Puzzles should be optional for quest completion

[THOTHdha]

Tomb of the Tormented: also a valid complaint, but only because of the timing(and time necessary) involved and not so much because of the difficulty of the puzzle.

I was ready to join in the ranting about 'the dumbing down of DDO' until you reminded me of this one. >.< Oh man, I hate those rats.....

But that said, it is unfortunate that the OP's playing experience was ruined in this way. It really might be a good idea to check over the wiki or a similar sight to make sure that you know about and are able to get past any puzzles before you get to them. But it seems like most people enjoy the non-hack'n'slash that these puzzles provide.

[SardaofChaos]

When I played pnp D&D the DM would allow for hints based on an awareness type roll if a players character had the intelligence score high enough to figure out a puzzle. Its fair enough as just about every other action in the game is mostly based on difficulty roles of some kind. Theres no reason I can see why this cant be implemented into DDO.

I would like this, as long as it was voiced. If it was just like spotting a secret door or sensing a trap then it would be lame.

[zwiebelring]

@OP
Where do you draw the line other people want less fighting and use more social skills to complete the quest, maybe like in Prison of the planes in the Lamania cell. I for my part don't like puzzles as well but how about implementing a riddle/puzzle level (like in Silent Hill 2)?

I am actually attracted to the Crystal Cove's level adjustment so why not do the same for puzzles/traps. The actual difficulties just increase stats + immunities of the monsters and flat trap dcs + dmg. it seems, how about creating an option to increase trap numbers if not possible to generate random traps and/or in-/decreaese puzzle difficulty?

Puzzles are a difficult thing by itself. A puzzle ignores the d20 completely and challenges the player, not his toon. This is actually a nice alternative since DDO is mostly a flat hage + charge + dps the s*** out of the mob.

The perfect game will never be created but a tool to choose the actual difficulty of puzzles was a very nice thing to let everybody play his skills to a maximum challenge if so desired.

And honestly, Enter The Kobold has the most annoying puzzle ever. The reference to the chessboard doesn't help me as well. A guide for the correct application is still missing in my google results. Whatever I get it done. Run it twice on casual and normal and then be done with it forever.

Otherwise I never had any problem with tile puzzles except in this particular quest the teleport-maze.

[THOTHdha]

I have a serious question for you. Would you purchase a DDO store item that auto-solved your puzzle for you?


Call it a 'Bell of Puzzling' or "Puzzle Mephit" whatever.


Seems like that would be an opportunity for Turbine to make some money.

Just a wild suggestion. I think there should be a skill for puzzle solving that works like getting a DM hint and each puzzle should be assigned a limit of allowed hints and a penalty for using the hints.

Possibly when a character interacts with a puzzle on each move/piece they can select this skill which will reveal part of the puzzle. However each puzzle should be given a maximum use of this skill on it so for instance on a simple line pattern tile puzzle there are only two uses of the skill on this (ie two allowed hints). Each use of the skill would reveal three correctly linked tiles but for a -10%xp penalty per hint for essentially getting DM help.

Maybe a higher intelligence on a toon can give non penalty hints. This allows for a player who is playing a highly intelligent toon (more intelligent than him/her) to get a related benefit within a role playing capacity.

Both of these seem like viable ways to handle the situation for people interested in bypassing puzzles.

The 'puzzle mephit' or similar idea could bring revenue to the DDO store. It seems like people have already proven willing to buy convenience items such as mummy and beholder items.

I am not sure why the 'reasoning' skill would need to have an XP penalty to it. You are spending valuable skill points on it. I would much rather see it as timed. You work at the puzzle for a minute or two, then the GM gives a hint. The time it takes depends on skill level. It seems like this would absolutely need to be one of the skill that you have to invest skill points in before you receive any effect, like Tumble or UMD. There are many people who do not want that kind of spoiler.

I would really love to see something like this added, as it would free the level designers to come up with challenging puzzles. Not many of them in DDO are really that hard, and with something like this we could really see interesting optional puzzles!

