Raise the Vorpal Thershold above 1000 HP

[sirgog]

Against a 2500hp mob (fairly typical epic trash HP) a tier 3 Epic Brigand's Cutlass with slotted Good DR already outperforms a Lit 2 in all situations, except if the mob is extra-susceptible to lightning, or is both chaotic and evil.

Vorpals have gone from 'always vendor them unless they are ones a sucker will buy' to seriously viable endgame weapons.

[stille_nacht]

i was misinformed D:, i thought that scimis were worse than lit IIs even with good slotted :/

[xxScoobyDooxx]

On my assassin III rogue - the only thing my vorpal effect does is steal the kill. With a good party in Epic when the mob's hp goes below 1000 they only last around 1-2 seconds more anyway .... IF in that final 1-2 seconds I get a 20 then I steal the kill. Even if I am solo killing they only last an additional few seconds. The Vorpal effect is pointless really other than kill count brag rights.

Assassination however ..... way way way cool. In chains I got 11 one shots and 1 double assassination.

[Chai]

holy smiters - when trying to smite something are not 1/6th as effective (vorpal 20 vs crit smite on 15-20). they are now only 1.5 damage (avg) pts below a holy greater construct weapon

No need to try and smite something. If everyone in the group has a smiter like they all did before anyway, that golem is going downtown judy brown with the level of DPS these things put out.

Please also note that people will grind epics to get gear that adds 2 damage to every swing. Now hold that along side the fact that these smiters banishers and disrupters are doing 4d6 extra damage per swing on mobs they are built to kill. 1/6th as effective? I beg to differ.

Banishing of pure good - if it's something that can be banished again 1/6th as effective. 4 pts damage dps below a holy of greater outsider bane weapon.

Again, the DPS benefit far outweighs the fact that it only insta kills on a 20 - its 4d6 damage per hit. In a group full of people using them this is insane.

vorpal of pure good - still good but not a dps weapon even now. Greater bane will stilll be a better option.

So we come to a choice here, we can either carry every single munchkin style "perfect weapon" for every case scenario we will encounter where the bane type changes, or we can carry one or two really good weapons (or sets) which will easily handle most case scenarios and a few other sets for when those really good combos dont work. How much backpack space do you have?

For leveling content, mid to higher level, my bard has been rolling around with a vorpal pure good falchion with icy burst on it for a while now. On 90% of all content I roll through its good enough. It may not be the single best spread sheet gamer weapon for each and every thing I use it on, but I get the job done. I have a +5 shocking burst pure good for bosses. Sure, I could replace these 2 weapons with a dump truck load of holy (specific bane) weapons, but then I have to change out every time I see a new mob. Next life he will be rolling around with a lit2 for everything he used both of those weapons on.

And we all know that holy of greater bane just grows on trees.

Banishers and smiters were fun before, now you might as well dps as it takes longer to hit a 20 than do the 6 extra hits to kill it.

Right, might as well DPS, and banishers and smiters ARE dps weapons. Banishing can even be coupled with GEOB, and my anarchic burst smiter now smacks golems for alot of damage, as well as portals, and maruts.

[Pikeman]

Of course not.. But its a logical conclusion for me to make based on your comments, dont you think?

You want Vorpals to work on 1000+ hit point mobs.. But you think they should have Heavy Fort. If you think they should have Heavy fort, why dontyou think they should have Deathblock? a Much lower "+" pretty common item enhancement...

I just reread my posts and realized that I had written them very poorly and ended up confusing two very different arguments. Please allow me to clarify my position here:

I believe intelligent mobs of CR 12 or better should routinely be given full fort.

I also believe that many mid to high level mobs should have deathblock, and for the same reason. that is, many players have deathblock (or are routinely deathwarded) for higher level quests.

[Impaqt]

I just reread my posts and realized that I had written them very poorly and ended up confusing two very different arguments. Please allow me to clarify my position here:

I believe intelligent mobs of CR 12 or better should routinely be given full fort.

I also believe that many mid to high level mobs should have deathblock, and for the same reason. that is, many players have deathblock (or are routinely deathwarded) for higher level quests.

Fine. *Poof* all mobs over 1000HP's have Deathblock now.

[Chai]

Fine. *Poof* all mobs over 1000HP's have Deathblock now.

Roads? Where we're going, we dont need roads.

I believe intelligent mobs of CR 12 or better should routinely be given full fort.

I also believe that many mid to high level mobs should have deathblock, and for the same reason. that is, many players have deathblock (or are routinely deathwarded) for higher level quests.

Implemented incorrectly, this brings us one step back to where we just were. Every mob past this point (/draws line) is immune to this effect.

I do like the fact that magic using mobs like say...the paladins in amrath, will cast deathward on themselves and then start fighting. I am not down for every loin cloth wearing ogre and troll sporting the latest in deathblock codpieces.

[Impaqt]

think people just need to be more careful about what they ask for...

Seriously.. The devs have given us tremendous latitude when it comes to equipping mobs we face.

Deathblock.. FoM.... Protection from Good, Heavy Fort, Resists, Protects... THey are all used sparingly.

These are things every Player character takes for granted. THings that render many attacks a mob has totally inneffective....

If mobs had hafl the items and buffs we had, conversations like this wouldnt exist.

[EdsanDarkbane]

I think it shows how little thought went into game balance

[BurnerD]

How about this:

1. Return Vorpals to their former capability.
2. Remove vorpal from epic/named items
3. Reduce durability and make them unable to be bound. This way they can take permanent damage.

