Casters are still ridiculously OP at all levels including epic

[crazydamage]

AOE nuking has been a staple of caster "roles" since day one man, that doesn't even belong on a list of "problems" with arcanes

Dungeon Alert shouldn't be a "balancing" factor since it's supposed to be a deterrent, not a play-style. It's also not a class issue, but a design issue with DA. Ask for DA to increase SR, not for a nerf on casters.

DoT stacking is WAI and yes it can do lots of damage, but it takes time to get there due to cooldowns. It's not useable on trash due to the time constraint, so is really just a boss dps tool. As for SLA's, they're also WAI for the most part (except for a few targetting bugs) and are designed mostly for trash and splash.

UMD healing on sorc? Really? You're including this? If you're going to do that you have to ask for an across the board UMD healing nerf on every class in the game, pretty much removing 95% of the usefulness of the UMD skill. It's the fault of all arcanes that I spent skill points in UMD (a CROSS CLASS skill)? Wow, just wow.

"Ability to bypass /shortcut quests with invis/haste/jump/featherfall/ddoor/shadowalk
Ability to teleport everywhere saving you time."?....really? All of these are available to anyone who sinks points into UMD or who picks up a few potions...featherfall is even available permanently on items, or as a toggle for monks.

You're really starting to reach far into left field with the bulk of this list.

AOE nuking is fine, except when there literally is a shrine after every fight. In which case you AOE nuke in every fight. aka all of fens aka all of chrono aka shroud/tod where you literally can shrine after every fight.
AOE nuking is also fine, if that is the particular role that casters fill. AOE nuking is not fine when casters do that plus every other role in the game.

Dungeon alert should be a balancing factor because that's a mechanism to designed (poorly) to prevent "too fast" completions of quests i.e. running past everything, picking off the boss and leaving. So yes, dungeon alert should increase SR.

Again, DOT stacking is NOT fine because casters should not be able to fulfill every role in the game (Nuking, sustained nuking, sustained dps, buffer, utility).

Arcanes have better self healing than every melee class in the game and any class that isnt a fvs/cleric/bard. Are you disputing this?

Shadow walk and DDoor are not avalable to non arcanes. DDoor in particular can bypass many things. The other spells, Jump, Invis, Haste, while available as clickies to Veteran players, or in a crappy limited duration/ lesser effect potion form are still very nice while leveling.

Convenience is a form of balance too. Add up all the time you spend running everywhere on a melee vs Greater teleport / teleport on a arcane. In game times used to accomplish the same task = balance.


Lets look at the most recent Crystal Cove event:
Arcanes had DDoor (Free kobold teleport)
Haste kobolds
Dance/fw fire and forget to kill all mobs.
Delayed blast fireball to 1-2 shot mobs of 6 guys.
Energy drain / finger to kill orange names

What could melee do. Walk up to 1 mob of 5 guys and whack at them for 30 seconds.

What was before that?
Mabar event
Everyone smart player was out there nuking / healing the undead on arcane or fvs/cleric.

Fact is arcanes (and possibly fvs) need across the board nerfs (or across the board melee buffs).

[Tortavil]

As my last post to summarize.

across the board caster nerfs...BAD
instadeath spells as a viable tactic in epics for high DC'd necro people....GOOD
Current form of instadeath in epics....NEEDS SOME TWEAKS

[Aashrym]

Instant death isn't the only problem with casters in the current game. In my original post somewhere or one of my threads I mention these over and over.

AOE nuking.
Dungeon alert affecting AC but not SR/Saves
DOT stacking for ridiculous dmg on raid bosses +SLAs
Ability to self heal (PM. Recon UMDsorc)
Ability to bypass /shortcut quests with invis/haste/jump/featherfall/ddoor/shadowalk
Ability to teleport everywhere saving you time.

Arcanes (and arguably fvs) need an across the board nerf or melees need a buff in many areas besides instant death.

Dungeon alert impacting casters isn't hard to buy into. It's not like I don't run it up to save SP and hit larger groups because that works well for me.

DOT stacking on raid bosses and SLA's I'm not not concerned about. My opinion is casters should be the best damage option on bosses. The flaw in the system before was casters had little to do besides hold and buff in some content. I think we do have an improvement now. Where I see a flaw in the new system is that casters on not such glassy glass cannons and don't have much incentive for resource management much of the time.

