Khopeshes or piercing weaps for a rogue....

[EliahuTheMighty]

What are the pro's and cons to each of these when thinking about what weapon a rogue should choose? This will be a halfling pure rogue, dual wielding.

Piercing: Picks and rapiers are desirable for high crit damage and fast attack speed, and don't require special training. But not so commonly found? Expensive?

Khopesh: Wider attack range, but must specialize, costing a feat. Also, apparently they are expensive on the AH.

What else is there to consider? Please explain your reasoning as much as possible. Also please confirm or deny my above thoughts on the two.

[dkyle]

If you're willing to spend the feat, go for Khopesh.

If not, go with Rapier.

Picks aren't a good choice. They're strictly worse than Rapiers, and cost a pure Rogue a feat that you could be spending on Khopesh, unless you're willing to wrangle Master's Touch scrolls.

[EliahuTheMighty]

If you're willing to spend the feat, go for Khopesh.

If not, go with Rapier.

Picks aren't a good choice. They're strictly worse than Rapiers, and cost a pure Rogue a feat that you could be spending on Khopesh, unless you're willing to wrangle Master's Touch scrolls.

Why wouldn't I spend the feat on Khopesh? Also, why are picks worse than rapiers? And do they require a feat to use without penalty? I didn't think that was the case...

[dkyle]

Why wouldn't I spend the feat on Khopesh?

I guess you could prefer OTWF, if you're worried about your attack bonus. But I'd take Khopesh.

Also, why are picks worse than rapiers? And do they require a feat to use without penalty? I thought not....

Rogues do not get Pick proficiency be default. Rogues do not get martial weapon proficiency, like Fighters do. They get simple weapons, and some specific martial weapons, including Rapiers.

And furthermore, Scimitars have a few minor advantages over Picks: they benefit more from seeker alignment burst effects, and spread out damage is generally better than spiky damage. Picks have no advantage.

[theboatman]

The only martial weapons rogues are proficient in are rapier/shortsword/shortbow. Both Picks and Khopeshes require proficiency to avoid a +4 attack penalty. Martial weapons such as picks can be masters touched (via scroll or other means) to gain proficiency. Exotic weapons cannot.


Also, coming to the forums and asking for help/information then getting snarky isnt the best way to enourage the discussion you are looking for.

[Yagi]

It depends on what you want out of your rogue Imo. Personally I ran up a Kopesh and a rapier user, and now my Kopesh user uses rapiers too, as the extra crit range helps for radiance while saving a feat/increasing my choice of weapons, and my bursts go off more often and I crit more during helplessness where time is a factor (and we now have to roll for crits). If all I did was roll high and never have to jump on high-priority mobs until somebody else on my team has agro or is in range for diplo baiting I'd probably have stuck with the kopeshes, but reality doesnt always mesh with theorycraft.

Both are very solid choices, consider what weapons you ultimately want to end up with, and how much you are willing to invest on the journey to obtain them. You can always use one type and pick up the other at a later date as you see fit and readjust your character with a lr or feat swap.


And as of update 9, picks on a rogue are treading into the "flavour" catagory.

[EliahuTheMighty]

Also, coming to the forums and asking for help/information then getting snarky isnt the best way to enourage the discussion you are looking for.

Sorry, I didn't realize that I was being or coming off that way, and it wasn't my intention to do so. So I don't keep doing it, what did I say that made you think that?

I guess you could prefer OTWF, if you're worried about your attack bonus. But I'd take Khopesh.

What is OTWF? And what do you like about khopeshes?

And furthermore, Scimitars have a few minor advantages over Picks: they benefit more from seeker alignment burst effects, and spread out damage is generally better than spiky damage. Picks have no advantage.

By spread out dmg, do you mean glancing blows? I've never used picks before, so I don't know how they work. Also, are you suggesting that scimitars would be a good alternative? Would they require a feat/AP to use well like picks would?

