General Paladin Questions

[lord_of_rage]

Not even close and ur over-exaggerating what I said.

I have no problems with what she said at all....but I also know that it's much more important for a person to know that just because you make a halfling paladin instead of a Drow Elf Paladin that ur not going to be gimped beyond reason and the OP really hinted at wanting to make a halfling.

If you noticed my first reply I suggested human or drow.....not disagreeing just saying.....race is a small factor in success of a build unless you're talking about a WF'ed caster simply because they are far more survivable than a fleshy for the most part.

I would agree drow tho in this case overall simply because of the 4 extra build points......but that would be the only reason....if you do have 32 pt access tho you should always pick the race that floats your boat the most.

You said this Originally Posted by vVAnjilaVv
Bah....while this statement is somewhat true....the real fact of the matter is it's the player not the class that is most important along with what you will be happy with.

That is what I commented on. And to be honest it comes off as an unfocused mini rant. There is no useful information in that post. Period. Also notice Aylin said 28pt. She did not mention 32pt builds. So it may in fact be you who is over exaggerating. The op states he does not have access to 32pt builds. So any reference to them is a moot point for the op. And to be honest the 28pt drow is the best twf paladin route at 28points. The halfling 28 point twf build would look like this at best. 15str, 15dex,12con, 8int, 8 wis, 14 cha. Thats really tight and not optimal. You need all 5 lvls in str and you will hit dm3 at the max with a +4 tome. You would also want kopesh on a halfling. So you would most likely drop extend. Drow get rapier. They are cheaper and help with to hit. I feel race is a major factor in 28 and 32 point paladin builds. In 32pts twf I feel human and helf work the best.THF 32pt I feel wf and Horc work the best. As a long time paladin player who has ran twf, and thf paladins of various races for years I know what difference it makes. It is a major factor in stat starved builds like paladins.

In reference to your original post a 32 point human twf paladin is just as strapped for build points as a drow 28pt. The ideal set up being 16str, 15dex, 12 con, 8int, 8wis,16cha. All lvl ups to str. Unless you have the +3 cha tome for dm4 in the bank. Then id use one point in cha for dm4 then lesser after getting the ever elusive +4 tome. There just isnt alot of room to shift points around. TWF paladins will have to hit issues in epics until the str breaks the 38-40 mark and you start really getting your epic gear. So you need the str. You need the cha for dm 3-4. Con well its not fun to leave it at a 12 but its doable. Most TWF builds under 34 points do. Those that dont lose dps. A well built paladin is very rewarding. A poorly built paladin is frustrating. They are by far one of my favorite classes in game. But also one of the hardest to get right. I wish the op the best of luck. If he is on Khyber Ill hook him up with gear and pots.

[-Zyxas-]

I honestly think drow is the best 28pt TWF pally. 16/16/12/10/8/16. Don't count too much on +3 tomes, you'll get them eventually, but +2 are more reliable - 17 Cha is not that great of a choice. I never see any builds built around having a +3 tome except drow pallies' Charisma. There's no logical reason for it. Eventually you can get a +4 tome too, while this is more luck it is still a possibility, and builds should be built around ending at the maximum, not almost the maximum. I doubt that with only 28pt you'll want to use +2 tomes too much, so 16 dex and drow is a good way to go too rather than human with 15 dex.

As a Drow pally you probably won't tank much especially when there are barbarians and fighters with billions of HP and balanced DPS on everything. I suggest not taking Intim unless you're sure you'll be the tank most often, which is not the case for TWF'ers a lot. Balance and concentration are good choices, although most people like UMD too. Balance can have leftover points after you get a +2 int tome possibly, or you can just forget it. It helps but it doesn't need to be max. Concentration is nice to rebuff with mobs around (like boss fights), UMD is something that you will miss a LOT if you choose not to get it (I know this by experience =/ ).

Do it the way you want to, but you'll find something you agree with in this suggestion. It's your character, your life, and you can have fun with it even if you don't do it my way.