Ability to self heal really does exist for other classes too, but in varying amounts. It's not like a pally or rogue can't get good UMD too. Potions do exist and even if it's suboptimal it can be done.

Using invis etc is mostly available to melees too. Ddoor might be the one relevant item on that list but can be over come.

Teleport isn't a huge concern between scrolling it (UMD), airship travel, time pendant, or teleport rods.


The first thing you mentioned, the AoE nuking, that is what casters do. Whether it's instant death or high damage is irrelevant. Most of the things on your list I would consider minor but this is something where they are strong and isn't likely to change any time soon. That get's back to restricting the ability to do it by restricting the ability to replenish SP as easily.

On that same note, there will always be an optimal killing method. It was sustained melee DPS while casters buffed and held. Now in theory it's caster burst DPS while melees tank and add sustained DPS, which is more similar to the game roots. Turbine will never please everyone.

Dungeon alert changes sounds like a reasonable change for incentive to slow casters down. Even higher aggro from casting might be another way, but that's likely to end up as a kiting benefit. More ranged damage from enemies might work better with higher aggro.

We don't necessarily need to buff or nerf anything if we can find a game mechanic that can control the incentive to blow spell points and make better use of tanking when mages are blowing spell points.

Just another 2cp with some random thought.

EDIT: I see others were jumping on that list too. I see a couple of good points on it, many minor points IMO.

[slimkj]

AOE nuking.
Dungeon alert affecting AC but not SR/Saves
DOT stacking for ridiculous dmg on raid bosses +SLAs
Ability to self heal (PM. Recon UMDsorc)
Ability to bypass /shortcut quests with invis/haste/jump/featherfall/ddoor/shadowalk
Ability to teleport everywhere saving you time.

For goodness' sake - look again at what you're asking to be changed here. It's not unlike insisting melees never use a greensteel. You've stepped beyond rational into unsubstantiated whining. Teleport. Really?

Casters have different skills and abilities to melees, get over it.

[crazydamage]

Dungeon alert impacting casters isn't hard to buy into. It's not like I don't run it up to save SP and hit larger groups because that works well for me.

DOT stacking on raid bosses and SLA's I'm not not concerned about. My opinion is casters should be the best damage option on bosses. The flaw in the system before was casters had little to do besides hold and buff in some content. I think we do have an improvement now. Where I see a flaw in the new system is that casters on not such glassy glass cannons and don't have much incentive for resource management much of the time.

Ability to self heal really does exist for other classes too, but in varying amounts. It's not like a pally or rogue can't get good UMD too. Potions do exist and even if it's suboptimal it can be done.

Using invis etc is mostly available to melees too. Ddoor might be the one relevant item on that list but can be over come.

Teleport isn't a huge concern between scrolling it (UMD), airship travel, time pendant, or teleport rods.


The first thing you mentioned, the AoE nuking, that is what casters do. Whether it's instant death or high damage is irrelevant. Most of the things on your list I would consider minor but this is something where they are strong and isn't likely to change any time soon. That get's back to restricting the ability to do it by restricting the ability to replenish SP as easily.

On that same note, there will always be an optimal killing method. It was sustained melee DPS while casters buffed and held. Now in theory it's caster burst DPS while melees tank and add sustained DPS, which is more similar to the game roots. Turbine will never please everyone.

Dungeon alert changes sounds like a reasonable change for incentive to slow casters down. Even higher aggro from casting might be another way, but that's likely to end up as a kiting benefit. More ranged damage from enemies might work better with higher aggro.

We don't necessarily need to buff or nerf anything if we can find a game mechanic that can control the incentive to blow spell points and make better use of tanking when mages are blowing spell points.

Just another 2cp with some random thought.

EDIT: I see others were jumping on that list too. I see a couple of good points on it, many minor points IMO.

A rogue COULD UMD a scroll. Can he fight with a scroll in his hand?
A Sorc COULD UMD a scroll. Can he fight with a scroll in his hand?

Do you see the difference now?

As for "casters are OP gods in PNP Bla bla bla bla"

DDO is an MMO implementation of a game along the lines of Diablo, WoW using the d20 system and nothing more.