My one thought is that if I'm already using rapiers and shortswords, then piercing weapon focus would be a logical feat to take, and picks are pierce. But if I'd have to spend extra for them, I may stick with just rapiers and shortswords.

Again, why do people favor khopeshes?

[EliahuTheMighty]

It depends on what you want out of your rogue Imo. Personally I ran up a Kopesh and a rapier user, and now my Kopesh user uses rapiers too, as the extra crit range helps for radiance while saving a feat/increasing my choice of weapons, and my bursts go off more often and I crit more during helplessness where time is a factor (and we now have to roll for crits). If all I did was roll high and never have to jump on high-priority mobs until somebody else on my team has agro or is in range for diplo baiting I'd probably have stuck with the kopeshes, but reality doesnt always mesh with theorycraft.

Both are very solid choices, consider what weapons you ultimately want to end up with, and how much you are willing to invest on the journey to obtain them. You can always use one type and pick up the other at a later date as you see fit and readjust your character with a lr or feat swap.


And as of update 9, picks on a rogue are treading into the "flavour" catagory.

So there's definitely a lot about the mechanics of teh game that I don't know about obviously (only been playing for about 2 months, and wasn't a pnp player before that).
What do you mean by radiance?
What do you mean by helplessness?

[Zirun]

Sorry, I didn't realize that I was being or coming off that way, and it wasn't my intention to do so. So I don't keep doing it, what did I say that made you think that?




What is OTWF? And what do you like about khopeshes?




By spread out dmg, do you mean glancing blows? I've never used picks before, so I don't know how they work. Also, are you suggesting that scimitars would be a good alternative? Would they require a feat/AP to use well like picks would?

My one thought is that if I'm already using rapiers and shortswords, then piercing weapon focus would be a logical feat to take, and picks are pierce. But if I'd have to spend extra for them, I may stick with just rapiers and shortswords.

Again, why do people favor khopeshes?

OTWF is Oversized Two Weapon Fighting, which eliminates the attack penalty for using a large weapon in the off-hand.

By 'spead out damage', he means that the damage over time against a single target is spead out. Picks have a lower crit range and higher crit multiplier, which makes their damage most bursty; they have huge spikes of damage on 20s and 19s with improved crit, but that's not as consistent as the lower damage something like a rapier does with its lower multiplier and higher crit range.

Picks aren't really good at all except as flavour. There are some situations where they are better than others, but generally other weapons are superior for anybody.

People favour khopeshes because they do the most damage to the most enemies.

Radiance is an on-crit effect of certain Greensteel (and perhaps other, I don't know) weapons that blinds opponents and makes them vulnerable to sneak attacks.

Helplessness is a state caused by stuns and some other CC effects (holds, not sure what else). Helpless mobs and players take extra damage (mobs take 50%, players take up to 25% based on the difficulty).

[blametroi]

I get the feeling that the OP may not have seen this or if so read it in depth recently. It's a good read, and I've read it multiple times over my rogue career--there's a lot of information to soak up playing a rogue.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Notes..._Dancing_Rogue

She didn't talk much about weapon choices, as I recall, but other mechanics are well written up.

In answer to the original question, I keep looking at weapons and feats, and can't make myself part with a feat for khopesh proficiency. I have a twf khopesh fighter, and love the khopesh, but the return on investment for a rogue doesn't seem to be there.

I'm trying to decide if I want to do a feat swap on my helf rogue from wizard to fighter dilettante to get access to some more martial weapons, but she's 14 now and I'm not really seeing a strong need.

[bandyman1]

What are the pro's and cons to each of these when thinking about what weapon a rogue should choose? This will be a halfling pure rogue, dual wielding.

Piercing: Picks and rapiers are desirable for high crit damage and fast attack speed, and don't require special training. But not so commonly found? Expensive?

Khopesh: Wider attack range, but must specialize, costing a feat. Also, apparently they are expensive on the AH.

What else is there to consider? Please explain your reasoning as much as possible. Also please confirm or deny my above thoughts on the two.