[jillie]

I admit upfront that I haven't read the entire thread, but i'm compelled to respond to the OP.

/not signed. no. no. no.

another easy button is wanted. Devs, please ignore this request!

[kiaoto]

Puzzles should be optional part of D&D. If your puzzle fanatic, have at it. Do all the optional puzzle you want. Stop making them requirements to finish quest. /signed

[CrosisBlackwing]

Finishing a quest should be an optional part of D&D. If you are a Quest Finishing fanatic, have at it. Do all the optional Quest FInishing you want. Stop making them requirements to finish the quest. /notsigned

[countfitz]

You say "interesting" I say frustrating. Which do you think is the more common reaction?

Puzzles are only interesting if you are interested in puzzles. I am not, hence my dislike of having to do them to complete the quest.

Seriously? Look at the responses. I've never seen any thread on these boards more unanimous. Every post between your first and this agree they're fun and interesting and should stay.

[ceiswyn]

@OP
Where do you draw the line other people want less fighting and use more social skills to complete the quest, maybe like in Prison of the planes in the Lamania cell. I for my part don't like puzzles as well but how about implementing a riddle/puzzle level (like in Silent Hill 2)?

Or maybe a quest or two that play out differently depending what options you select in a dialogue. There aren't many options to actually play your alignment at the moment, after all.

[Cold_Stele]

So the guys who love puzzles *really* love doing the exact same one over and over and over again?

10 runs through Kobold on a TR and you're still loving every second of it?

Really? Really?

Personally I find it tedious...

[Satinavian]

In this case I was more referring to when doing it for the very first time, if you don't have a clue where the wrong tiles are then you have to be kinda lucky to not kill him. I know you're a dev and all, but I am speaking from experience here. I killed him the first three times :P Wrong choice of words on my part, not really impossible but unlikely. Cleric would make it much easier since you can just heal him back up.

Well, i did it the first time solo without any previous knowledge on a cleric. It is possible. Yes, i healed him, but i think, it wasn't really neccessary.

Not sure, if it could plausibly be done on hard or elite this way. Oh, and if i had not been solo, most groups would not have invested this amount of time. But it was fun. More puzzles like this one.

[zwiebelring]

Or maybe a quest or two that play out differently depending what options you select in a dialogue. There aren't many options to actually play your alignment at the moment, after all.

That seems a good idea, BUT I even think that is too much work for the devs and looking on all buigs and problems in DDO...

let them work on these first.

[ceiswyn]

So the guys who love puzzles *really* love doing the exact same one over and over and over again?

Nope. I imagine we all prefer the ones that change between runs. The mastermind-type puzzle in Reaver, the 3D puzzle in that IQ quest, the 'lights out' puzzles in Shroud; the method stays the same, but the puzzle is always different.

Of course, that's exactly the kind of puzzle the OP doesn't want, because it requires the solver to think, rather than opening a walkthrough and following the instructions.

10 runs through Kobold on a TR and you're still loving every second of it?

Well, after 60 runs of Shroud I'm still loving the puzzles in there. And yes, yes I am still rather fond of the puzzle in Kobold.

Personally I find it tedious...

Personally, I don't.

What is it with people who can't understand that everybody does not think exactly the same way they do?

You know, there's a psychological theory that children develop an idea of other people as having different likes, motivations and knowledges to themselves at about age six. Sadly, a quick read of any messageboard blows that one right out of the water...

[Sarisa]

Going to the most hated quest list...

Number of Replies Tracked:
201

Individual Quests:
[43] Tomb of the Tormented
[32] Pit
[29] Hold for Reinforcements
[28] Coalescence Chamber
[25] Proof is in the Poison
[16] Stealthy Repossession
[15] Faithful Departed
[15] Gladewatch Outpost
[15] Let Sleeping Dust Lie
[13] Kobold Assault

The top two are "puzzle and maze based quests". #4 is also a "mazey" quest. Most actually tend to be more hated due to having party unfriendly mechanics or easy to trigger failure mechanisms. Looking further down the list, there are more puzzle based quests listed by repliers as "hated".