[Alternative]

Drow with rapiers and racial enhancements is a great choice for first life paladin dps. 16/16/12/10/8/16 were the exact stats I started my drow paladin nearly 2 years ago. At one point I LR'ed to 18/2 rogue splash for evasion and loved it ever since. Haste boost x5 might not be sustainable, but is enough for pretty much every raid boss fight; and you don't have to worry about cha for DM4.

Hunter of the dead is great to start with - free ghost touch and neg level immunity are invaluable. After you're done with necropolis and begin vale of twilight you can switch to kotc (by then you will have your own deathward spell, and possibly spectral gloves so hotd becomes meh)

Extend is a great feat to have, not essential but its such a pita to keep track of 2~ minute long zeal and divine favor (with 1 minute divine might on top of that)

Keep your wisdom at base 8, would be convinient to have more but you cant afford it.

Keep int at base 10, get umd and balance, if you can afford +2 tome at lvl7 buy one and put points into jump (there is a nice jump clicky at end game, but it's still good idea to have some undispellable jump)

Also make sure you take and use divine sacrifice enhancement line, and use it every 3 seconds. Divine righteousness is also great for when you need to hate tank, just don't be a d*ck and don't use it when not asked to tank

[t0pazdrag0n]

Quick question that I don't think I'm following. I see people saying things like "Drow TWF with rapierS..." Rapiers aren't light so I can't have one on hand and one off hand, correct? Or is the assumption that I'm taking the Oversized feat?

I was considering it, but it seems like it would be alot to spend on just changing my off hand from shortsword to rapier.

Also, I'm on Thelanis for the person who asked.

[karl_k0ch]

Quick question that I don't think I'm following. I see people saying things like "Drow TWF with rapierS..." Rapiers aren't light so I can't have one on hand and one off hand, correct? Or is the assumption that I'm taking the Oversized feat?

I was considering it, but it seems like it would be alot to spend on just changing my off hand from shortsword to rapier.

Also, I'm on Thelanis for the person who asked.

With or without any of the TWF feats, you are allowed to wield a one-handed weapon in each hand, regardless of size. What the TWF feat does, and also what the OTWF feat does, is to reduce the to-hit penalty when doing so.

Taken from here http://ddowiki.com/page/TWF

Two Weapon Fighting reduces the to-hit penalty when using two weapons at the same time. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off-hand lessens by 6, so it becomes -4 (main hand) / -4 (off-hand) (instead of -6/-10 without this feat). If the off-hand weapon is light, the penalties both decrease by another 2 points, down to -2/-2 (instead of -4/-8 without this feat).

and here: http://ddowiki.com/page/Oversized_Two_Weapon_Fighting

Oversized Two Weapon Fighting removes the -2 to-hit penalty on each hand for using a weapon that is not a light weapon on your offhand. Normally you suffer a -2 penalty to hit on each hand if your offhand weapon is not light.

This way, a Drow with TWF and two rapiers will have -4/-4 to hit, and with OTWF added to that -2/-2. Not a big difference, actually.

[lord_of_rage]

Quick question that I don't think I'm following. I see people saying things like "Drow TWF with rapierS..." Rapiers aren't light so I can't have one on hand and one off hand, correct? Or is the assumption that I'm taking the Oversized feat?

I was considering it, but it seems like it would be alot to spend on just changing my off hand from shortsword to rapier.

Also, I'm on Thelanis for the person who asked.

Drow get the rapier and short sword proficiency action points. You can get a total of +2 to hit and damage. As karl said you get a -4 to hit using 2 rapiers. But most of us use 2 full sized weapons. The to hit is easily made up with buffs and good gear. Honestly if they open the last event up again the cuthroat small blade is an awesome off hand weapon as its basicly a rapier. You dont need oversized. It gives a marginal benefit for a feat on a feat starved build.

