Madfloyd's TR idea

[Seikojin]

Have you capped a 2nd TR in this way? Cause i tried this and got tired after the harbor..there's too much xp/min disparity in quests to apply your method: shadowcrypt and babysit coyle should be the same lvl, one is more than 20k xp for 15 min, the other is 1,5k xp for 15 min: why in the hell someone should run that hell that is threnal 3 instead of shadowcrypt?

Nope. I don't have all the content and with my play schedule, my character isn't 'efficient' to be taken along with most epics to get my heart quickly, and my gear is not upgraded or the best in order to compensate for what my build lacks. So I am slowly gathering the comps to tr twice so I can 'rush' through my first and second lives following a straight nnnhe pattern with the content I do have. As planned, I will have to bank levels until about level 8 or 9 on my first life, then on my second, I should be able to bank until level 4 before my gains will be small enough that I don't outpace the quests.

If they bring the xp of all quests in line with the best ones then the cap could stay where it is and there could be some variety..till then TR2+ will only be a boring repetition of easy quests, if you want to be back to the cap in a decent time.

Or they can just apply this:

This is the best idea ever. You can go the long and easy way, like now, try the fast and hard way, or a mix of the two. It should make all happy

The first thing TR's will do is run everything on elite. One run gets them 1.2 million exp. If they ran hard, then elite, they would get to the 1.9 million.

Again, I see nothing wrong with the system for TRing. I think with more content to run, easy or hard, it will stop the complaints from TR's about nothing to do.

[Coldest]

You said it would be too easy if they do like proposed in this thread, so i've just pointed out that now is already too easy, just boring

I don't think running vale quests, reaver's refuge quests and amrath quests at lvl on elite is easier than it is now, it might be a challenge at least. Or do you find challenging running the same quests under your level millions of times?

Actually, now that I think about it. Completionist is very hard. It is also challenging as h*((, just in a different way. It definitely challenges your committment as well as your patience. It also challenges your focus.

So I have to disagree with you as well as contradict my earlier statements. It is not already too easy, it is the hardest thing I've done in this game and I'm not even done yet. 38.7 million xp down, but not done yet. Should completionist be made 90% easier? I don't think so.

Hats off to Star and Godmodee.

[Aaxeyu]

Actually, now that I think about it. Completionist is very hard. It is also challenging as h*((, just in a different way. It definitely challenges your committment as well as your patience. It also challenges your focus.

So I have to disagree with you as well as contradict my earlier statements. It is not already too easy, it is the hardest thing I've done in this game and I'm not even done yet. 38.7 million xp down, but not done yet. Should completionist be made 90% easier? I don't think so.

Hats off to Star and Godmodee.

When the challenge is to overcome the boredom, something is very wrong.

[Coldest]

When the challenge is to overcome the boredom, something is very wrong.

The challenge has been set and the reward has been established. How one feels about the work needed to accomplish the reward is their own perspective. I just don't think the reward should be had at a much lessened sacrifice.

What is so very wrong with that?

[Valiance]

The challenge has been set and the reward has been established. How one feels about the work needed to accomplish the reward is their own perspective. I just don't think the reward should be had at a much lessened sacrifice.

What is so very wrong with that?

Well then they should institute two different "paths" for TRs. One can be the current method and the other can be a method with greater quest difficulty but with lower XP requirements. I can barely stand the system as it is now.

V

[fluffybunnywilson]

The challenge has been set and the reward has been established. How one feels about the work needed to accomplish the reward is their own perspective. I just don't think the reward should be had at a much lessened sacrifice.

What is so very wrong with that?

What's wrong with that is that we shouldn't be sacrificing fun for reward.

We can sacrifice time and we can sacrifice effort, but when boredom becomes the path to reward, something has gone seriously wrong with a game.

[Aaxeyu]

The challenge has been set and the reward has been established. How one feels about the work needed to accomplish the reward is their own perspective. I just don't think the reward should be had at a much lessened sacrifice.

What is so very wrong with that?

Yes, the challenge has been set, but the challenge is absurd!
It's a game, boring is the last thing it should be!

"If you can stand being bored long enough you will get a reward!"
That's just a very bad way to design a game mechanic.

[QuantumFX]

The challenge has been set and the reward has been established. How one feels about the work needed to accomplish the reward is their own perspective. I just don't think the reward should be had at a much lessened sacrifice.

You seem to misunderstand the fact that “sacrifice” is a subjective term as well. The people who are supporting this change are wanting to trade the “sacrifice” of boredom for the “sacrifice” of difficulty.

[Kushiel]

The challenge has been set and the reward has been established. How one feels about the work needed to accomplish the reward is their own perspective. I just don't think the reward should be had at a much lessened sacrifice.

What is so very wrong with that?

Not a thing "wrong" with that. Effort and perspective are very much so *personal* experiences.

I am kind of starting to believe that those who are "bored" during the process of moving through the world from level 1-to-20 may be equally as "bored" when they finally settle on a "End-Game" capped class and are doing whatever it is one does at that point.

