Khopeshes or piercing weaps for a rogue....

[EliahuTheMighty]

Alright, now here's the big question: Which of them is easier/more fun throughout the game (Lvl's 1-20)? BEFORE GS is an option? GS is BtC, right? So I can't make one for the rogue with my fighter. So which option is more feasible from the duringgame perspective, as opposed to the endgame persective?

I realize that this is a fairly subjective question, and that the answer can be determined from the above info, but I'm wondering if there's more thought on the matter, or if the answer if different, since most info above is about end results (which could very well be how to play DDO effectively).

Are rogues good for dps early on, with either option? If I don't want to be dying all the time, but want to be doing high dps, should I do dmg upgrades first, then health, or vice versa, or mix?

I'll probably specialize in Khopesh with all the upgrading feats, and have rapiers and shortswords as backups (might have said before) but I appreciate all of the discussion. :-)

[tekkentroop]

Mixing weapon types is probably not a good idea, since you wont benefit from improved critical and getting 2 improved crit feats seems a bit of a waste. If you have a fighter splash, you could use scimitars for radiance. Losing capstone probably isnt a good idea for rogue assassin either, though.

Khopesh is slightly more crit damage, but on my bard/rogue I went Rapier/Shortsword to save 1-2 feats effectively (no need for otwf with a cutthroats smallblade in offhand). But then, bards are a bit more feat starved than rogues so these feats matter more.

If you have the feat and arent a drow (extra damage with rapiers) definitely go Khopesh. High crits are always fun.

Actually, the only investment a rogue makes in defense is getting toughness feat and getting racial toughness enhancements, which are rather cheap. Shouldnt be a problem to fit them in early.

[elujin]

one thing that isn't mentioned becous it doesn't matter mutch in the end with greensteels but rapiers are far cheaper then khopeshes

[zwiebelring]

Kopeshs are weapons you should customize in Shroud (or now completely new with U9 crafting). It is still a rare drop compared to other weapons. I see more rapiers and more important, cheaper rapier offerings in the ah than kopeshs.

So, if you don't want to spend too much time in the crafting hall or do not have Shroud content I think, every specific class based weapon or racial weapon proficiency is a better choice.

[Feithlin]

also, you could always just take improved crit: pierce in addition to IC: slash, and use radiance rapiers, then switch to your khopesehs

You'd better use Rad II scimis and master's touch scrolls imo.

[Feithlin]

Alright, now here's the big question: Which of them is easier/more fun throughout the game (Lvl's 1-20)? BEFORE GS is an option? GS is BtC, right? So I can't make one for the rogue with my fighter. So which option is more feasible from the duringgame perspective, as opposed to the endgame persective?

The upgraded GS weapon is BTC, but the blank is only bound when equiped. The ingredients (raw or manufactured) are not bound and can be passed to another character.
The only thing you will need are the shards, but you could get them in a single shroud run if ppl are nice enough to give you the shards they get from chest.

[Jiirix]

If you have allready some good Khopeshes and some mats to craft greensteel ones you can go for the better damage compared to similar rapiers. But if you are a new player you will do more damage with rapiers and shortswords (or even daggers) for a long time. I used shortswords and daggers on my first rogue because those were the best things I could get my hands on. They are cheap on the auction house and most players will pass such weapons to you when found. Khopeshes are very expensiv and most player have a own toon useing them. By speccing for pierce weapons you can use the cheaper once until higher levels when you can get good rapiers. With focus on kopesh and therefore slashing you may have to wait longer for nice weapons to use.

[Feithlin]

Are rogues good for dps early on, with either option? If I don't want to be dying all the time, but want to be doing high dps, should I do dmg upgrades first, then health, or vice versa, or mix?

The typical feat order on a str-based rogue is (for a non human):
TWF, Toughness, PA (or Exotic: khopesh), iTWF, IC: piercing (or slashing if using khopeshes), gTWF, your choice (or PA if using khopeshes).

[suszterpatt]

Rapier is the best.

Picks and rapiers have, on average, the same crit profile (22 times damage over 20 swings). However, you can go quite a while without rolling a single 20, and even then, picks deal less base damage. Also note that some on-crit effects don't scale with crit multiplier, e.g. Radiance or Puncturing. Rapiers are the clear winner in this case, since only the frequency of crits counts. My rogue uses dual puncturing rapiers on trash (with improved crit and GTWF), and quite often completely drains their CON before killing them. Khopeshes have a slightly higher crit profile (23 over 20), but lower threat range and base damage. Not worth the feat.

Ever since the passive Assassin bonus changed from Seeker to extra Sneak Attack dice, crits just aren't that important for rogues. Most of your damage will be coming from SA, which isn't multiplied on crits.

[karl_k0ch]

Rapier is the best.

It is not. But it is a viable alternative to Khopesh.

[AylinIsAwesome]

also, you could always just take improved crit: pierce in addition to IC: slash, and use radiance rapiers, then switch to your khopesehs

No, the OP cannot do this.

TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Toughness, Power Attack, first Improved Critical. That's 6. If the OP takes Khopesh with the 7th feat, that means none left over for the second Improved Critical you mention.

[suszterpatt]

It is not. But it is a viable alternative to Khopesh.

I must be missing something, cause I just don't see it. Assuming a fairly generous 40-50 base damage, the better crit profile still only averages out to 2-2.5 extra points of damage per swing. Add another 50 average from SA plus some misc holy/lit2/whatever damage, and you're looking at a ~2% dps increase. Which is ok for the price of a feat, but not better than the TWF chain or even Power Attack.