[Templarion]

It's just my personal preference but

...I have never even thought of making paladin out of 28pt build. I would absolutely TR before making paladin just because they need so many stats. Paladin should be considered as a multiclass - not even all multiclasses need so many different stats.

Consider playing barbarian life (basicly needs just STR & CON) and TR it to a paladin. That way you get a way stronger build.

[lord_of_rage]

It's just my personal preference but

...I have never even thought of making paladin out of 28pt build. I would absolutely TR before making paladin just because they need so many stats. Paladin should be considered as a multiclass - not even all multiclasses need so many different stats.

Consider playing barbarian life (basicly needs just STR & CON) and TR it to a paladin. That way you get a way stronger build.

The 28 point drow is a fine paladin build.It works well and is a cheap char to get going with. Not having to craft min2s or get dr breakers is a major +.

[t0pazdrag0n]

I guess I never thought that having an additional -2 to my attacks was acceptable. I never really merged my PnP philosophy with the way to hit/AC works in DDO. I think I'll stick with the Rapier & Shortsword right now just b/c its what I have and when AC becomes less relevant I'll go to the double rapiers.

Also, since I'm not all ultra-competitive about my build I don't mind the 4 points less. I mean yeah I could do all the TR that Templarion is suggesting but, um that sounds like it takes forever.

[karl_k0ch]

I guess I never thought that having an additional -2 to my attacks was acceptable. I never really merged my PnP philosophy with the way to hit/AC works in DDO. I think I'll stick with the Rapier & Shortsword right now just b/c its what I have and when AC becomes less relevant I'll go to the double rapiers.

This is very much a plan, especially as long as you have not the full TWF line, where having a less damaging weapon in the off-hand has not such a large impact.

In regards to to-hit, going from worst to best:

Dual Rapiers with PA (-9/-9) -> Rapier + SS with PA (-7/-7)-> Dual Rapiers w/o PA (-4/-4)-> Rapier + SS w/o PA (-2/-2).

I think that this is also the order from best to worst damage dealt. (I could be wrong in the middle, depending on smites and the actual damage bonus).

So, idealistically, you want to hit when you when you roll a 2. If you realize that this is not possible with the current kind of mobs, move down one step or two in the list above.
If you realize you hit on a 2 with your current weapon setup, see if you still hit on a 2 with PA switched on and/or Dual Rapiers.

I second: 28pt Drow is a good choice for a TWF pally.

[elujin]

If from the same class, you can only take one.
You cant be a HotD and KotC

But multiclassing you can have more:

an elf can do:: Assassin I, Warchanter I, kensai I, Arcane archer. (and yes this build is possible, you do have the ap for it)

omg i need to roll one up :O (altisme check : fail! )

i am going to echo that for 28 point twf paladin drow is the supirior choice of not the (near) only choice

[Ungood]

While others have given you some great advice, this is my advice, as it is. Now I have played a paladin to 20th (Which I am sure others here have as well) but my advice is based on just playing the class.

TWF vs THF:

Personally, I always take THF and Sword/Board combos, mainly due to the fact that heavy armor will kill your Dex bonus. Again, you might opt to use Mitheral, or just go with med armor, or even just splash in monk and not worry about armor at all. That is your choice in the end of things. But I normally build s pure 20 Pally, so, to me, it's typically full plate armor.

However, as a personal choice, I always go THF, thus I can adjust my points, to lower Dex (Giving me now 2 dump stats (Int/Dex) in a stat starved class) and thus allow me to increase Con.

Also, THF, requires that I only have 1 weapon to deal with any situation. If this is a starting (first time) build, cost of gear and equipment is a strong factor into what you will be able to optimally.

Constitution and other Stats

As a paladin, I want my Con to be 14 Minimum. While, yes you can get away with a 12, note that will hurt your HP total and your fort save. (This is highly contingent on play style, but still a consideration)

I also want a high Cha, and Str, for obvious reasons.