Compare to the top 10 most loved:

Number of Replies Tracked:
108

Individual Quests:
[22] Rainbow in the Dark
[20] Pit
[18] Delirium
[12] Crucible
[11] Partycrashers
[ 9] Gianthold Tor
[ 9] Shroud
[ 9] Stormcleave Outpost
[ 9] Tear of Dhakaan
[ 9] Undermine

Many have puzzle elements, but aside from Crucible, are not dominated by the puzzles. Rainbow's is very simple, Pit's the most polarizing quest in the game, and Delirium makes the puzzle mechanisms fun due to the "You're Insane!" mechanic in the quest. Partycrashers has some puzzle optionals, along with a lot of non-linearity that is completely optional. You CAN muscle through the quest if you wish, it's just more difficult.

Crucible is the most puzzle/maze dependent quest on the top 10 list. Unfortunately, this is one I feel isn't done as well as most of the others, due to the fact that it doesn't involve everyone. If you're a divine caster, you WILL feel like a near useless healbot here, aside from maybe Destruct'ing a few casters on top of the maze while you sit on a wheel. Two of the four major puzzles are heavily tilted toward the evasive/high reflex save folks. It's also a quest that you MUST do in order to flag for Tor, so it can't be avoided if you don't want to deal with the puzzles. I would not suggest changing the quest though, since the puzzles are what defines the quest. I just want future areas to not have the same required area.

The most popular puzzle elements seem to be ones where there is either an alternative way of proceeding, such as beating down Sanyasi (Monastery of the Scorpion) rather than solving the puzzle (difficult but doable, you just lose out on a chest). Or, the puzzle element is an optional for extra experience/loot, such as the new one in In the Flesh, where if what someone earlier in the thread said was true, even gives you a hint if you take too long.

Regarding specific puzzles, here's my opinion mixed with the replies from the love and hate threads:

Shroud: Part 3 is like an intermission. A lot of people hate it, but with Knock/rogue levels, people can get in and solve for you. You can also break crystals for fast completion at the expense of loot. It's not as big of a time drain as part 1, but it does tend to drag out a raid that will get run a massive number of times. Mixed opinions on this.

Monestary: If you don't want to do it, you can just beat down one of the hardest hitting non-epic mobs around. You lose out on a chest, but it's a nice challenge for a well built group. Most opinions are positive on this one, especially now that there are no unsolvable puzzles INITIALLY made.

Enter the Kobold: It's a fairly long intermission, right before a particularly nasty end fight. It's not terribly popular, and I feel part of it is due to the longish teleport animation (since all your buffs then reapply), the lag resulting from the teleport, and the fact that you then have to jump again since it'll toggle the button you land on. While it's a neat logic puzzle, it just feels a tad out of place in that particular quest. I don't remember exactly, but I think it also changes the way you are facing each time you take a teleporter, so that can disorient you and make it more difficult for a visual minded individual to navigate.

Crucible: Heavily skewed toward the evasive or high reflex save folks, who also tend to have low enough wisdom to do the Instinct test as well. Solving the maze portion, even when everyone knows it, can take a while with the very annoying caster mobs summoning exponential numbers of mephits. Many people are going to feel useless while only one or two people get to do all the "fun", and the boss fight is very anti-climatic. Well loved, but also commonly hated.

Maze of Madness: This is one done right. It's totally optional, but you are rewarded with a great bit of experience and very valuable Argonesson favour. It also involves everyone, unlike the Crucible.

Twilight Forge: Loved by some, hated by many. The whole thing, besides Purple, the entrance area, and the final gauntlet, is nothing but a series of puzzles. It tries to engage everyone, but due to the design of the raid itself, Green is usually done through DDoor's shortmanned instead. Red's puzzle is a little better, as it's quick and all three people doing it get to participate. It's rather old content, so that excuses it a little.

Vault of Night: Also a series of interconnected puzzles, but less "touchy" than the ones in the Twilight Forge. It's also one that doesn't engage the whole party, sometimes to the extent where one or two people do the entire quest aside from pulling levers in north and switches in south.