Do you think anyone would ever play a lvl 20 fighter in a PNP game?? Hell no.
Would lvl 20's even be bothering to run quests like they do in ddo slaying hords of monsters? HELL no they would have servants or hire armies/ mercenaries to do all that work. A lvl 20 in PNP would and should be a King. He would have an army of 1000 guys, he wouldnt be running around the harbor or the IQ slaying mephits or whatever garbage monsters.

If a boss needed to be eliminated he would simply Wish it out of existence, or scrye and teleport in fully buffed, ending the fight with 5 seconds and then teleport out.

I dont know why "casters are OP in pnp so thats fine in ddo" is even a relevant argument.

[Rodasch]

Dungeon alert should be a balancing factor because that's a mechanism to designed (poorly) to prevent "too fast" completions of quests i.e. running past everything, picking off the boss and leaving. So yes, dungeon alert should increase SR.

Reread what I wrote. I agreed Dungeon alert should increase SR if it's going to be a mechanic in the game. I'm not a fan of DA at all, but if it's there it should be fairly administered.

Again, DOT stacking is NOT fine because casters should not be able to fulfill every role in the game (Nuking, sustained nuking, sustained dps, buffer, utility).

When was the last time you saw a LFM asking for healers that was looking for arcanes specifically? We can't fill every roll in the game effectively any more than a UMDing rogue can. Should we nerf rogue dps too since they can cast buffs, nukes, heals, rezzes, and utility spells from scrolls?

Arcanes have better self healing than every melee class in the game and any class that isnt a fvs/cleric/bard. Are you disputing this?

Yes I'm disputing this. The only arcanes with the better self healing are warforged and pale masters. All other casters have the exact same self healing as any melee, which is potions or UMD (or Half elf dilly feats, which are also available to melees)

Your problem is you paint all arcanes with the broad brush of the best single cases and act as if anything any one iteration of class/race arcane can do that any arcane can do it...that's simply not the case.

Shadow walk and DDoor are not avalable to non arcanes. DDoor in particular can bypass many things. The other spells, Jump, Invis, Haste, while available as clickies to Veteran players, or in a crappy limited duration/ lesser effect potion form are still very nice while leveling.

My rogue who casts shadow walk and ddoor begs to differ with your opinion here. Ddoor is available on orien dragon marks, and scrolls buyable through AH. Shadow walk is available on scrolls vendor purchasable in portable hole (and perhaps another location or two). UMD allows use of both spells, and orien dragonmarks allow no-fail use of ddoor for any class of the right race.

Jump, invis, haste, etc are available to newer players as well as veteran players, not just through clickies but through potions, scrolls, and wands. UMD covers the scrolls and wands (or helf dilly) and potions don't even need UMD. There are also festival cookies which provide massive buffing and spell casting ability to even pure melees that can be bought from AH or simply stocked up on during festivult by anyone with the desire to do so.

Convenience is a form of balance too. Add up all the time you spend running everywhere on a melee vs Greater teleport / teleport on a arcane. In game times used to accomplish the same task = balance.

I spend almost no time running anywhere on any toons, teleport and Greater Teleport are much less powerful now that guild ship navigators can teleport you to almost anywhere you want to go, or at least very close to it. Failing that there are infinitely available teleport and greater teleport scrolls (my melees carry stacks of them and UMD them).

Lets look at the most recent Crystal Cove event:
Arcanes had DDoor (Free kobold teleport)
Haste kobolds
Dance/fw fire and forget to kill all mobs.
Delayed blast fireball to 1-2 shot mobs of 6 guys.
Energy drain / finger to kill orange names

Orange names will be immune to finger after Monday. Ddoor is not an issue as I outlined above. Haste is available for cove event many ways. Dance is available through clickies and even melee guards for non-casters, Firewall got nerfed, etc etc....

On top of all that, Firewall+disco "fire and forget" is one of the reasons they did the entire u9 spell revamp, to nerf that...so what gain to you hope to achieve by citing that in a discussion of how overpowered you feel casters are post u9?

What could melee do. Walk up to 1 mob of 5 guys and whack at them for 30 seconds.

What was before that?

Unimaginative melees maybe. There are more options than just dps til dead.

