Madfloyd's TR idea

[Aeolwind]

only if non-vip have to do normal+hard first. non-vip shouldnt be able to open elite without unlocking it or payiing for it first.



i think non-vip just want this to be able to open on harder and grind for tp faster/easier.

If they unlocked the hard or elite for that specific character that is a tr it would be fine. Vip gets it across the board and can do elite runs with a 28pt char to grind out tp quickly, where as the person tring would only gain the tp on that one character per life unless they ran it with other characters on n/h first. Im not seeing the issue. They can also join parties for elite runs already without expending anything. The difference is they have to have a vip opener which isnt that hard to find.

Im ok as long as it is a per tr basis.

[Seikojin]

If you do every quest on elite, once, you will get 1,207,342. Not including any optionals, or any other bonuses besides first time bonus. Obviously not enough to cap any toon.

If we were to aggregate just off numbers, you have the following:

3432      - lvl 01 exp total
12053    - lvl 02 exp total
17320    - lvl 03 exp total
19451    - lvl 04 exp total
32034    - lvl 05 exp total
26380    - lvl 06 exp total
40400    - lvl 07 exp total
52113    - lvl 08 exp total
50167    - lvl 09 exp total
51242    - lvl 10 exp total
72019    - lvl 11 exp total
54028    - lvl 12 exp total
27362    - lvl 13 exp total
56897    - lvl 14 exp total
16716    - lvl 15 exp total
39031    - lvl 16 exp total
50727    - lvl 17 exp total
40310    - lvl 18 exp total
48537    - lvl 19 exp total
16498    - lvl 20 exp total

You can see there are severe differences between levels. These are base values of all the quests of each level on the normal difficulty.
In a perfect world, you would want this to carry you to the end of your level gaining in at least your first life.

From this chart alone, I would propose that each level of quest should be able to carry you from that level to the next in any given life (1st, 2nd, 3rd+) by doing all the difficulties of said quests.

[Cyr]

If you do every quest on elite, once, you will get 1,207,342. Not including any optionals, or any other bonuses besides first time bonus. Obviously not enough to cap any toon.

Yet with bonuses and optionals you will get over 1.9 million xp.

If the devs merely assigned epic quests appropriate xp and allowed anyone to enter them the high levels would be no issue for xp under the proposed 1.9 million cap with severe penalties for non-elite content (on TR2+) floated earlier in this thread.

[Yaga_Nub]

Not going to read through all of this thread so I apologize if this has been said before but...

1) I believe the front end should take more xp than the back end because of the number of quests available and that it should be adjusted as more upper end content is put out.

2) I think there should be XP bonuses for doing content above your level as long as everyone in the group is below the level of the quest.

3) TR2s should be able to wear epic gear at 19 (or 18?) and should be allowed into epic quests. Maybe TR1s as well but for now I'm not sold on anything special for TR1s.

[Aeolwind]

If you do every quest on elite, once, you will get 1,207,342. Not including any optionals, or any other bonuses besides first time bonus. Obviously not enough to cap any toon.

If we were to aggregate just off numbers, you have the following:

3432      - lvl 01 exp total
12053    - lvl 02 exp total
17320    - lvl 03 exp total
19451    - lvl 04 exp total
32034    - lvl 05 exp total
26380    - lvl 06 exp total
40400    - lvl 07 exp total
52113    - lvl 08 exp total
50167    - lvl 09 exp total
51242    - lvl 10 exp total
72019    - lvl 11 exp total
54028    - lvl 12 exp total
27362    - lvl 13 exp total
56897    - lvl 14 exp total
16716    - lvl 15 exp total
39031    - lvl 16 exp total
50727    - lvl 17 exp total
40310    - lvl 18 exp total
48537    - lvl 19 exp total
16498    - lvl 20 exp total

You can see there are severe differences between levels. These are base values of all the quests of each level on the normal difficulty.
In a perfect world, you would want this to carry you to the end of your level gaining in at least your first life.

From this chart alone, I would propose that each level of quest should be able to carry you from that level to the next in any given life (1st, 2nd, 3rd+) by doing all the difficulties of said quests.