Now, getting to Wisdom. While others have said, tank it to 8, as a personal note, I never let mine drop below 10, first for will save, second, for a + Wis item. I get spells at 4, very handy spells for a 4th level tank. Seeing to it that if I have a 10 wisdom, then I only need a +1 Wisdom item to cast, vs a +3 wisdom item, to me, it was a matter of ease to get my hands on. I know I can get the +1 easy enough, and if I get higher then it is just more mana for me. I may not be able to get a usable +3 wisdom item for a 4th level.

But on that, use your own judgment.

Feats

Personally, I have always found the Paladin class to be a bit feat limited. But, first and foremost, if yuo take no other feat, you will want to start out of the generator with Toughness

After that you might want to consider:
Power Attack
Improved Critical (Slash/Blunt)
Mental Toughness
Extend Spell
Weapon Focus (Slash/Blunt)
Two Handed Fighting (Imp/greater?)
Stunning Blow

And while, I realize you can't take all of these, these are the feats you will want to look into taking, and the pick the ones that work the best for you.

I wish you the best with your new Paladin, they can be a joy to play.

Happy Gaming.

[elujin]

Quick question that I don't think I'm following. I see people saying things like "Drow TWF with rapierS..." Rapiers aren't light so I can't have one on hand and one off hand, correct? Or is the assumption that I'm taking the Oversized feat?

I was considering it, but it seems like it would be alot to spend on just changing my off hand from shortsword to rapier.

Also, I'm on Thelanis for the person who asked.

at the later levels you prob won't need the otwf or small off hand to hit will but earlyer on you can just use a short sword in your offhand .

[NaturalHazard]

just got a question I know everyone says paladin you must go pure........ but would a 18 pally 2 monk, be doable? People have expressed concerns over hp and gear on a starting player, wont evasion help and with 17 dex for 2wf, racial dex bonus, and high charisma added to saves will the reflex saves be high enough to do it? 2 monk levels also give 2 bonus feats?

Or could go 2 rogue for more umd and skills, and the sneak attack and haste attack boost?

misses out on the capstone though.

Also with thf and going elf for falchion, do you get falchions in holy sword form now?

Thought maybe human would be best for 2hf? How would a dwarf do? could use a great axe, be behind in cha but solid HP, though dont think you get great axe with holy sword either so untill you get a better dr breaker be using a greatsword holy sword? so wasted AP?

[karl_k0ch]

NaturalHazard, I suggest to take your time to read through Junts' guild to building paldins, linked in my signature.

Monk and Rogue splashes are both viable.

No Holy Sword Falchions so far.

Dwarf is a rather bad choice for a pally, imho.

[Ungood]

just got a question I know everyone says paladin you must go pure........ but would a 18 pally 2 monk, be doable?

My wife has an 18/2 (planned) pally in the works, so far, she is loving it,(level 16) all the stats work together, so there is no wasted spot and you can still dump INT. But be ready to use a +2 Tome to all your stats.

[lord_of_rage]

While others have given you some great advice, this is my advice, as it is. Now I have played a paladin to 20th (Which I am sure others here have as well) but my advice is based on just playing the class.

TWF vs THF:

Personally, I always take THF and Sword/Board combos, mainly due to the fact that heavy armor will kill your Dex bonus. Again, you might opt to use Mitheral, or just go with med armor, or even just splash in monk and not worry about armor at all. That is your choice in the end of things. But I normally build s pure 20 Pally, so, to me, it's typically full plate armor.

However, as a personal choice, I always go THF, thus I can adjust my points, to lower Dex (Giving me now 2 dump stats (Int/Dex) in a stat starved class) and thus allow me to increase Con.

Also, THF, requires that I only have 1 weapon to deal with any situation. If this is a starting (first time) build, cost of gear and equipment is a strong factor into what you will be able to optimally.

