Casters are still ridiculously OP at all levels including epic

[ProdigalGuru]

The patch only puts deathblock on orange names.

It doens nothing to stopp instant death farming from lvls 1-20 and in epics.

Not to mention AOE nuking farming that is a 2nd fallback should they ever re-nerf deathblock in epics.

The thread has a general theme that casters solo farming scrolls in Epics is bad, and eChrono gets brought up a lot.

There has also been talk about there being quite a few orange-names in there (I have no reason to farm eChrono, so I wouldn't know).

Devs have probably been following this thread, and decided to make it harder to do so as a result of the uproar.

I am well aware of what the change entailed, I know how to read patch notes.

Farming levels 1-10? You are doing it wrong.

Instant Death farming levels 10-20? This has been going on since Finger of Death was implemented.

Instant Death farming Epics? The patch addressed this by putting DW back on some mobs, so what is the problem?

[pHo3nix]

This. Giving mobs the ability to cast the spells would be the right solution. 2nd best would be to increase their saves against certain types of magic. Worst would be to give blanket immunity. And of course we all know where Turbine lands every single time.

The tiefling cleric in the first fight in eChrono casts mass DW as soon as she spawns if you are not fast enough to kill her..and she heals too..so mobs already cast right spells.

About golems: yes, they should still be immune to magic except disintegration and some other spells, it was a shame they changed them to only be resistant to elemental damage. But talking about nerfs, they also nerfed curse, blindness, flesh to stone, etc.. they used to be permanent and it was right, now they are just a joke when the mobs cast them on you.

@Crazy: great ideas there, just go back to pre U9 where casters only buff you and hold the mobs for you so you can kill them

I'm all for a more difficult game, but it doesn't mean nerfing casters to the point the only thing they can do is buff.

[crazydamage]

The tiefling cleric in the first fight in eChrono casts mass DW as soon as she spawns if you are not fast enough to kill her..and she heals too..so mobs already cast right spells.

About golems: yes, they should still be immune to magic except disintegration and some other spells, it was a shame they changed them to only be resistant to elemental damage. But talking about nerfs, they also nerfed curse, blindness, flesh to stone, etc.. they used to be permanent and it was right, now they are just a joke when the mobs cast them on you.

@Crazy: great ideas there, just go back to pre U9 where casters only buff you and hold the mobs for you so you can kill them

I'm all for a more difficult game, but it doesn't mean nerfing casters to the point the only thing they can do is buff.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Most people that know how to farm chrono put a web on top of the caster and energy drain + flesh to stone him as soon as the mobs spawn. (or Finger/wail/PWK him now in u9).

The rest of the mobs are melees archers that do absolutely nothing, there is a evocation caster that also does nothing, and a green devil that is a pain.

Mobs shouldn't have to CAST dw. mobs should have DW On them already.

Do you run half way through a quest and then cast deathward or do u do all your buffs before the quest starts

[crazydamage]

I observed the clerical monsters right now casts DW, resists, buffs and heals on each other.

Only items and enhancements stack. One caster damage item does not stack with another caster damage item. i.e. superior potency VI does not stack with superior combustion VI for fire spells. Metamagics costs heavy spell points and should stack. Spell crits should stack. Melee criticals already stack with another melee's crit, wouldn't it? There are no exceptional potency items yet.

Now, why should currently melee seekers item stack? With the +6 seeker hat or +10 seeker epic Marilith chain with the +2 exceptional trinket.

There are all sorts of +attack/+damage items stack with each other. Profane bonus, competence bonus, moral bonus, enhancement bonus, ... they all stack. Caster(s) get no such benefits; and of course, they stack with criticals.

Emili was talking about an AP Enhancement line that gives +50%
Along with maximize + empower giving another 150%
Along with potency /eardweller giving another 50-100%

Last time I checked melees got things like "superior weapon specialization" which gave like +2 to dmg which is a bout a 5% boost in dmg.

[crazydamage]

The monster can, but every monster? Even those rats and jellies?



Roll/TR yourself a caster and experience rejection instead of posting here.



They DO pay the price. They have lesser +to hit still with divine power. They don't get the barbarian or Kensei benefits.

I am certain that group leaders will still take a barbarian or a fighter and even gimped versions of them before even considering a general rogue or bard with divine power clickies. Don't you agree?

NO. they didnt pay any price. All they did was trade one PRE benefits for another PRE benefits.

They paid absolutely zero cost in terms of BAB.

[crazydamage]

I TR'ed my wizard.

He is currently level 5.