Lol at 15. Is that including the Harbinger quests?

[Seikojin]

Lol at 15. Is that including the Harbinger quests?

The values I pulled were before the harbinger quests being added. I took them from ddowiki since they are easier to nab from there and paste into a spreadsheet. That being said, it is out of date even on their end (they didn't have ToD in their main list for exp but had it in their quest list, which has it for the details of the quest).

So the level 15 range is higher. And this makes a very clear note about the work turbine is doing.

There are serious shortfalls in exp across the board after level 10. But even with that, you can cap any life with first runs (c/n/h/e) of all the available content.

The big gripe from multi tr's is not a problem from a content perspective, it is tr's trying to do less than the number of quests available to get to 20.

From that perspective, I can understand a bit. DnD is about your own way to 20. Ddo is pretty much the same as well. There has been tons of talk from devs about providing content for all the different player archtypes.

I think in turbines perfect world, each archtype should be able to get to 20 in any life without deviating from that persons preferred playstyle much. So someone who likes using diplomacy should have a way to 20 with that experience in the front. Same with hacknslashers. Same with strat casters and pew pew casters. Ranged combat only too. There are a lot of archtypes to please.

The problem with that is when one archtype crosses over to anothers and gains a significant advantage. Like in Stealthy repo. A quest great for crowd controllers, bluffers, sneakers, etc. But you can just run through it and ignore everything and do it faster. So even though the play experience is designed one way, another way can execute the end objective faster.

Many quests really try to puth themes to which archtype should be in the foreground and still have the other archtypes present. I love von2's fire giant. You can either fight him, or talk him down. There are timing puzzles, mazes, traps... It definitely allows many different archtypes to shine.

Unfortunately, I think if turbine did make every quest allow each archtype to shine in that quest, more players would whine about the quest difficulty.

[Aeolwind]

The values I pulled were before the harbinger quests being added. I took them from ddowiki since they are easier to nab from there and paste into a spreadsheet. That being said, it is out of date even on their end (they didn't have ToD in their main list for exp but had it in their quest list, which has it for the details of the quest).

So the level 15 range is higher. And this makes a very clear note about the work turbine is doing.

There are serious shortfalls in exp across the board after level 10. But even with that, you can cap any life with first runs (c/n/h/e) of all the available content.

The big gripe from multi tr's is not a problem from a content perspective, it is tr's trying to do less than the number of quests available to get to 20.

From that perspective, I can understand a bit. DnD is about your own way to 20. Ddo is pretty much the same as well. There has been tons of talk from devs about providing content for all the different player archtypes.

I think in turbines perfect world, each archtype should be able to get to 20 in any life without deviating from that persons preferred playstyle much. So someone who likes using diplomacy should have a way to 20 with that experience in the front. Same with hacknslashers. Same with strat casters and pew pew casters. Ranged combat only too. There are a lot of archtypes to please.

The problem with that is when one archtype crosses over to anothers and gains a significant advantage. Like in Stealthy repo. A quest great for crowd controllers, bluffers, sneakers, etc. But you can just run through it and ignore everything and do it faster. So even though the play experience is designed one way, another way can execute the end objective faster.

Many quests really try to puth themes to which archtype should be in the foreground and still have the other archtypes present. I love von2's fire giant. You can either fight him, or talk him down. There are timing puzzles, mazes, traps... It definitely allows many different archtypes to shine.

Unfortunately, I think if turbine did make every quest allow each archtype to shine in that quest, more players would whine about the quest difficulty.

The only point I disagree with, is that Turbine as a whole wants to accomodate varied playstyles. Devs would love too, money men could care less. The rest is +1.

[Seikojin]

The only point I disagree with, is that Turbine as a whole wants to accomodate varied playstyles. Devs would love too, money men could care less. The rest is +1.

Oh yeah, true all the way around. LOL When I refer to turbine, I mean the customer facing employees. Not the people who hide because they would be burned at the stake for sacrificing our enjoyment for their dollars. LOL

[fluffybunnywilson]

Oh yeah, true all the way around. LOL When I refer to turbine, I mean the customer facing employees. Not the people who hide because they would be burned at the stake for sacrificing our enjoyment for their dollars. LOL

Most of us have learned to sprint past the melee and archer mobs to take out the spellcasters in quests. Maybe we'll learn to do the same thing on the forums someday.