Constitution and other Stats

As a paladin, I want my Con to be 14 Minimum. While, yes you can get away with a 12, note that will hurt your HP total and your fort save. (This is highly contingent on play style, but still a consideration)

I also want a high Cha, and Str, for obvious reasons.

Now, getting to Wisdom. While others have said, tank it to 8, as a personal note, I never let mine drop below 10, first for will save, second, for a + Wis item. I get spells at 4, very handy spells for a 4th level tank. Seeing to it that if I have a 10 wisdom, then I only need a +1 Wisdom item to cast, vs a +3 wisdom item, to me, it was a matter of ease to get my hands on. I know I can get the +1 easy enough, and if I get higher then it is just more mana for me. I may not be able to get a usable +3 wisdom item for a 4th level.

But on that, use your own judgment.

Feats

Personally, I have always found the Paladin class to be a bit feat limited. But, first and foremost, if yuo take no other feat, you will want to start out of the generator with Toughness

After that you might want to consider:
Power Attack
Improved Critical (Slash/Blunt)
Mental Toughness
Extend Spell
Weapon Focus (Slash/Blunt)
Two Handed Fighting (Imp/greater?)
Stunning Blow

And while, I realize you can't take all of these, these are the feats you will want to look into taking, and the pick the ones that work the best for you.

I wish you the best with your new Paladin, they can be a joy to play.

Happy Gaming.

Dex is great for reflex saves and needed for the twf line. A paladin wont have a great ac unless you spec for it.

THF can be fun. I enjoy my wf thf paladin. But my twf human cranked out more dps.

Con the difference between a 12 and a 14 base con is 20 hp and one point of a fort save. You really are not gaining that much with 2 more points of con.

Saves you mention saves alot. Paladins have amazing saves and a bunch of immunities. Your saves should all be in the 30s well geared. Saves really are not an issue on a paladin.

Spells can be nice. With update 9 its easier to cast low lvl. But I still advocate an 8 wis. You can get ml5 bta +3 wis items.

Feats

Weapon focus is a bad choice on a paladin. You get very small boost for a feat. IMO unless you need the feat for a pre like a warchanter or Kensai I would never take the feat to begin with

Mental toughness same as above. Its a wasted feat on a paladin. Paladins are so starved on feats its just not worth it.

Stunning Blow while nice you will not have the DCs at endgame.


Ideal feat layout for a paladin is something like this.

Pure paladin

TWF/THF
ITWF/ITHF
GTWF/GTHF
Power Attack
Imp Crit slash or pierce
Toughness
Extend(or kopesh if not human drow or elf twf)
Kopesh if human

As you can see there are just no for fun feats on a pure paladin.

[Ungood]

Ideal feat layout for a paladin is something like this.

We will have to agree to disagree.

I have hunted with many paladins that followed your (or similar) make up, compared to what I proposed they seemed, for lack of a better word, frail.

Might be my perceptions on things, after all, I was playing a Paladin alongside them. sword and boarding it. But I was not impressed in the sense, that I would have been inspired to make a similar build (at the time at least).

But I will admit, the repetition of this build layout did get my attention after a while, and I have a paladin along these lines (THF, HORC), and while, yes, he can DPS impressively, I am rather underwhelmed by his AC, HP, Saves, and all around survivability, he seems rather frail compared to what I proposed.

Abet, a bit better in a solid group where he can focus on being DPS, in a haphazard PUG not so much. (At least such is my personal experience) (I need to upgrade his gear anyway, that has to be a contributing factor, but my first build was loosely outfitted at what he could get as he could get, so. in that regard they are mostly the same)

The Low Wisdom I realize was a total mistake as it dropped his will save, and that is not good, especially when that is against all the mind spells (like Hold, Charm. Ottos) and while I did not feel it until Elite Kobold Assault at 5th it really started to hurt his overall ability to hold his own.

As for Dex, I thought Full Plate made it neigh impossible to make a reflex save.