I am completely naked aside from the Korthos Archivist set and the Greater Cunning Trinket from crystal cove and the spearblock bracers from korthos.

I do not even have a potency item in my hand, I am using a +1 cold touch quarterstaff.
I do not even have a vibrant purple ioun stone.

I can 1 shot every single mob in the depths chain with a maximized fireball. I can 2 shot all the rednames with a maximized frost lance followed by a maximized fireball.

I zerged the entire depths chain 7 times doing nothing but run to the boss and 2 shot him (DEVIOUS BONUS +7%!) (occasionally had to stop to 2 shot an orange name or there were a couple doors that would only open when u 1 shot a mob of trogs with a fireball).

There were shrines but I never used them. The exception is the 1 shrine in part 3 before the red named earth elemental boss.

Wizards are pretty loltastic.

[crazydamage]

Oh, and that was with 2 person scaling, since I was lvling with my fvs buddy

[pHo3nix]

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Most people that know how to farm chrono put a web on top of the caster and energy drain + flesh to stone him as soon as the mobs spawn. (or Finger/wail/PWK him now in u9).

The rest of the mobs are melees archers that do absolutely nothing, there is a evocation caster that also does nothing, and a green devil that is a pain.

Mobs shouldn't have to CAST dw. mobs should have DW On them already.

Do you run half way through a quest and then cast deathward or do u do all your buffs before the quest starts

I cannot explain myself or you cannot read: i wrote: "The tiefling cleric in the first fight in eChrono casts mass DW as soon as she spawns if you are not fast enough to kill her". So yes, you can just web, dance, pwk, fod her, but if you are not fast she casts it, is it clear now?

I cast buffs once inside the quest, casting them before the quest starts would be pretty pointless

So you just want to go back to the blanket immunities..just find a nannybot, a buffbot/mass-holder to come with you in your epic quests, so you can lead the kill count, be happy and stop complaining about casters I can assure you i found more buffbots and healbots than well played casters, so it shouldn't be hard to find them

[sirgog]

The tiefling cleric in the first fight in eChrono casts mass DW as soon as she spawns if you are not fast enough to kill her..and she heals too..so mobs already cast right spells.

Even if you let her get that mass DW off (she tends to pull it off about 25% of the time I farm that), she's easy to burn down - she'll die (through her self healing) to a 3-stack of either level 5 DoT if you are specced for that element. If you aren't specced for it, she'll die to the 4th casting of that DoT.

TBH tho, I find duo scroll farming is now much more efficient. One self-healing melee (to deal with orange nameds or things that cast Deathward before you can stop them), one arcane.

[pHo3nix]

Even if you let her get that mass DW off (she tends to pull it off about 25% of the time I farm that), she's easy to burn down - she'll die (through her self healing) to a 3-stack of either level 5 DoT if you are specced for that element. If you aren't specced for it, she'll die to the 4th casting of that DoT.

Yes, but sometimes she gets other mobs in her mass DW I'm not saying it's hard, my lol wizard can solo it, but was pointing out that the mechanic to let mobs cast useful spells is already in place, just expand it or make it better, there's no need to go back to blanket immunities.

[Truga]

Yes, but sometimes she gets other mobs in her mass DW I'm not saying it's hard, my lol wizard can solo it, but was pointing out that the mechanic to let mobs cast useful spells is already in place, just expand it or make it better, there's no need to go back to blanket immunities.

Pretty much this.

[taurean430]

I TR'ed my wizard.

He is currently level 5.

I am completely naked aside from the Korthos Archivist set and the Greater Cunning Trinket from crystal cove and the spearblock bracers from korthos.

I do not even have a potency item in my hand, I am using a +1 cold touch quarterstaff.
I do not even have a vibrant purple ioun stone.

I can 1 shot every single mob in the depths chain with a maximized fireball. I can 2 shot all the rednames with a maximized frost lance followed by a maximized fireball.

I zerged the entire depths chain 7 times doing nothing but run to the boss and 2 shot him (DEVIOUS BONUS +7%!) (occasionally had to stop to 2 shot an orange name or there were a couple doors that would only open when u 1 shot a mob of trogs with a fireball).

There were shrines but I never used them. The exception is the 1 shrine in part 3 before the red named earth elemental boss.

Wizards are pretty loltastic.

And pre update 9 I could do the exact same thing on an arcane. Again, your platform regarding your argument is very weak. The only difference between update 9 and pre update 9 lies in the amount of times I would need to stop and shrine.