The adventures/game/world are not inherently "boring" - but it may very well be that some people are "bored" by frequency of repetition of the content working up through their accumulation of power... or they may just be "bored" by the manner in which they are running it. Maybe it is compounded greatly by the concept/desire/goal of wanting to sustain some XP/min formula for fast-tracking back to the pinnacle of their might.

I'm on my 4th life and wandering through quests yet again. I'm not "bored" - and even though I've got the innate benefits of my previous 3 lives as a Bard I've come to realize that every trip up through classes (even with the aggregate of subsequent passive past life boons) is going to be a different creature to some degree or other. It's going to be a long trip too - because I want to do the 3 lives of each class for the strongest cumulative affect - and peculiar since I intend on being Ranged attack based for each class and there are some classes I have anxiety over making those attempts with.

But, somehow, I don't think I'm going to be "bored" as I *play* through what those lives bring me.

And, touching back on the old XP penalty proposals in this thread, I'm still adamantly against any new implementations of % penalties for multiple TR's running content on *any* difficulty. I'm thinking that some of my lives are going to consider it a major blessing to be able to run content (the way I want to do it) a bit over level, on casual, and still see a pleasing amount of XP roll in that advances me along my path. I also have the benefit of when I start putting effort into moving through the mid-levels, I still have areas/quests/zones I can enter and experience progess without doing some varient of NNNN/H/E.

I guess it would not be what some here have wanted for themselves in the way of a "challenge" - pushing themselves to limits at content above their implied capabilities for potentially greater rewards, but even as the world exists now there are a multitude of factors players can incorporate into their builds/gear/styles that could change minor-to-significant portions of their journey.

[Unreliable]

I dont think this is a terrible idea, just give players the choice.

Some people like the grind more then the challenge, and let them keep playing the way they want too.

This could be done by halving the xp requirements and just making normal give a 50% penalty.

[Aaxeyu]

I dont think this is a terrible idea, just give players the choice.

Some people like the grind more then the challenge, and let them keep playing the way they want too.

This could be done by halving the xp requirements and just making normal give a 50% penalty.

Exactly. Some people say that they don't want any xp-penalties on normal/hard, but at the same time they don't want the xp required to cap to be reduced. They don't realise that with XP penalties AND lower xp required to cap they can keep playing like nothing has changed.
And those who find running a quest on normal for the 200th time with an overleveled and overgeared character boring can do quests on elite and at the same time get less incentive to overlevel and farm quests.

[Coldest]

Exactly. Some people say that they don't want any xp-penalties on normal/hard, but at the same time they don't want the xp required to cap to be reduced. They don't realise that with XP penalties AND lower xp required to cap they can keep playing like nothing has changed.
And those who find running a quest on normal for the 200th time with an overleveled and overgeared character boring can do quests on elite and at the same time get less incentive to overlevel and farm quests.

and I say again, if you want to make Completionist 90% less effort to achieve then why not ask to have a buy out option from the store? Is that just too much instant gratification?

[Coldest]

I'm on my 4th life and wandering through quests yet again. I'm not "bored" - and even though I've got the innate benefits of my previous 3 lives as a Bard I've come to realize that every trip up through classes (even with the aggregate of subsequent passive past life boons) is going to be a different creature to some degree or other. It's going to be a long trip too - because I want to do the 3 lives of each class for the strongest cumulative affect - and peculiar since I intend on being Ranged attack based for each class and there are some classes I have anxiety over making those attempts with.

But, somehow, I don't think I'm going to be "bored" as I *play* through what those lives bring me.
.

Awesome. I have run some bizarre builds through this adventure, that I otherwise would never have leveled if I didn't know I was going to TR at the end of em. I haven't played a Dex based finesse character since level cap was 14, until one of my previous TRs.

[khaldan]

and I say again, if you want to make Completionist 90% less effort to achieve then why not ask to have a buy out option from the store? Is that just too much instant gratification?

Why do you say it's 90% easier? It's less grindy, sure, but it does increase some of the challenge of a TR, in that you don't just farm quests 1 level below your level with full twink gear.

[Coldest]

Why do you say it's 90% easier?

Because It is 45% less xp. That extra 45% accumulation is the harder xp to garner by far. You can run 20 quests to ransack on elite to get your 1.9. It gets to be much slimmer pickins once you deviate away from the Shadow crypts, Von3s, Wiz Kings, Monastary, etc.

[Aaxeyu]

and I say again, if you want to make Completionist 90% less effort to achieve then why not ask to have a buy out option from the store? Is that just too much instant gratification?

Because I don't want it to be sold in the store.

It wouldn't require 90% less effort, only alot less mind-numbing grind. Complementing effortless grind (the only effort is to stay awake and not hit alt -f4) with a more challenging alternative that doesn't test your ability to keep doing the same thing even if you are almost bored to death.

And the bonuses from TRing are not monumental, so why should the grind be?

[pHo3nix]

Because It is 45% less xp. That extra 45% accumulation is the harder xp to garner by far. You can run 20 quests to ransack on elite to get your 1.9. It gets to be much slimmer pickins once you deviate away from the Shadow crypts, Von3s, Wiz Kings, Monastary, etc.

