address the fact that melee are also overpowered. However back when casters were nerfed so bad that their spells were almost ineffective I did not hear the call of the predominately melee players come to the rescue, no in fact I heard the opposite thing as several said things are as they should be.

Overall balance is good but if there is any tilt it should be in the favor of casters.

I wasn't even talking about whether casters are overpowered or not. I am saying that the idea that casters should be overpowered because they are overpowered in PnP is ridicolous.

Everyone can't be overpowered. It doesn't make any logical sense at all. Either there is balance or one is better than than the other.

I play both melee and casters in balanced way and feel that csters by nature should be a little more dominating than a melee character.

I also play both caster and melee, and I find the notion that one should dominate the other absolutely ridicolous.

[delsoboss]

Still going on?!?!?!?
Oh my ... stop right there guys melees and casters shouldn't be fighting between them.
U11 is coming with the fabled ranged combat pass and that's when the combined strenght of melees and casters will be humbled by the ranged combatants, that's what you should fight against!

[Kmnh]

I agree that the game is way too easy right now, but it's not a caster only thing. The only truly broken stuff casters have at their disposal are the DoTs.

Elite and Epic mobs need an upgrade to their saves, but don't think it will only affect the casters. The good melees will feel the effect from that, too.

[Tinco]

@shores11:

Predominately melee players are no longer leading the kill count and that makes them mad when a good caster is in the group. They want casters to haste them, rage them and make the monsters stand still while they beat on them.

This is an implication of the worst kind. You didn't 'say' that melees are dbags but you can't use language much more clearly to imply that you mean it. Stop playing the victim here and try to get some discussion-manners if you're smart enough to throw the wisdom of philosophers around.

[EDIT]Must I say that

A philosopher might say that when ones vocabulary runs out the result is either negative language or fighting. I am glad my opinion was not stated while standing next to you.

contains another highly offensive implication?


[another edit]

Oh well, thanks for the neg-rep. If I was 15 I would probably neg-rep you too until one of us cries. This is an implication and I clearly want to mark it as such. What an irony when I read your philosophical statement. This was another implication.

[Khurse]

@shores11:



This is an implication of the worst kind. You didn't 'say' that melees are dbags but you can't use language much more clearly to imply that you mean it. Stop playing the victim here and try to get some discussion-manners if you're smart enough to throw the wisdom of philosophers around.

??
I have no idea as to his/her intent, but to me it doesn't seem they're calling melees anything.
The poster pointing out that there weren't really any complaints from melees about casters mass hold having no SR check pre U9, or that casters could fairly easily get their DC's high enough to easily mass hold everything for the melees to beat down.
It was only once the instakills let more casters get higher up on the kill count that these posts started.

[Chai]

I don't think that's actually the issue tho. Casters are DPS now (not an issue in itself and they were before too but just not sustainable enough at times), but they are also capable of crowd control, damage mitigation, and healing all at the same time. .

Ah but it IS the issue. Many were wrapped up in their comfort zone where melee DPS was king. Now it isnt the case, and even though many still try to limit their groups to one caster, that caster many times crushes their previously dominant damage output.

Everyone wants to feel like they contributed and did an important job. Most casters don't need someone to heal them, can mitigate damage, can manage aggro (even want it at times), etc. Most melees rely on casters or consumables but most casters do not rely on melees and don't need so much in the ways of consumables.

We are playing post level 10 D&D, and in post level 10 D&D, this is how it is. I dont see DDO as what you just stated however, because any group of 6 can complete most quests and raids dont need caster DPS, -or- melee DPS, they just need DPS - the source matters not. Now that casters are contributing, they can no longer be held to the standard of 40+ CC DC or GTF0, heh. They are no longer slave to the melee's needs, and no longer there to merely prop up melee DPS.

Playing a caster is like a low risk / high reward option. Very self sufficient to the extreme. Faster completions means faster leveling and faster gear grinding.

Yeap.

I don't have an issue with a caster being able to do so much all for a limited period of time but the SP management restriction seems to have gone out the window. It's just too easy for casters to replenish SP and that is where the issue is.