You are running your TR in a two man group with another caster (divine). Your choice of grouping has you in the advantageous position of not having to select spells you wouldn't normally use; nor expending up to 5 times the spell points you normally would in a quest. You have no one with you that requires buffing. You are running instances with minimal scaling. You are using a trinket that gives you additional sp as well as increased dc's in two different schools of magic.

All in all this argument you have is very weak. By way of your own description you have taken the easiest route you can think of to succeed. This is not what the average caster has to deal with in this game. These changes were implemented with the average caster in mind.

Melee are not the same as Casters, nor is it the other way around. They function differently. You seem to have issues with this. For the life of me, despite your posts I fail to see why. A skilled player behind any class will dominate content. How many 400+ comment threads exist taking issue with stacking sources of stregnth and damage for melee? Because last I checked, the high mark for casting was 52. Compare that with 103+ str on a melee, even if it is limited by clicky/consumable timers.

[Nefariosis]

This is just an observation that I've made as I read through this forum. Crazy, whenever I see someone make a valid counter argument you tell them they have no idea what they are talking about. Honestly casters are supposed to be better then melees at some things. In fact at lvl 20 casters are supposed to be considered as powerful as a lesser god. And to address your achievement of soloing the depths chain, well done you can maximize spells. Bet you cant keep it up for very long though(also account for the fact that you are a TR and have superior knowledge of the quest whereas a new player would find this quest most likely difficult and interesting.) Your arguments are very one sided IMHO

[Matuse]

Last time I checked melees got things like "superior weapon specialization" which gave like +2 to dmg which is a bout a 5% boost in dmg.

Then you need your eyes examined. Because melees get things like Improved Critical, a Strength score (high casting attribute does not increase spell damage), Power Attack, Cleave, Smite Evil, Rage, A second weapon in their offhand, LitII, MinII, RadII, Vaccuum II (trap the soul ignores all hp restrictions and death ward...still), Bloodstone/Marilith Chain, Sneak Attack, Death Frenzy, Bursting ToD Rings, (Greater) Shocking Blow...etc...etc...etc.

All of which adds up to one hell of a lot more than a 5% boost in damage.

Go out with a +5 longsword on a 10 str naked featless melee, and compare it to a dual Lit II Khopesh user completely decked out. What's do you think the DPS differential is? 500%? Probably higher.

[Teech]

How many 400+ comment threads exist taking issue with stacking sources of stregnth and damage for melee? Because last I checked, the high mark for casting was 52. Compare that with 103+ str on a melee, even if it is limited by clicky/consumable timers.

There isn't probably because a 103+ str melee still can't do as well in quest as a 52 casting stat caster. That sounds like a problem doesn't it?

Honestly casters are supposed to be better then melees at some things. In fact at lvl 20 casters are supposed to be considered as powerful as a lesser god.

Does this mean that everyone who roles melees should expect them to be gimps? Since, you know, casters are lesser gods at 20 and melees aren't?

Everyone keeps saying that casters are supposed to be better at some things. This implies that melees are better at some other things as well. Could I ask what things melees are better in?

I'm not here to whine or cry, but I do think that the current state of casters mean that they are able to do without melees right now and I think that is a flaw in game design.
Why do I think they can do without melees? How many all caster raids are we seeing? How many all melee raids? How many casters soloing epics? How many melees soloing epics? Again, I'm curious, what is it that melees are better than casters at?

[licho]

I would not stay if Arcanes are overpowered or not, for me it was always the easies class to be awesome with and dominate quest. In the same time, they are runs when others performs better. To much player/build/gear difference factor for me to be sure.

However, i do not agree to allow one class to be demi gods, just becouse it was late 50' theme.
Its a game, its even different than PnP (change from slot system to mana-pool is a HUGE boost for caster), in game everyone want to "be useuful". Of course ppl like many other things (like 'i want lead killzcountz') but feeling a need to "be usefull" is nothing to blame. If one class is just ok, and other is demi god then the first could feel optional. Which is not a good desing.
So basicly even if its Player vs DUngeon, classes should be more or less balanced.

Some brainstorm:
Maybe its not a problem with arcanes but with non magic users. Casters can nuke/buff/CC/AoE, often in various and effective ways, all it with minimal efort. So maybe Devs should just open to nocasters a valuable options for nuke/buff/CC/AoE?

Then you need your eyes examined. Because melees get things like Improved Critical, a Strength score (high casting attribute does not increase spell damage), Power Attack, Cleave, Smite Evil, Rage, A second weapon in their offhand, LitII, MinII, RadII, Vaccuum II (trap the soul ignores all hp restrictions and death ward...still), Bloodstone/Marilith Chain, Sneak Attack, Death Frenzy, Bursting ToD Rings, (Greater) Shocking Blow...etc...etc...etc.