You seem to be under a few misconceptions;

Piercing: Rapiers have a high crit range. 18-20; Meaning that they will crit most often of the three weapons. But they are 18-20/x2, meaning that they only multiply damage x2, and use the lowest damage profile for bursts, on a crit. This makes them great for applying effects that take place when you crit with a weapon, like the blindness effect from a radiance II weapon, but also means that they'll do less crit damage than a weapon with a higher crit multiplier. Picks only crit on a 20, but they multiply damage x4, which is the highest crit multiplier possible.

Picks and rapiers do not have higher attack speed than any other weapon. As a pure rogue, you will be proficient with rapiers, but not with picks.

Khopesh: Khopesh will require a feat to be proficient in. They crit on a 19-20, and multiply damage x3.

[EliahuTheMighty]

If you are a new player Kopeshs will be rally, really expensive most probably prohibitively too expensive to buy them from the AH.

Rapiers are cheaper, and thus you can easier afford better ones.



If plat is of no concern to you:
* Picks have no advantage.
* Rapiers crit often, thus benefit from on-crit-effects. As a longer-time goal this makes the shroud-craftet Radiance Rapier your prefered weapon of choice. It blinds on crit, making the mobs sneakable and severly lowering their fighting-back abilities, too.
* Kopeshs cost a feat, but have a slightly higher DPS output. And you need to be STR-based as their higher DPS output comes from multiplying the base-damage you deal via their high crit-value. So if you base-damage is lowish, Kopeshs wont do you much good over Rapiers. Also a Radiace Kopesh is not as good as a Radiance Rapier.

Thanks everyone for all of the help and input!

A few more questions: Any idea of just how much more dps a khopesh rogue (I will be str based) will be doing than a rapier one? Also, is it feasible to use a rapier and in hand, and a khopesh in the other? Would it matter which was in which hand?
Someone mentioned making a LitII khopesh or something like that (GS I believe). Is that different than the radiance one? And what would it be under in the wiki?

In total, how many extra ap/feats would I need to be fully deadly/competent with each of these choices:
Double khopesh (khopesh, twf, how about the higher twf feats, and anything else?)
Double rapier (twf, also higher twf feats? Anything else?)

Also, it sounds like picks are out :-). Were they nerfed in the last update or something?


I'm still working my way to a 32-point build, and then I'll probably make the rogue. After that, I've got a number of weapons saved up for him, because it will be a long while before I get to thinking about endgame play. I'm still only lvl 14 on my first toon after 2 months! (Any tips on xp farm quests 14-20?)

[karl_k0ch]

Thanks everyone for all of the help and input!

A few more questions: Any idea of just how much more dps a khopesh rogue (I will be str based) will be doing than a rapier one?
Some DPS estimates suggest that rapiers are about 5% behind Khopeshes in damage dealt, depending of course on build, race, and other feat choices.


Also, is it feasible to use a rapier and in hand, and a khopesh in the other? Would it matter which was in which hand?
Not at all. Eventually, you want to pick up exactly one Improved Critical Feat, which comes in the slashing or piercing flavor. Picking one will favor that particular type of weapons, so mixing weapon types is not a good thing, as long as you are attacking mobs which are vulnerable to critical hits.

Someone mentioned making a LitII khopesh or something like that (GS I believe). Is that different than the radiance one? And what would it be under in the wiki?
The unique feature of a Radiance 2 weapon is the ability to blind mobs on crit and allow sneak attack damage, regardless of aggro. This is a huge boost to a rogue's dps. Lightning2's special feature is a Lighning Strike, dealing 600-650 with a chance of 2-3%. It enhances the DPS of any character, provided the mob attacked is not lightning immune.