Mabar event
Everyone smart player was out there nuking / healing the undead on arcane or fvs/cleric.

And yet my melees did just fine in that event using disruption weapons and autoattack or holy/pg weapons (maybe flaming burst for mummies).

Fact is arcanes (and possibly fvs) need across the board nerfs (or across the board melee buffs).

Fact is, the first half of the quoted sentence violates forum policies as do many of your posts simply because they imply strongly the very same thing as you explicitly stated here.

I have no problem with seeking melee improvements to bring them in line with where they should be, power wise, in relation to content and other archetype classes, but if you want to be in all ways equal to casters, you're playing the wrong game.

Try crusading for your improvements rather than crying for everyone else to be "nerfed". If everything is constantly nerfed because someone is jealous of it, eventually we're all weak and the game stops growing or being any fun as it becomes an endless grind of hit button 1 x number of times, hope you don't die, and 3 hours later you get some xp and a gold piece, because any other loot would be overpowered and not everyone else has it.

[Rodasch]

A rogue COULD UMD a scroll. Can he fight with a scroll in his hand?
A Sorc COULD UMD a scroll. Can he fight with a scroll in his hand?

Do you see the difference now?

No difference, the sorcerer has to stop casting damage spells to umd the scroll just like the rogue has to stop swinging to umd the scroll. Try again.

As for "casters are OP gods in PNP Bla bla bla bla"

DDO is an MMO implementation of a game along the lines of Diablo, WoW using the d20 system and nothing more.

You're so wrong I don't think you can possibly recover this one. You do know what the two "D"s at the beginning of DDO stand for don't you? You're also aware that every class, race, spell, skill, and weapon was designed almost entirely to mirror the PnP equivalent with few exceptions (like the implementation of Khopesh, or the use of AP's and PrE's instead of PrC's), and those few exceptions were made after heavy deliberation on their impact by the devs and designers, then implemented and tweaked over time...It's also those things they CHANGED from PnP which are the vast bulk of the "balance issues" we face today in the game, and which require the most continued tweaking and examination when they change content, backend systems, or rules mechanics.

This game is based on a real PnP game world and game system, it's not just a generic diablo knock off or WoW II...those games are completely different systems, with different systems, rules, classes, environments, balance issues, and design structures. The only thing they have in common is being fantasy based MMO's.

Do you think anyone would ever play a lvl 20 fighter in a PNP game?? Hell no.

Yes, and I have. I've also played level 20 wizards, sorcerers, clerics, paladins, rogues, assassins, rangers, bards, monks, and even a few lesser known prestige or supplemental classes, not only in 3.0/3.5 edition but in 2.0/2.5, and even in 1st edition.

Would lvl 20's even be bothering to run quests like they do in ddo slaying hords of monsters? HELL no they would have servants or hire armies/ mercenaries to do all that work. A lvl 20 in PNP would and should be a King. He would have an army of 1000 guys, he wouldnt be running around the harbor or the IQ slaying mephits or whatever garbage monsters.

Level 20 characters run different adventures than lower level characters, things like chasing down and destroying evil artifacts, stopping global catastrophes, averting impending wars with powerful foes (like other level 20 NPC's who are also commanding an army of thousands of guys and ordering them to come raze your castle to the ground and recover for him some of your nifty relics of power)...They do things appropriate to their level...they fight demon lords, demi-gods, devil princes, etc...they shape world events and global politics...

If a boss needed to be eliminated he would simply Wish it out of existence, or scrye and teleport in fully buffed, ending the fight with 5 seconds and then teleport out.

Or that boss might do the same to you! it works both ways...oh wait, there's ways to defend against those strategies (I know, my wizards use them because I've used those strategies on his enemies and he's paranoid it will come back on him)....and guess what...your enemies can use those defenses too...meaning you have to come up with ways to get around his defenses...

As for Wish...it's a dangerous spell when used free-form, and any DM worth their salt will make you afraid to use that spell for anything other than copying another existing spell you don't have in your spellbook unless the situation is dire. Also, teleport is range limited, and scry gets a save throw in 3.5, so they're not as powerful as you imply.

I dont know why "casters are OP in pnp so thats fine in ddo" is even a relevant argument.