I dont see the shift in power as an issue unless its more limiting to certain parties. The LAST shift in power was the issue where casters were limited to CC and buffing. This shift in power is not an issue IMO due to the fact that I do not see melee having a harder time getting groups / doing their jobs. I see casters having an easier time getting groups and doing their jobs.

I would like to see rest shrines removed. Not all of them, but enough that managing SP becomes more important. With the low cost of SLA's and free meta's on them, and echoes of power shrines only need to be there for a time shortly before a key encounter, or after instead so that the melee carries the caster to that encounter and then the caster earn his keep on that encounter.

SLAs in D&D are FREE. The low mana cost is to emulate this.

I would also like to see a bit more risk of physical damage being able to one shot players. Mitigating the physical damage on a melee but not possible on a caster. That might make S&B a more viable option at the same time.

If anything about casters is OP its the fact that they can heal themselves. This goes all the way back to 2007 or so however, and didnt start with the latest changes. It would be cool if they were more glass canon-ish rather than having 600 HP w/ full on healing capabilities. If casters ever needed melee for anything in D&D it was for damage mitigation and positioning, and if they ever needed divine for anything it was for healing. Otherwise, through 3.5, the true power in D&D is a well prepared arcane. Balanced by the fact that the biggest liability in D&D is an unprepared arcane, heh.

[shores11]

??
I have no idea as to his/her intent, but to me it doesn't seem they're calling melees anything.
The poster pointing out that there weren't really any complaints from melees about casters mass hold having no SR check pre U9, or that casters could fairly easily get their DC's high enough to easily mass hold everything for the melees to beat down.
It was only once the instakills let more casters get higher up on the kill count that these posts started.

+1 for you

Thank you and you are correct I was not calling melee anything. Unfortunately two players read what I wrote and then labeled it to be as offensive as they could. That is just unfortunate.

[Aaxeyu]

??
I have no idea as to his/her intent, but to me it doesn't seem they're calling melees anything.
The poster pointing out that there weren't really any complaints from melees about casters mass hold having no SR check pre U9, or that casters could fairly easily get their DC's high enough to easily mass hold everything for the melees to beat down.
It was only once the instakills let more casters get higher up on the kill count that these posts started.

What are you saying exactly, that becuase people didn't complain before they shouldn't be listened to when they complain after things have gotten worse? That's nonsense.

Instakill is very different from mass hold, because it's atleast dependant on the melees participation.

[Khurse]

What are you saying exactly, that becuase people didn't complain before they shouldn't be listened to when they complain after things have gotten worse? That's nonsense.

Instakill is very different from mass hold, because it's atleast dependant on the melees participation.

No, I'm saying that anyone here arguing that the fact casters can now kill things in epic is overpowered is nonsensical.

I am arguing that it's very odd that some people here are saying it's "not about the kill count" when the same people didn't complain about how easy epics were with a decent caster before.

Don't get me wrong, if people are arguing that epics should be made more difficult for *all* classes, that they should be impossible to zerg and only the best planned and played parties should succeed, then I'd agree.

If people are arguing that instakills have somehow made epics too easy, that casters now dominate, then they're wrong, casters have always made these quests easy.

Instakill is very different from mass hold, because it's atleast dependant on the melees participation.

So..are you arguing that if I mass hold everything and the melees get to kill it all, it's OK, but if I kill everything,and the melees kill less, it's not?
Because that seems very close to the "kill count" argument that you claim you're not making.

[Kmnh]

Instakilling isn't fun for the caster either. When I get the 7 guys on the chrono entrance in a single wail, I don't think "this is fun", I think "this game is getting dumber every day"

[Khurse]

Instakilling isn't fun for the caster either. When I get the 7 guys on the chrono entrance in a single wail, I don't think "this is fun", I think "this game is getting dumber every day"

I completely agree, but I find being able to instakill as well as mass hold a little more involved than mass hold/displace/rage/haste.

The problem (as I see it) is that epic doesn't work with how the classes are now.
Casters are going to be able to
A) Mass hold/ CC (boring)
-or-
B) Instakill/CC (still boring,if less boring to me)
-or-
C) Contribute significant damage. In which case why not just make us all Savants.