The problem is that everyone has them and they never leave the system (unless they get vendored).
Another possibility would be that if the weapon reaches a certain amount of damage it no longer retains it's vorpal effect. (The blade no longer has the magical edge to go snick-snack and remove a head).

Technically any special effect weapon should probably have been treated this way. (vorps, smiters, disruptors, banishers)

I know that this isnt worth changing now, but just a thought for future additions mebbe.....

[MrWizard]

So now it's all about DPS and pure strength, tricked-out-to-the-max DPS toons. The min-max-grinders are happy 'cause they never used a variety of situational weapons anyhow.

Lest we remember that a vorpal still needed to be a *confirmed* critical anyhow.

So for we casual players, yet one more change that makes the game more difficult for us. Hit the LFM for a VoD normal just this past weekend. Leader wanted link to weps. I linked my LitII and my +4 seeker silver of PG. He replied that (I was on my rogue) my DPS would be too low and that if I had 2 LitIIs, he'd probably let me in.

This may be just antecdotal now but with the change to casters, it's all gonna be about max-DPS builds only, everyone else need not apply.

the leader gets -10 for asking to link weapons, and -50 for not knowing what a silver/PG weapon is...and -100 for even being the leader of a vod.

wonder how many hours it took to finally get started and get to the quest....hail our fearless leader.

[Impaqt]

I think it shows how little thought went into game balance

Because rendering every weapon except DPS completely useless is Fun? Because CC beng useless would be fun? I dont follow your logic...

[EdsanDarkbane]

think people just need to be more careful about what they ask for...

Seriously.. The devs have given us tremendous latitude when it comes to equipping mobs we face.

Deathblock.. FoM.... Protection from Good, Heavy Fort, Resists, Protects... THey are all used sparingly.

These are things every Player character takes for granted. THings that render many attacks a mob has totally inneffective....

If mobs had hafl the items and buffs we had, conversations like this wouldnt exist.

Read this quote.

Zoom out to the big picture here, because we have these things and the bad guys dont, we create an atmosphere that is ripe for overexageration.

[sirgog]

i was misinformed D:, i thought that scimis were worse than lit IIs even with good slotted :/

Talking epic trash here. DR/good is the only important DR in epics except for a couple of bosses, all of whom have well over 2500hp.

[grodon9999]

the leader gets -10 for asking to link weapons . . .

Why? If you aren't breaking DR you are piking. What is wrong with asking people if they can break DR?

[Impaqt]

Why? If you aren't breaking DR you are piking. What is wrong with asking people if they can break DR?

because thats not true first off.... Many things can be done by a player without a DR Breaker.. THere are many weapons that dont Break DR but still do more damage than a basic DR Breaker as well.

Fact is, you dont need 12 people that can break DR in any raid.. You dont Need 8. You dont even need 1... SO what if it takes a couple extra minutes?

[grodon9999]

because thats not true first off.... Many things can be done by a player without a DR Breaker.. THere are many weapons that dont Break DR but still do more damage than a basic DR Breaker as well.

Fact is, you dont need 12 people that can break DR in any raid.. You dont Need 8. You dont even need 1... SO what if it takes a couple extra minutes?

What are these "many things" you speak of? Vorp the trash? Oops, not can't do that any more . . .

Besides Lighning IIs on normal (I really don't give a fig about normal, talking hard and elite) anyone who has those weapons is gonna have Met/PG unless they are really stupid. Yeah sure a +5 Met/PG Khopesh is out of the reach of most but you're better off using a lesser weapon (Battle axe, longsword, etc . . .) than losing 25-35 a swing

I'm sorry, I just think expecting people to carry your butt through a quest because you're too cheap to buy DR breaking weapons is piking.

[Chai]

Read this quote.

Zoom out to the big picture here, because we have these things and the bad guys dont, we create an atmosphere that is ripe for overexageration.

Yeap, but the other extreme, is what we were playing since epics came out until MOD 9 was released - which is that mobs in epics were immune to everything save for a few options. When players gravitated to those options (as expected) the formula was created for epics where they could be beat using the same single strategy for most of them. This creates an equal amount of overexageration, as well as an atmosphere where only a few things work.

There has to be a happy medium. Maybe U9 is closer to it or maybe it isnt, but one thing we DO have is more options. None of this would have even been debatable pre U9. More options is a good thing.

[Chai]

What are these "many things" you speak of? Vorp the trash? Oops, not can't do that any more . . .

Besides Lighning IIs on normal (I really don't give a fig about normal, talking hard and elite) anyone who has those weapons is gonna have Met/PG unless they are really stupid. Yeah sure a +5 Met/PG Khopesh is out of the reach of most but you're better off using a lesser weapon (Battle axe, longsword, etc . . .) than losing 25-35 a swing

I'm sorry, I just think expecting people to carry your butt through a quest because you're too cheap to buy DR breaking weapons is piking.

There are already people at level 40+ crafting in all 3 tiers on live. They can make whatever they need at this point. Soon enough when this crafting thing matures people wont be able to make any excuses for not having DR breakers.

[grodon9999]

There are already people at level 40+ crafting in all 3 tiers on live. They can make whatever they need at this point. Soon enough when this crafting thing matures people wont be able to make any excuses for not having DR breakers.

A decent DR-breaking rapier drops in the new mission pack as well.