That's because you seem to be under the misguided impression that DDO isn't Dungeons and Dragons Online, but rather that it's Diablo and Dragons Online.

[Aashrym]

A rogue COULD UMD a scroll. Can he fight with a scroll in his hand?
A Sorc COULD UMD a scroll. Can he fight with a scroll in his hand?

Do you see the difference now?

The answer is actually yes to both of those questions. Heal scroll in the main hand and an off hand weapon isn't very efficient, but the sorc also loses out on any benefit that might be on the main hand item too.

Both can be losing out by doing it but both can do it, probably the rogue loses more, and the sorc might have scroll mastery. Not enough to put it in the overpowered category.

As for "casters are OP gods in PNP Bla bla bla bla"

DDO is an MMO implementation of a game along the lines of Diablo, WoW using the d20 system and nothing more.

Do you think anyone would ever play a lvl 20 fighter in a PNP game?? Hell no.
Would lvl 20's even be bothering to run quests like they do in ddo slaying hords of monsters? HELL no they would have servants or hire armies/ mercenaries to do all that work. A lvl 20 in PNP would and should be a King. He would have an army of 1000 guys, he wouldnt be running around the harbor or the IQ slaying mephits or whatever garbage monsters.

If a boss needed to be eliminated he would simply Wish it out of existence, or scrye and teleport in fully buffed, ending the fight with 5 seconds and then teleport out.

I dont know why "casters are OP in pnp so thats fine in ddo" is even a relevant argument.

While I do think mages should be strong burst DPS because that's the game system we're based on. There will be top DPS classes no matter what and there's no reason to stray from it being mages. Simply tweak a little here, adjust a little there instead of calling out for nerfs or buffs.

Like I said, I can buy into dungeon alert changes to slow casters down as an area to help balance things out better. That's something worth looking into. Talking about how a 20th level PnP would be played isn't really relevant, and if that was your point then I agree with it.

[crazydamage]

Reread what I wrote. I agreed Dungeon alert should increase SR if it's going to be a mechanic in the game. I'm not a fan of DA at all, but if it's there it should be fairly administered.



When was the last time you saw a LFM asking for healers that was looking for arcanes specifically? We can't fill every roll in the game effectively any more than a UMDing rogue can. Should we nerf rogue dps too since they can cast buffs, nukes, heals, rezzes, and utility spells from scrolls?



Yes I'm disputing this. The only arcanes with the better self healing are warforged and pale masters. All other casters have the exact same self healing as any melee, which is potions or UMD (or Half elf dilly feats, which are also available to melees)

Your problem is you paint all arcanes with the broad brush of the best single cases and act as if anything any one iteration of class/race arcane can do that any arcane can do it...that's simply not the case.



My rogue who casts shadow walk and ddoor begs to differ with your opinion here. Ddoor is available on orien dragon marks, and scrolls buyable through AH. Shadow walk is available on scrolls vendor purchasable in portable hole (and perhaps another location or two). UMD allows use of both spells, and orien dragonmarks allow no-fail use of ddoor for any class of the right race.

Jump, invis, haste, etc are available to newer players as well as veteran players, not just through clickies but through potions, scrolls, and wands. UMD covers the scrolls and wands (or helf dilly) and potions don't even need UMD. There are also festival cookies which provide massive buffing and spell casting ability to even pure melees that can be bought from AH or simply stocked up on during festivult by anyone with the desire to do so.



I spend almost no time running anywhere on any toons, teleport and Greater Teleport are much less powerful now that guild ship navigators can teleport you to almost anywhere you want to go, or at least very close to it. Failing that there are infinitely available teleport and greater teleport scrolls (my melees carry stacks of them and UMD them).



Orange names will be immune to finger after Monday. Ddoor is not an issue as I outlined above. Haste is available for cove event many ways. Dance is available through clickies and even melee guards for non-casters, Firewall got nerfed, etc etc....

On top of all that, Firewall+disco "fire and forget" is one of the reasons they did the entire u9 spell revamp, to nerf that...so what gain to you hope to achieve by citing that in a discussion of how overpowered you feel casters are post u9?



Unimaginative melees maybe. There are more options than just dps til dead.



And yet my melees did just fine in that event using disruption weapons and autoattack or holy/pg weapons (maybe flaming burst for mummies).