In total, how many extra ap/feats would I need to be fully deadly/competent with each of these choices:
Double khopesh (khopesh, twf, how about the higher twf feats, and anything else?)
Double rapier (twf, also higher twf feats? Anything else?)
For both: TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Power Attack, Toughness (not a DPS issue, but I put it here so you don't forget it.)
For Rapiers additionally: Improved Critical: Piercing
For Khopeshs additionally: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh
Optional for both to enhance to-hit chance: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting.



Also, it sounds like picks are out :-). Were they nerfed in the last update or something?
Something like this. In generic situations, Picks were never a good choice, but in so-called autocrit situations their x4 crit multiplier was putting them ahead of all other weapons. U9 removed these situations.

I'm still working my way to a 32-point build, and then I'll probably make the rogue. After that, I've got a number of weapons saved up for him, because it will be a long while before I get to thinking about endgame play. I'm still only lvl 14 on my first toon after 2 months! (Any tips on xp farm quests 14-20?)
Gianthold (13-16ish) , Necropolis 4 (14-17ish) and the Vale of Twilight (16+) should contain enough quests to get you to 20.

Answers in orange.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I guess you could prefer OTWF, if you're worried about your attack bonus. But I'd take Khopesh.

Or the Rogue could be aiming for the past life feat.

[kcru]

Sorry, I didn't realize that I was being or coming off that way, and it wasn't my intention to do so. So I don't keep doing it, what did I say that made you think that?

Your previous post here:

Why wouldn't I spend the feat on Khopesh? Also, why are picks worse than rapiers? And do they require a feat to use without penalty? I thought not....

The phrase "I thought not" is usually used in a condescending way, as if the person you asked the previous question was forced to be silent because they're wrong, and the "I thought not" is rubbing their noses in it.

If that wasn't your intention, changing it to "I didn't think that was the case..." comes across as a lot more humble and seeking answers instead of providing them.

[Quarterling]

IMHO, it depends on your play-style when it is up to deciding on whether to go rapier or khopesh.

No matter which of the two weapons you choose, you will always want to get Improved Critical. Khopesh will cost you another feat, unless you want to keep the -4 penalty to all attack rolls.

The math has been done, and a 17-20/x3 khopesh out-DPS'es a 15-20/x2 rapier. Why would you consider going rapier then? There are a few reasons such as having radiance proc more often (like some have said before me) and to save a feat.

[EliahuTheMighty]

Your previous post here:




The phrase "I thought not" is usually used in a condescending way, as if the person you asked the previous question was forced to be silent because they're wrong, and the "I thought not" is rubbing their noses in it.

If that wasn't your intention, changing it to "I didn't think that was the case..." comes across as a lot more humble and seeking answers instead of providing them.

Thanks for the input, it's changed now. :-)

[EliahuTheMighty]

Ok, so if going rapier saves me the one feat (which seems to be the big advantage), what other feat would I choose that would justify/compensate?

Keep in mind that this will be a non-TR 32 build, focusing on dps and durability (assassin fully, with some hp things along the way and what have you).

Overall, it sounds like Khopesh will be the way to go (with price for bought weapons being the only real drawback), switching out for special rapiers/shortswords if the situation calls for it.

[stille_nacht]

also, you could always just take improved crit: pierce in addition to IC: slash, and use radiance rapiers, then switch to your khopesehs

[Aerendil]

Ok, so if going rapier saves me the one feat (which seems to be the big advantage), what other feat would I choose that would justify/compensate?

Keep in mind that this will be a non-TR 32 build, focusing on dps and durability (assassin fully, with some hp things along the way and what have you).

Overall, it sounds like Khopesh will be the way to go (with price for bought weapons being the only real drawback), switching out for special rapiers/shortswords if the situation calls for it.

Definitely 1 feat (Khopesh), possibly 2 (OTWF). Might just be my experience, but I find there's far more viable light offhanders going pierce than slash (CC Smallblade being the obvious one).

IMO, if you're going the radiance weapon route - I'd go pierce. Radiance rapier + smallblade is a great combo.

If going pure all-out dps, then I'd go slashing and pick up twin greensteel khopeshes (lit2).