All of which adds up to one hell of a lot more than a 5% boost in damage.

Go out with a +5 longsword on a 10 str naked featless melee, and compare it to a dual Lit II Khopesh user completely decked out. What's do you think the DPS differential is? 500%? Probably higher.

So can we compare lv1 arcane spamming niacs to lv20 toped spamming polar ray?

Bringing out of context examples is out of context.

[Matuse]

So can we compare lv1 arcane spamming niacs to lv20 toped spamming polar ray?

Bringing out of contex examples is out of contex.

Pot, meet Kettle. You're both black.

Difference being, I wasn't out of context. Crazydamage is trying to bring up feats and gear for spellcasters like melee don't get a huge plethora of toys of their own. He's wrong. Really wrong. Fantastically wrong. Couldn't be more wrong if he spent the rest of his life trying.

Also, the word is contexT. With a T at the end.

[taurean430]

There isn't probably because a 103+ str melee still can't do as well in quest as a 52 casting stat caster. That sounds like a problem doesn't it?

Yes, but not in the way you are suggesting. My experiences post update 9 on my melee toons are not filled with the type of desparity and unbalance that are described in these forums. In fact, I've still had quite a bit of fun. The exception being having to figure out how to get my stun dc to a more acceptable level. I feel the need to mention here that since casters are different a 103+ casting stat wouldn't translate to more damage. It would create a dc to end all spell dc's though on related spells.

I really think that people who play primarily melee toons need to reevaluate and consider the steep amount of advantages in game content that favor only those classes. The amount of backlash present due to casters being able to instakill stuff is staggering really.

Consider as well that in order to achieve a 52 casting stat it requires far more in terms of time and investment than it does for a melee to achieve a 103+str. Strength directly impacts the amount of damage melee does. Gear as well. However, any melee has a variety of choices of stacking enhancements, gear, weapons, etc to achieve the high damage they do. And they are far more common than a 3+TR sporting high spell pen and dc. The major majority of caster gear doesn't even stack.

[Teech]

Yes, but not in the way you are suggesting.

Um. What is the way that I am suggesting? I did not realise I was being suggestive.

My experiences post update 9 on my melee toons are not filled with the type of desparity and unbalance that are described in these forums. In fact, I've still had quite a bit of fun.

I have fun on my melee as well. I'm not crying doom, but I do see that there is imbalance (imo).

The exception being having to figure out how to get my stun dc to a more acceptable level. I feel the need to mention here that since casters are different a 103+ casting stat wouldn't translate to more damage. It would create a dc to end all spell dc's though on related spells.

Yes. Higher casting stat would not = more damage. Partly because you can't get more damage than an insta-kill...
But it does equal a heck of a lot more survivability through CC....

I really think that people who play primarily melee toons need to reevaluate and consider the steep amount of advantages in game content that favor only those classes.

What is that exactly? I asked in my previous post.
What is the advantage that melees have that casters seem to know all about?
I can't see any personally. Burst dmg? Nope. AOE? Nope. CC? Nope.
Survivability? Maybe, but Displacement and Stoneskin?
Sustained Damage. Maybe, but seriously, this is only relevant when sustained dmg is needed. What is there that a melee can do that a caster can't? Is someone going to bring up encumberance?

Consider as well that in order to achieve a 52 casting stat it requires far more in terms of time and investment than it does for a melee to achieve a 103+str. Strength directly impacts the amount of damage melee does. Gear as well. However, any melee has a variety of choices of stacking enhancements, gear, weapons, etc to achieve the high damage they do. And they are far more common than a 3+TR sporting high spell pen and dc. The major majority of caster gear doesn't even stack.

I have no idea if this is true. Are you sure?
Even if it were, do you realise that this non-stacking gear is actually a benefit to casters? Especially since with that lower main stat, casters are still as effective (if not more so) than melees. Needing a lower main stat to be as effective as a melee that needs a higher main stat means that the melee has to sacrifice all gear slots to pump up one stat while casters can actually use their gear slots for other purposes.

I have no idea about end game to be honest, so this is not my main point.

I would sincerely in all honesty like to know what is it that melees do that casters cannot. Honestly. I'm not a know-it-all vet so there is much I do not know.
People keep throwing up this idea of different strengths. What is a melees strength right now exactly? If I knew that, I could play my melee better by keeping to his strengths.

[taurean430]

Um. What is the way that I am suggesting? I did not realise I was being suggestive.

They say trolling is an art form.