Fact is, the first half of the quoted sentence violates forum policies as do many of your posts simply because they imply strongly the very same thing as you explicitly stated here.

I have no problem with seeking melee improvements to bring them in line with where they should be, power wise, in relation to content and other archetype classes, but if you want to be in all ways equal to casters, you're playing the wrong game.

Try crusading for your improvements rather than crying for everyone else to be "nerfed". If everything is constantly nerfed because someone is jealous of it, eventually we're all weak and the game stops growing or being any fun as it becomes an endless grind of hit button 1 x number of times, hope you don't die, and 3 hours later you get some xp and a gold piece, because any other loot would be overpowered and not everyone else has it.

If u farmed the event on a melee then you fail
.
Fail in the sense that you walked bothways uphill when u could have rode a bike downhill (for those that nitpick).

And why am I calling for "everyone else" to be nerfed. I'm nerfing myself.

I nerfed my wizard with 8 Epic ornamental daggers.

All I want is to have balance so that I dont always have to use my wizard every time I want something done the fastest most efficient way.

[crazydamage]

The answer is actually yes to both of those questions. Heal scroll in the main hand and an off hand weapon isn't very efficient, but the sorc also loses out on any benefit that might be on the main hand item too.

Both can be losing out by doing it but both can do it, probably the rogue loses more, and the sorc might have scroll mastery. Not enough to put it in the overpowered category.



While I do think mages should be strong burst DPS because that's the game system we're based on. There will be top DPS classes no matter what and there's no reason to stray from it being mages. Simply tweak a little here, adjust a little there instead of calling out for nerfs or buffs.

Like I said, I can buy into dungeon alert changes to slow casters down as an area to help balance things out better. That's something worth looking into. Talking about how a 20th level PnP would be played isn't really relevant, and if that was your point then I agree with it.

No, you cant even fight with a scroll. Since scrolls go in your mainhand and when equipped you scroll punch and get no further attack animations.

[fluffybunnywilson]

1 last time just to show you EXACTLY what i said



Then your response.



We are in total agreement that the 44-46 dc PM's that can wail 15 mobs with 1 spell is dumb. But nerfing all casters over that is a MAJOR mistake.

Maybe put death spells on a completly seperate save value (so as not to mess with other spells.) which would put a 44 Necro DC at a 1 in 3 chance would be the way to go. But Killing the spell line isnt the answer nor is keeping it the way it is.

Then how do you take away power from the 44 DC necromancer without making the 37 DC necromancer a complete waste of time?

I do believe that it is reasonable to expect casters to have to work at improving their DC's and Spell Penetration before they can be king of the hill, but you shouldn't need multiple Epic items in order to get your DC's high enough to actually contribute *something*.

A Wizard that started with a 16 Int and didn't even get a +2 Tome yet shouldn't expect to smite all foes, but giving enemies a 37 save against death spells (which is what your 1 in 3 chance against 44 DC would work out to) is just plain rediculous. Having enemies save on a 2+ when your spell DC's are 38 means that even decently geared Pale Masters might as well not bother loading instant death spells.

The 20 Wizards on each server that have a 44 DC on their instant kill spells are not going to break the game. The people who have those characters are going to breeze through epic content no matter what character they're on.

[KillEveryone]

No, you cant even fight with a scroll. Since scrolls go in your mainhand and when equipped you scroll punch and get no further attack animations.

Like you said "you scroll punch" when you fight with a scroll in your hand.

YOU can fight but it isn't efficient.

I'm beginning to think that you don't really read the arguments.

I also don't think you are the reason for the "nerf" to ornamental daggers. Anyone with any kind of thought would know how over powered it is to have several in their inventory that if they really believed that they wouldn't be made exclusive, well, I have a bridge to sell them.

[Aashrym]

No, you cant even fight with a scroll. Since scrolls go in your mainhand and when equipped you scroll punch and get no further attack animations.

Hmmm.... I can fight with a scroll in my main hand, just tried it. I was getting sneak attacks in and proccing charged gauntlets easily enough. I can see what looks like an attack animation in the off hand but I'm not getting any actual attack off of it.

So, I can fight while holding a scroll, I just suck at it. And learned something new about suboptimal combat.