Personally I'd like to see Epics have better AI (if that's somehow possible) that can handle casting Dward /break enchantments/resurrection/heal and have the ability and inclination to target casters and healers.
If Mob AI could be made to dispel buffs, then immediately cast death/damaging/CC spells it would be better.

[Aaxeyu]

No, I'm saying that anyone here arguing that the fact casters can now kill things in epic is overpowered is nonsensical.

Casters have always been able to kill things in epic. Why do you think casters, and not melee, have always been the prefered class to solo farm epic scrolls?

I am arguing that it's very odd that some people here are saying it's "not about the kill count" when the same people didn't complain about how easy epics were with a decent caster before.

Don't get me wrong, if people are arguing that epics should be made more difficult for *all* classes, that they should be impossible to zerg and only the best planned and played parties should succeed, then I'd agree.

If people are arguing that instakills have somehow made epics too easy, that casters now dominate, then they're wrong, casters have always made these quests easy.

Epic was easy with a decent caster before, that is very true. But now it's even easier.

Your line of thinking does not follow logic I'm afraid. The fact that it was easy before does not in any way negate the possibility that it has become too easy now.

So..are you arguing that if I mass hold everything and the melees get to kill it all, it's OK, but if I kill everything,and the melees kill less, it's not?
Because that seems very close to the "kill count" argument that you claim you're not making.

If casters kill everything, there is nothing left for melees to do. With mass hold atleast both parties can participate. Then it becomes boring. It has nothing to do with 'kill count' or 'epeen'. Simply a lack of meaningul contribution towards the party's success.

On second thought it seems like it has got very much to do with kill count, but not from the melees...

[grodon9999]

I am saying that if casters kill everything, there is nothing left for melees to do. Then it becomes boring. It has nothing to do with 'kill count' or 'epeen'. Simply a lack of meaningul contribution towards the party's success.

We can still pike and collect the loot.

Saying there's nothing left for melee to do is a bit of hyperbole.

[Kmnh]

I completely agree, but I find being able to instakill as well as mass hold a little more involved than mass hold/displace/rage/haste.

The problem (as I see it) is that epic doesn't work with how the classes are now.
Casters are going to be able to
A) Mass hold/ CC (boring)
-or-
B) Instakill/CC (still boring,if less boring to me)
-or-
C) Contribute significant damage. In which case why not just make us all Savants.

Personally I'd like to see Epics have better AI (if that's somehow possible) that can handle casting Dward /break enchantments/resurrection/heal and have the ability and inclination to target casters and healers.
If Mob AI could be made to dispel buffs, then immediately cast death/damaging/CC spells it would be better.

I guess I'm biased because I never really played my caster in that way.

I always saw casters as the active, fun tanks. You grab aggro from everything and mitigate the damage in the ways that you can. I played that way before the minion debuff, and I still play like that now (my wail dc is 39 - I'm too lazy/cheap/stubborn to respec into necro)

Now, on most content, melees and divines are so powerful (or the mobs so weak) that you don't really need that role. I try to stick to the quests where my playstyle is still useful (sands ones, into the deep, and the raids).

On the other epics, I get to be a nuker, wooo! No melee has ever complained about my ice spells eating 2/3s of a mob's HP.

[Aashrym]

Ah but it IS the issue. Many were wrapped up in their comfort zone where melee DPS was king. Now it isnt the case, and even though many still try to limit their groups to one caster, that caster many times crushes their previously dominant damage output.

Casters did already have the better damage, they just couldn't sustain it long enough in some cases. My personal opinion is that we have gone too far.

We are playing post level 10 D&D, and in post level 10 D&D, this is how it is. I dont see DDO as what you just stated however, because any group of 6 can complete most quests and raids dont need caster DPS, -or- melee DPS, they just need DPS - the source matters not. Now that casters are contributing, they can no longer be held to the standard of 40+ CC DC or GTF0, heh. They are no longer slave to the melee's needs, and no longer there to merely prop up melee DPS.

In PnP D&D that's how it is. In PnP a dedicated DM can balance things out and provide customization to make individual characters feel important or provide contribution if necessary. Just because casters are powerful in PnP doesn't necessarily mean we need to follow suit in DDO.