Earning those many xp in the current state of the game is not hard, it's boring. Running monastery elite at 16-17, SoS elite at 16-17, vale quests elite at 15-16, those might be challenges even with exceptional gears.

The suggestion in this thread would leave your "hard" path an option, but it would open the option for a challenge to the playing skills of the players, not only their patience win-win

[Coldest]

It wouldn't require 90% less effort, only alot less mind-numbing grind.

I disagree. Heres why:

1.9M xp needed all quests to be run on elite -

Level 1-5, 90,000xp (Durks, Info, Kobald farm, 2 WW run throughs)
Level 6, 140,000xp (STK 5 times)
Level 7, 200,000 xp (TR 3 times with Doom run farm)
Level 8, 270,000 xp (D2 farm)
Level 9, 350,000 xp (Bloody crypt farm)
Level 10, 440,000 xp (5 Shadow Knights)
Level 11, 550,000 xp (Tear Farm, 2 Shadow Knights)
Level 12, 660,000 xp (Von 3 Farm)
Level 13, 780,00 xp (Shadow Crypt Farm)
Level 14, 910,000 xp (Wiz King Farm)
Level 15, 1,050,000 xp (GH 1 time through)
Level 16, 1,200,000 xp (Orchard Farm)
Level 17, 1,360,000 xp (Litany Farm)
Level 18, 1,530,000 xp (Vale Farm)
Level 19, 1,710,000 xp (Enter the Kobald Farm, Shroud)
Level 20, 1.900,000 xp (Monastary Farm, Hound, VoD)

The above map, hastiliy put together, in my opinion 90% less effort than what it currently takes to accrue 4.3 million xp. That extra 45% XP is much harder to garner.

Complementing effortless grind (the only effort is to stay awake and not hit alt -f4) with a more challenging alternative that doesn't test your ability to keep doing the same thing even if you are almost bored to death.

I disagree. My perspective is that what Godmodee, Star, Urin and others have accomplished is far from effortless.

And the bonuses from TRing are not monumental, so why should the grind be?

+2 to all stats and +2 to all skills is a pretty powerful reward. If it is made that much easier to attain, oh well. It's not like I haven't seen this game dumbed down to the masses before.

So that I can gauge the experience behind your opinions, how many 4.3M lives have you completed?

[Seikojin]

Not a thing "wrong" with that. Effort and perspective are very much so *personal* experiences.

I am kind of starting to believe that those who are "bored" during the process of moving through the world from level 1-to-20 may be equally as "bored" when they finally settle on a "End-Game" capped class and are doing whatever it is one does at that point.

The adventures/game/world are not inherently "boring" - but it may very well be that some people are "bored" by frequency of repetition of the content working up through their accumulation of power... or they may just be "bored" by the manner in which they are running it. Maybe it is compounded greatly by the concept/desire/goal of wanting to sustain some XP/min formula for fast-tracking back to the pinnacle of their might.

I'm on my 4th life and wandering through quests yet again. I'm not "bored" - and even though I've got the innate benefits of my previous 3 lives as a Bard I've come to realize that every trip up through classes (even with the aggregate of subsequent passive past life boons) is going to be a different creature to some degree or other. It's going to be a long trip too - because I want to do the 3 lives of each class for the strongest cumulative affect - and peculiar since I intend on being Ranged attack based for each class and there are some classes I have anxiety over making those attempts with.

But, somehow, I don't think I'm going to be "bored" as I *play* through what those lives bring me.

And, touching back on the old XP penalty proposals in this thread, I'm still adamantly against any new implementations of % penalties for multiple TR's running content on *any* difficulty. I'm thinking that some of my lives are going to consider it a major blessing to be able to run content (the way I want to do it) a bit over level, on casual, and still see a pleasing amount of XP roll in that advances me along my path. I also have the benefit of when I start putting effort into moving through the mid-levels, I still have areas/quests/zones I can enter and experience progess without doing some varient of NNNN/H/E.

I guess it would not be what some here have wanted for themselves in the way of a "challenge" - pushing themselves to limits at content above their implied capabilities for potentially greater rewards, but even as the world exists now there are a multitude of factors players can incorporate into their builds/gear/styles that could change minor-to-significant portions of their journey.

Exactly how I feel. When I go to tr my main, all his builds will focus on being able to melee with dual scims. All the planned builds seem to be good builds and it will be fun playing them to 20. Fortunately I purchased most of the content in the game, so I know I will not be bored working my way to 20.

As far as TRing: I think altering the foundation it was made upon will just make it a worse experience. Either too easy, or too long. The addition of content through all levels will fix both of those and allow variety for the players. If people quit thinking in an easiest (xp/min) path mentality, then they wouldn't be soo bored on their way to 20.

[pHo3nix]

I disagree. My perspective is that what Godmodee, Star, Urin and others have accomplished is far from effortless.

Again, grinding easy quests with uber gears above lvl millions of times is not challenging..I'm sure those players would prefer a challenging path to the grinding one. And, again, doing so that you can go both the easy but grinding way and the hard but faster one should be a win-win