[crazydamage]

Hmmm.... I can fight with a scroll in my main hand, just tried it. I was getting sneak attacks in and proccing charged gauntlets easily enough. I can see what looks like an attack animation in the off hand but I'm not getting any actual attack off of it.

So, I can fight while holding a scroll, I just suck at it. And learned something new about suboptimal combat.

UGH, the dmg you do by punching once slowly with a scroll is probably like 10% of your normal dps.

[crazydamage]

Then how do you take away power from the 44 DC necromancer without making the 37 DC necromancer a complete waste of time?

I do believe that it is reasonable to expect casters to have to work at improving their DC's and Spell Penetration before they can be king of the hill, but you shouldn't need multiple Epic items in order to get your DC's high enough to actually contribute *something*.

A Wizard that started with a 16 Int and didn't even get a +2 Tome yet shouldn't expect to smite all foes, but giving enemies a 37 save against death spells (which is what your 1 in 3 chance against 44 DC would work out to) is just plain rediculous. Having enemies save on a 2+ when your spell DC's are 38 means that even decently geared Pale Masters might as well not bother loading instant death spells.

The 20 Wizards on each server that have a 44 DC on their instant kill spells are not going to break the game. The people who have those characters are going to breeze through epic content no matter what character they're on.

You can put back the death wards in epics like we had before.
Enabling vorpals to work so that melees get balance.
Giving melees a new feat (Dev crit)

Just 3 of the ways I can think of off the top of my head.

[Tortavil]

Then how do you take away power from the 44 DC necromancer without making the 37 DC necromancer a complete waste of time?

I do believe that it is reasonable to expect casters to have to work at improving their DC's and Spell Penetration before they can be king of the hill, but you shouldn't need multiple Epic items in order to get your DC's high enough to actually contribute *something*.

A Wizard that started with a 16 Int and didn't even get a +2 Tome yet shouldn't expect to smite all foes, but giving enemies a 37 save against death spells (which is what your 1 in 3 chance against 44 DC would work out to) is just plain rediculous. Having enemies save on a 2+ when your spell DC's are 38 means that even decently geared Pale Masters might as well not bother loading instant death spells.

The 20 Wizards on each server that have a 44 DC on their instant kill spells are not going to break the game. The people who have those characters are going to breeze through epic content no matter what character they're on.

If you have a 37 DC for Necro spells as a pale master your not trying and not ready to do epics.

Int 18(at start) +2(capstone) +2(tome) +5(level ups) +3 (enhancements) +6(items) gives you 36int Add in Lich form (your a pale master) +2 gives you a 38.

10(base DC)
9 (Spell level with hieghten)
14 (Intel)
+1 (lich form DC increase)
+1 (spell focus Necro)
+1 (Greater Spell Focus Necro)
+1 (Necro Item)
=37 DC

So basically with no ship buffs, no exceptional int bonus's, no litnany, no +3/+4 tomes, no greater necro item, no past lives, no yugo pots all level 20 pm's should be able to hit 37.

So no i dont think they have worked to be able to instakill in epics.

hit 40...and then it should work moderatly well. Sorry we disagree but we do.

[Scraap]

Then how do you take away power from the 44 DC necromancer without making the 37 DC necromancer a complete waste of time?

Time seems to be the biggest issue. Specifically, casting time. They keep fiddling with cooldowns, and spell-point costs, but ignoring the third balancing factor from the core rule-sets: How long it takes to actually cast the spell.

If (old)firewall, finger, and wail have one thing in common that's obviously nasty, it's not the slaughter that they cause, it's the capacity to do so in an instant.

Compare Circle of Death with Wail, for instance: the former, while not properly animated, has some prep-time before the effect goes off, which means for full effect on a group of mobs, you need the things locked down into one position. With the latter, it's quite simple to dart into a whole mess of the things, push the big red button, and duck back out to check for survivors.

If both had the prep-time of say, a cloud spell, that smaller hit-dice might mean something. (With 'get moar HPs','quicken mandatory', or 'bring along your buddy to get agro on them first', all being possible results to one degree or another.)

/random observation

[Emili]

Then how do you take away power from the 44 DC necromancer without making the 37 DC necromancer a complete waste of time?