That's 4 feats off the bat that are better at boosting DPS. You'll also want Toughness and OTWF, so we're down to our last feat now. Supposing you roll with Keens at all times so you don't need Improved Crit (which would otherwise be a better DPS booster), I'd still prefer something like Skill Focus: Search or Lightning/Insightful Reflexes to deal with epic traps.

[Bufo_Alvarius]

picks deal less base damage.

When did 1d6 > 1d6?

[karl_k0ch]

I must be missing something, cause I just don't see it. Assuming a fairly generous 40-50 base damage, the better crit profile still only averages out to 2-2.5 extra points of damage per swing. Add another 50 average from SA plus some misc holy/lit2/whatever damage, and you're looking at a ~2% dps increase. Which is ok for the price of a feat, but not better than the TWF chain or even Power Attack.

That's 4 feats off the bat that are better at boosting DPS. You'll also want Toughness and OTWF, so we're down to our last feat now. Supposing you roll with Keens at all times so you don't need Improved Crit (which would otherwise be a better DPS booster), I'd still prefer something like Skill Focus: Search or Lightning/Insightful Reflexes to deal with epic traps.

Just to be sure that we are talking about the same thing.

I was comparing

Rapiers with the feats: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, PA, IC: Pierce, Toughness and an extra feat

to

Khopeshes with the feats: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, PA, IC: Slash, Toughness and EWP: Khopesh.

In this comparison, Khopesh usually wins, damage-wise, but the Rapier add other options such as a past life feat, SF: UMD, or other neat stuff.

Saying that rapiers are "best" might be a personal opinion, but it is not a general fact. I am not denying the fact that Rapier + other feat can deal more damage than Khopeshes and no other feat, but in general, they don't.

If you were comparing Picks to Rapiers (which I thought was already discussed before), i do see your point.

[SableShadow]

I must be missing something, cause I just don't see it. Assuming a fairly generous 40-50 base damage, the better crit profile still only averages out to 2-2.5 extra points of damage per swing. Add another 50 average from SA plus some misc holy/lit2/whatever damage, and you're looking at a ~2% dps increase. Which is ok for the price of a feat, but not better than the TWF chain or even Power Attack.

That's 4 feats off the bat that are better at boosting DPS. You'll also want Toughness and OTWF, so we're down to our last feat now. Supposing you roll with Keens at all times so you don't need Improved Crit (which would otherwise be a better DPS booster), I'd still prefer something like Skill Focus: Search or Lightning/Insightful Reflexes to deal with epic traps.

Rapier, 20 hits -> 1(miss) + 13(base) + 6(crits..2xbase) -> 13+12-> 25 base
25 base / 20 hits -> 1.25 base per hit

Khopesh, 20 hits -> 1(miss) + 15(base) + 4(crits...3xbase) -> 15+12->27 base
27 base / 20 hits -> 1.35 base per hit

Rapier: 1.25
Khopesh: 1.35

Rapier (50 base*1.25) -> 62.5
Khopesh (50 base*1.35) -> 67.5

Rapier vs Khopesh -> 5 dmg per hit @ 50 base damage (not including extra damage effects)

Basically, not quite an extra PA feat, but close ... or, if you prefer, 1 1/2 SA die.


I use rapiers for various reasons, including that PL:SoS doesn't suck even a little bit.


Some additional examples:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rapier (40 base*1.25) -> 50
Khopesh (40 base*1.35) -> 54
Rapier vs Khopesh -> 4 dmg per hit @ 40 base damage (not including extra damage effects)

Rapier (30 base*1.25) -> 37.5
Khopesh (30 base*1.35) -> 40.5
Rapier vs Khopesh -> 3 dmg per hit @ 30 base damage (not including extra damage effects)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[suszterpatt]

When did 1d6 > 1d6?

Brain fart on my part, for some reason I thought Rapiers are 1d8.

Though technically, half of all picks are light picks, so on average they deal 1d5 damage.

Just to be sure that we are talking about the same thing.

I was comparing

Rapiers with the feats: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, PA, IC: Pierce, Toughness and an extra feat

to

Khopeshes with the feats: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, PA, IC: Slash, Toughness and EWP: Khopesh.

In this comparison, Khopesh usually wins, damage-wise, but the Rapier add other options such as a past life feat, SF: UMD, or other neat stuff.

Saying that rapiers are "best" might be a personal opinion, but it is not a general fact. I am not denying the fact that Rapier + other feat can deal more damage than Khopeshes and no other feat, but in general, they don't.

Well yes, my point is that if you look at the build as a whole, I don't think the increased damage is worth losing the benefits of that extra feat. I guess I just don't value base DPS on rogues as much as the next guy.

[krud]

Khopesh out dps'es a rapier on your typical strength based rogue, but not by very much - a few percent in most situations. You can't go wrong either way. I have a str based rogue-mutt who started out with rapiers, and switched over to khopeshes. Overall, I think I liked the rapiers better, especially when solo I found the extra crit range of the rapier to be much more helpful on my radiance weapons. For me khopesh was the better raiding weapon, where boss dps seemed to overshadow trash mob effectiveness. Against all those red named bosses the khopesh upped my dps by slightly more than a few percent. If i had to drop khopesh I'd probably take quickdraw in its place