[Cyr]

Most of us have learned to sprint past the melee and archer mobs to take out the spellcasters in quests. Maybe we'll learn to do the same thing on the forums someday.

Many already have, it's just that applying any characterization that is negative to a Turbine employee often results in the forum equivelent of Dungeon Alert.

[SableShadow]

The problem with that is when one archtype crosses over to anothers and gains a significant advantage. Like in Stealthy repo. A quest great for crowd controllers, bluffers, sneakers, etc. But you can just run through it and ignore everything and do it faster. So even though the play experience is designed one way, another way can execute the end objective faster.

"This is why we can't have nice things." - FF

[Aeolwind]

"This is why we can't have nice things." - FF

This is why you add slow/snare traps with no save....

[Coldest]

I predict this change will take place shortly after I finish off my main. Thus, I will be able to look at the extra 28.4 million XP I garnered for naught. LOL.

Suggestion: If you are going to make TRing that easy, just put a buy out option in the DDO store and be done with it.

There is nothing at all challenging about making it elite only, it just alleviates 45% xp and about 90% of the grind. TRing will take 1-2 days because you will only need to run the sweet spots:

Kobald New Ring Leader
TR
D2
Bloody Crypt
etc...

[pHo3nix]

Suggestion: If you are going to make TRing that easy, just put a buy out option in the DDO store and be done with it.

Yes, cause run the same quests 8N/H/E when you are 1 lvl above them with all the gears from your PL is so "hard". Time consuming doesn't mean hard, it just means boring. TR is already more easy than levelling your 1st toon to 20: the only skill you must have to lvl up a 2nd TR is knowing what quests do at what lvl and bank the xp; so nothing to do with playing skills, just management ones.

[Lleren]

Heh, folks still not getting that grind is not a difficulty level, it is simply time consuming.

Might as well be back in guk farming a fbss...

[THOTHdha]

Most "average" or "casual" gamers cannot consistently handle elite quests above level 6. Every life I throw up and lfm for tear runs hoping to get somebody that can handle one of the optionals (or at least get wis/int/str etc.) and as soon as I start the hard run it sounds like jingle bells. Elite? Most casual gamers catch a pocket ride to the end. The added "challenge" is going to eliminate the crowd it is supposed to capture. Beyond GH, casual gamers will not be able to handle most of the content unless they bring along powergamers.

What part of double+ TRing is casual? Before someone finishes their first TR they should have a pretty good idea of what they are doing, and how to build a character that will be effective in Elite dungeons. And if they don't? Well... I have never understood the idea that seems to be so prevalent here that everything should be so easy that absolutely anyone with any 'flavorful' build can just walk through it without any problems.

only if non-vip have to do normal+hard first. non-vip shouldnt be able to open elite without unlocking it or payiing for it first.
i think non-vip just want this to be able to open on harder and grind for tp faster/easier.

o.O Because double TRs are clearly the efficient way to grind 100 favor for Turbine Points.... *facepalm*

[Coldest]

Yes, cause run the same quests 8N/H/E when you are 1 lvl above them with all the gears from your PL is so "hard". Time consuming doesn't mean hard, it just means boring. TR is already more easy than levelling your 1st toon to 20: the only skill you must have to lvl up a 2nd TR is knowing what quests do at what lvl and bank the xp; so nothing to do with playing skills, just management ones.

? Your point? Where do you read in my statement that I think anything is hard? I am failing to see what you are trying to argue with me.

Again, why not just put a buy out function in the store? The suggestion for the xp to go back to 1.9 with the player only being able to run elite gets you 90% there.

Does this not suit you? Or would you rather be able to say you "worked" for your "completionist"?

[pHo3nix]

? Your point? Where do you read in my statement that I think anything is hard? I am failing to see what you are trying to argue with me.

Again, why not just put a buy out function in the store? The suggestion for the xp to go back to 1.9 with the player only being able to run elite gets you 90% there.