As for the Con, issue, to get a full realization of what this means, just think of what people are willing to do for 2 more points of con, and 20 more HP the answer is obvious at how important that 2 Con is. And Con, unlike Dex, has no cap at what point it no longer becomes important to a Melee build. You can keep upping the con and it only improves the build. at 17, Dex pretty much caps off into worthless, as that is all that is needed for the feats.

In regards to Spells, I will always advocate more SP for a pally. Self heals and back up heals in pinch. survivability vs DPS, is the question in this case. In many cases, casting that extra heal spell or being able to cast remove curse resist, or even just one more Divine Favor/Zeal combo is the difference between winning and wiping. I would drop Power Attack and take Mental Toughness if the choice came down to it.

But these are just my observations from playing paladins. I am sure, everyone has their build that suits their play-style. I am not advocating that I am the authority, or that I am right . but simply this is what I have done, and played with, and witnessed in game. Like anything, take that as you will.

(I personally took the weapon focus to try and counter the Power Attack To-Hit Loss, but I can see where it is really not an optimal feat, Greater THF would be better in that case, noted)

Spells can be nice. With update 9 its easier to cast low lvl. But I still advocate an 8 wis. You can get ml5 bta +3 wis items.

Source please. I'd like one actually. (perhaps a few as I am always tinkering with a new pally here and there)

[Warganom]

Ideal feat layout for a paladin is something like this.

Pure paladin

TWF/THF
ITWF/ITHF
GTWF/GTHF
Power Attack
Imp Crit slash or pierce
Toughness
Extend(or kopesh if not human drow or elf twf)
Kopesh if human

As you can see there are just no for fun feats on a pure paladin.

Honestly I wouldn't really get kopeshes on a paladin, the difference between scimitars/ rapiers and kopesh is only 2 points of base damage. Their crit profiles are also equally good damage wise but the scimitar/ rapier one works better with divine sacrifice.

I've recently decided that I'd make a paladin and therefor I checked it out, and even made 3 seperate builds for elf, human and drow elf, don't really remember the exact numbers... But I think it was that for every 20 divine sacrifice you make you'd have gotten 30 times base damage more damage with kopesh and 32 times base damage more with scimitars and rapiers... Given that you didn't luck out and got 20 crits of course... Or if I seriously misunderstood how it works, in which case I'd be glad too be corrected.

Anyway, if I'm right the damage difference is even more minor on a paladin and scimitars and rapiers might even get ahead of kopeshes and therefor I'd rather go with a "fun" feat instead. Otherwise that list is spot on. Ohh and it's still your choise, if I had a couple GS kopeshes lying around I would probobly pick up the kopesh feat anyway.

[lord_of_rage]

We will have to agree to disagree.

I have hunted with many paladins that followed your (or similar) make up, compared to what I proposed they seemed, for lack of a better word, frail.

Might be my perceptions on things, after all, I was playing a Paladin alongside them. sword and boarding it. But I was not impressed in the sense, that I would have been inspired to make a similar build (at the time at least).

But I will admit, the repetition of this build layout did get my attention after a while, and I have a paladin along these lines (THF, HORC), and while, yes, he can DPS impressively, I am rather underwhelmed by his AC, HP, Saves, and all around survivability, he seems rather frail compared to what I proposed.

Abet, a bit better in a solid group where he can focus on being DPS, in a haphazard PUG not so much. (At least such is my personal experience) (I need to upgrade his gear anyway, that has to be a contributing factor, but my first build was loosely outfitted at what he could get as he could get, so. in that regard they are mostly the same)

The Low Wisdom I realize was a total mistake as it dropped his will save, and that is not good, especially when that is against all the mind spells (like Hold, Charm. Ottos) and while I did not feel it until Elite Kobold Assault at 5th it really started to hurt his overall ability to hold his own.

As for Dex, I thought Full Plate made it neigh impossible to make a reflex save.