I like the the fact casters can DPS now and can use death spells. I play casters and it's fun. I shouldn't need to play just casters for that game play experience tho.

The difference between 6 melee and 6 casters completing any quest is phenomenal. I like the glass cannon idea a bit more so there is more purpose to playing melee than simply wanting a melee character.

I dont see the shift in power as an issue unless its more limiting to certain parties. The LAST shift in power was the issue where casters were limited to CC and buffing. This shift in power is not an issue IMO due to the fact that I do not see melee having a harder time getting groups / doing their jobs. I see casters having an easier time getting groups and doing their jobs.

There's power shift and there's going too far. The problem is our ability to find a happy middle ground.

SLAs in D&D are FREE. The low mana cost is to emulate this.

That's not the issue, it's the high level spells that players can afford to use continuously. SLA's are great for letting casters contribute through an entire quest. The reason I would want to restrict SP renewal is so there needs to be more consideration before spamming 8th and 9th level meta's spells and make that into a tactical choice.

If anything about casters is OP its the fact that they can heal themselves. This goes all the way back to 2007 or so however, and didnt start with the latest changes. It would be cool if they were more glass canon-ish rather than having 600 HP w/ full on healing capabilities. If casters ever needed melee for anything in D&D it was for damage mitigation and positioning, and if they ever needed divine for anything it was for healing. Otherwise, through 3.5, the true power in D&D is a well prepared arcane. Balanced by the fact that the biggest liability in D&D is an unprepared arcane, heh.

I wasn't here in 2007, I was here at the beginning and left shortly into 2006, so I am not familiar with all of those changes. I'm not sure why there became a focus on self healing so much but I agree, that is part of the issue with casters.

That gets back to limiting the ability to renew SP a bit. Hit points in this game are unreal tho. I've been thinking about that for some time too.

The enhancements, and items, and CON availability means the base hit dice have less overall impact. I'm inclined to suggest limiting or eliminating some tiers of the toughness enhancements based on class, adding more tiers for some classes, and adjusting the amount of hit points on items. Changing the toughness on minos to be hp equal to bab for example. Something to increase hit point gap between melee and non melee anyway.

High hp casters with self healing, top DPS, area nuking, instant death, top CC, and best damage mitigation spells make other players feel like 5th wheels. Great when you are all other 4 wheels all in one but less so if you are the fifth.

Answered. In general I do like casters better and it nice to have more options when playing them. I thought the epic restrictions didn't need to be there and I think the epic restrictions that still exist don't need to be there. I don't like being an extra character just there to fill a slot and think we can do better, however.

I'm going to have a chuckle if the ranged pass goes too far suddenly leaves melee in the dust and we end up with ranged characters and casters. FPS DDO style.

[IWZincedge]

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[donfilibuster]

It's not good to generalize that all melees would not use tactics, etc. but the point was that there's indeed melees that still want casters to buff and cc so they can have an easy time, and mind it remains a valid tactic to use.

There's also a slight new trend going in the opposite way, where a buffer-holder would be asked to have good nuking.
After all, if there's all the new toys why not use them.

[Fenrisulven6]

This:

Instakilling isn't fun for the caster either. When I get the 7 guys on the chrono entrance in a single wail, I don't think "this is fun", I think "this game is getting dumber every day"

[Postumus]

If anything about casters is OP its the fact that they can heal themselves.

This is the number one thing that is OP about arcanes. Their 'power' level is fine except for this.

The only thing worse would be self-healing barbs. Although FvS are getting closer every day.

[pHo3nix]

Instakilling isn't fun for the caster either. When I get the 7 guys on the chrono entrance in a single wail, I don't think "this is fun", I think "this game is getting dumber every day"

And what's the difference between insta-kills and masshold+dreamspitter? It's just faster, but even before u9 when your enchantment DC was 40+ epics were a joke anyway. Now casters can do more things, so sad melees can still find an enchantment/conjuration archmage that hold mobs so they can beat on them, and casters that were so bored pre u9 can wail/cod/fod or nuke mobs. It's not perfect but it makes different play styles possible