Does this not suit you? Or would you rather be able to say you "worked" for your "completionist"?

You said it would be too easy if they do like proposed in this thread, so i've just pointed out that now is already too easy, just boring

I don't think running vale quests, reaver's refuge quests and amrath quests at lvl on elite is easier than it is now, it might be a challenge at least. Or do you find challenging running the same quests under your level millions of times?

[Seikojin]

Heh, folks still not getting that grind is not a difficulty level, it is simply time consuming.

Might as well be back in guk farming a fbss...

And that is a problem. People want variety as a need, so they come here saying the game is too easy or boring.

The biggest flaw from many posters is they are demanding change based soley on their wants in the game. Not many people look at generalization and the broad market for appeal. They also lose sight and don't try to include more than their playstyle in a suggestion.

That is why I said they needed User Generated Content. Given that the number of quests in ddo is small (compared to its competitors), even at quality, they need more quests to satisfy the vaccuous need of the players.

Turbine knows this though. They have known it for a very long time. That is why the game has gone to the system it is at now. That is why they try to add more quests whenever possible. Because they need to or people will stop playing.

Again, this is even a bigger reason for them to have UGC. It can offload a fair percentage of the work to make new content to fill the void for just new content. It would allow them to focus more on making richer content experiences. To focus on getting more gameplay features implimented, not only in depth, but in quality as well.

As far as exp and tring, many players are childishly impatient and do not plan for the inevitble lack of content in the later levels. So they outpace and outlevel the content and then find themselves stuck repeating quests more than they want to in order to cap. After crunching the numbers, anyone can cap with one run of each quest, on each difficulty for their first two lives (first run bonus only nets you 3.2 million for every quesnt (minus harbinger pack)). For their third life and beyond, just try a little harder in the quests. If you get first time, conquest, a minimum of 15% from breakables, and 10% for not dying and not reentering, you get a staggering 6.39million exp. So you have some wiggle room for failure, death, and quests that don't offer the full bonuses. There is no exp shortage in the game, just a shortage of patient tr players.

To anyone who would be offended by my statements on tr and player who tr; I am not picking on you. I am picking on the message that tr is a grind or boring. Flame as you will, I have nothing against the players, just the message.

[pHo3nix]

As far as exp and tring, many players are childishly impatient and do not plan for the inevitble lack of content in the later levels. So they outpace and outlevel the content and then find themselves stuck repeating quests more than they want to in order to cap. After crunching the numbers, anyone can cap with one run of each quest, on each difficulty for their first two lives (first run bonus only nets you 3.2 million for every quesnt (minus harbinger pack)). For their third life and beyond, just try a little harder in the quests. If you get first time, conquest, a minimum of 15% from breakables, and 10% for not dying and not reentering, you get a staggering 6.39million exp. So you have some wiggle room for failure, death, and quests that don't offer the full bonuses. There is no exp shortage in the game, just a shortage of patient tr players.

Have you capped a 2nd TR in this way? Cause i tried this and got tired after the harbor..there's too much xp/min disparity in quests to apply your method: shadowcrypt and babysit coyle should be the same lvl, one is more than 20k xp for 15 min, the other is 1,5k xp for 15 min: why in the hell someone should run that hell that is threnal 3 instead of shadowcrypt?

If they bring the xp of all quests in line with the best ones then the cap could stay where it is and there could be some variety..till then TR2+ will only be a boring repetition of easy quests, if you want to be back to the cap in a decent time.

Or they can just apply this:

I'm positive in this implementation:

• XP scale changed for all TR lives to cap at 1 900 000
• TR's can open and play quests at any difficulty setting
• On your first TR, Hero, in any quest on Normal difficulty you suffer a -50% XP penalty
• On your second TR, Legend, and any subsequent lives, you suffer -75% XP on Normal, and -50% on Hard settings

Result: Less grind, more skill needed, you can still run any diff you want but harder diffs are much better. More fun, more challenge.

This is the best idea ever. You can go the long and easy way, like now, try the fast and hard way, or a mix of the two. It should make all happy