As for the Con, issue, to get a full realization of what this means, just think of what people are willing to do for 2 more points of con, and 20 more HP the answer is obvious at how important that 2 Con is. And Con, unlike Dex, has no cap at what point it no longer becomes important to a Melee build. You can keep upping the con and it only improves the build. at 17, Dex pretty much caps off into worthless, as that is all that is needed for the feats.

In regards to Spells, I will always advocate more SP for a pally. Self heals and back up heals in pinch. survivability vs DPS, is the question in this case. In many cases, casting that extra heal spell or being able to cast remove curse resist, or even just one more Divine Favor/Zeal combo is the difference between winning and wiping. I would drop Power Attack and take Mental Toughness if the choice came down to it.

But these are just my observations from playing paladins. I am sure, everyone has their build that suits their play-style. I am not advocating that I am the authority, or that I am right . but simply this is what I have done, and played with, and witnessed in game. Like anything, take that as you will.

(I personally took the weapon focus to try and counter the Power Attack To-Hit Loss, but I can see where it is really not an optimal feat, Greater THF would be better in that case, noted)



Source please. I'd like one actually. (perhaps a few as I am always tinkering with a new pally here and there)

AC : Unless you specifically build for ac your ac will not matter past giant hold. IE unless you go DOS on a paladin and have a standing ac of 65 or higher it will not matter in the shroud, Reavers Refuge, IQ or Amarath. So tossing a shield on a dps paladin isnt going to matter. You get 8-10 more ac and do much less dps. Your AC will not be high enough. Also to get a high ac you need lots of dex. The DOS line gives you added dex bonuses to med and heavy armor. Which makes a higher dex needed.

Wisdom : Going from a 10 wis to an 8 wis isnt going to break the build. You are -1 point on will saves. What it does do is allows you to spend thos points where they are needed. Places like Str, dex, con, and cha. Protection from evil and freedom of movement prevent holds and other mind effect spells. None of my paladins have had saves issues low lvl.

Dex: TWF does more dps than THF. TWF requires a 17 dex for the max lvls. Heavy armor hurts your reflex save but doesnt kill it. Also unless you are built for ac ie a DOS build armor stops mattering after gianthold as mentioned. At endgame a KOTC paladin is going to get hit all the time. So honestly all you are really concerned about is what effects the armor has on it. My human ran DT robes with +5 resist corrosive salt and radiance on it. His reflex was fine.

CON: As Ive said before that 20 really isnt that important nor is it really noticed once you hit the vale and beyond. Those 20 points of con can be made up with gear and buffs like rage. However the added natural cha to hit dm3- 4 cannot be made up by buffs.

Spells and sp. Remove curse comes in pots. You cant cast rc while madstoned. Self heals can be done via Unyielding sov and lay on hands. Most KOTCs get 4 loh's at over 300 a pop. You should also have a high enough umd via items and cha to throw heal scrolls with a high chance of them going off. I would never ever take mental toughness over power attack. That is anywhere from 5 to 16 extra damage per swing. The spell points can be made up via pots, a conc opp item or a torc. Or you could use all three. The damage from power attack cannot be picked up anywhere else. No melee should ever not take power attack.

Defender Of Syberis builds: I will never advocate a DOS build for a new player. Thats why i didnt recomend onne in this thread. They are just very gear and stat intensive. Its very hard to get a really good DOS build thats not 34-36 points. But they will give you the ac you seek. They will also give you the tank / dps option you seem to really enjoy.

For your playstyle Id advocate a 18P2m Human with a self healing option. Basicly a typical KOTC build only using harder to get raid loot and maximize/quicken you get a ton of self healing. As long as you are getting hit you will recover sp. But you would need to craft an concordant opposition item from the shroud and run dq2 untill you pull a torc. My guildie has a pure lvl20 DOS build with a self healing option. He hits a high 80s raid buffed AC does THF dps via silver slotted ESOS, and is very very survivable. For you ungood it sounds like something you might enjoy. Ill see if I can get him to post it. Also Junts Jaerlach build is his base.