I do believe that it is reasonable to expect casters to have to work at improving their DC's and Spell Penetration before they can be king of the hill, but you shouldn't need multiple Epic items in order to get your DC's high enough to actually contribute *something*.

A Wizard that started with a 16 Int and didn't even get a +2 Tome yet shouldn't expect to smite all foes, but giving enemies a 37 save against death spells (which is what your 1 in 3 chance against 44 DC would work out to) is just plain rediculous. Having enemies save on a 2+ when your spell DC's are 38 means that even decently geared Pale Masters might as well not bother loading instant death spells.

The 20 Wizards on each server that have a 44 DC on their instant kill spells are not going to break the game. The people who have those characters are going to breeze through epic content no matter what character they're on.

Tempest Spine... remember when the black guard had AC's rivaling ours? I do so remember tanking them with a maladoit mace while the rogues and arcane slowly picked them off me... personally I found it to be a boring game then and got into arguements with Riot over such. Just bloody felt like every other MMO. I find such tactics boring and quite stupid.

DnD is random and even these people touting how powerful casters are in that game ... they forget the mob in the other is played by a thinking live person - the DM ... for as powerful a caster is there the DM should play the foe up just as on par to that caster. That is the way DnD is intended to be played... I played epic levels DnD on both a ranger and druid. Arcane really were not the be all end all these DnD players round here tout. Initiative and random rolls costs of components... whatever your int and saves were - the big bady had the same or much the time better.

What I find funny is the bulk all mob lost meaningful AC and the relevance of BaB and To-Hit became so minimal. Are only some bosses in epics have decent AC these days ... Big Top, All the same I can hit her frequently from my rogue... In same light remember DC to a caster is the same as to-hit on a melee. Debuffs such as enervating and such the same purpose as sunder...

eChronos ... the best tanking jobs I've ever seen there were not by some Barb or slab of meat. But by well geared PM's and WF casters dressed in absorbtion gear self healing some and recasting fire/cold shields.

Pont being as I told Riot all those years ago ... the best defense has always been having the best offense. You go into a quest and obliverate the mob within seconds and is no need for defense ... just how it is when the DM is so nice to not poise challenges.

When we hop into a quest together I as the leader am going to pick what difficulty we should go in on ... and I judge the power of the team to do so... I size it up.

You can fail your party by not bringing the best teammate (class you could have). Instead of bringing your tweaked out geared melee you could have been using your time better to tweak out and gear your caster ... then you serve more purpose to your group and contribute more on a whole. Harsh but no difference then comparing a GS lit ii to a simple +5 khopesh ... figure it out?

[fluffybunnywilson]

If you have a 37 DC for Necro spells as a pale master your not trying and not ready to do epics.

Int 18(at start) +2(capstone) +2(tome) +5(level ups) +3 (enhancements) +6(items) gives you 36int Add in Lich form (your a pale master) +2 gives you a 38.

10(base DC)
9 (Spell level with hieghten)
14 (Intel)
+1 (lich form DC increase)
+1 (spell focus Necro)
+1 (Greater Spell Focus Necro)
+1 (Necro Item)
=37 DC

So basically with no ship buffs, no exceptional int bonus's, no litnany, no +3/+4 tomes, no greater necro item, no past lives, no yugo pots all level 20 pm's should be able to hit 37.

So no i dont think they have worked to be able to instakill in epics.

hit 40...and then it should work moderatly well. Sorry we disagree but we do.

37 DC is the breakpoint between "embarassed by your DC" and "haven't accumulated special gear that you only get at cap".

If you have less than 37 DC, then you should be embarassed by your DC at cap.

You can't get more than 37 without jumping through some hoops, though. A character who is recently level 20 without a guild and without a ToD ring shouldn't be rocking the house, but they also shoudn't be completely useless at the school that they spent 2 feats and turned themselves into a lich to get.

I'm absolutely okay with seeing a significant number of failures on instant kill spells with 37 DC. I just think that a Pale Master who has done everything right and just hasn't finished grinding raids yet should be seeing every single enemy save on a 2+ (which is exactly what you're suggesting).

[Monkeytoe]

1) True or False: Obstinacy is the main reason people play non-caster characters in DDO.

That is all.