Prove Your Worth: Totally optional quest, so it's perfectly fine being a gauntlet of puzzles and tricks. You do not need to do this quest in order to get experience, due to having so many others the same level.

Ghost of a Chance: A truly diabolical puzzle at the end, but you have an alternative way to complete. The quest rewards you with more optional experience than the entire quest is worth.

Inferno of the Damned: Not a puzzle, but a pair of interconnected mazes. Part of the problem is that for many people, it's hard to visualize how the two parts intertwine. It truly isn't too difficult of a maze, it just requires someone to follow a cheatsheet or have someone with good spatial skills. Commonly hated, and it's one that I hated until I learned how it worked. Then it just "clicked" and made sense.

Reaver's Fate: Without playing Mastermind at the end, there would be practically no substance to this at all. There are enough solvers out there using Donald Knuth's 5-step algorithm to make it fast and easy to complete.

Dream Conspiracy: Totally optional, and worth a nice bit of experience and extra loot (and extra blue loops). Done right, since you CAN just go run it again and skip the puzzle totally.

Against the Demon Queen: The order of the wings is a series of presets, rather than truly random. Thus, we can use a cheat-sheet listing them to rapidly finish. This should be kept due to having to run this quest every single time we want to run the raid.

Accursed Ascension: All the puzzles aren't too difficult to do legitimately, it's just usually faster and easier to have a capstone Cleric or dark monk do Ice; then have Goggles be done the "typical" way. Goggles legitimate is very dependent on latency to the server, as even being a little off-time can make it fail. Server, Client, and Internet latency should not be a failure condition in a raid. I like the idea behind the raid, it's just the implementation of it tends to cause it to be more annoying than fun.

In The Flesh: Not really a puzzle, but a puzzle like end fight. It's nice because it engages everyone. It can take time, but it doesn't feel as obnoxious as you're constantly doing SOMETHING the whole time. Whether it's clearing trash, or guiding orbs, or watching for pods before he fires off Mind Thrust. In addition, as I mentioned above, the optional puzzle elements are nice because they are optionals. You don't HAVE to do them, but if you do, they're extra loot and experience. PS. The Air jets over the chaos orbs on elite were a nasty surprise.

My opinion in summary is that I like the puzzles, and only dislike a few (Crucible, Enter the Kobold - but not due to the puzzle itself, due to the way teleport works). I feel they're best done when it's either the entire goal of an optional quest, if it's an optional that gives a worthwhile experience or loot bonus, or if there is an alternative way to proceed for those who don't wish to do the puzzles.

I feel that puzzles should always be part of the game, D&D wouldn't be the same otherwise. Continue making neat and interesting puzzles, both simple and diabolically evil.

[Cold_Stele]

@ Sarisa - excellent post +1

What is it with people who can't understand that everybody does not think exactly the same way they do?

You know, there's a psychological theory that children develop an idea of other people as having different likes, motivations and knowledges to themselves at about age six. Sadly, a quick read of any messageboard blows that one right out of the water...

OP is stating a simple opinion and getting some not too polite replies. I don't think he's the one with issues...

The fact of the matter is that we all know people have different motivations for playing MMO's - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test. You see puzzles as being a fun part of the game - many will agee, many will disagree, probably a lot more won't even care. Personally I see them as a needless time sink thwarting my desire to cap as many toons as possible in the already limited time I have to play.

I'm not adverse to pulling out a solver, but I'll gladly let anyone else do it who wants to. My particular hate is Kobold, as it just ruins the pace of the quest and the climax. To be honest, if all you have to do when you come across a puzzle is go to DDO wiki, I just don't see the point...

[Uska]

My god! Enter the kobold puzzle is EASY. See the 2 lights on the floor in front of you? Hit the one on the left and you go 2 forward and 1 LEFT. Hit the one on the right and you go 2 forward and 1 RIGHT. How HARD is that?

You don't like the puzzles? In PnP most of the time you get a VERBAL description, no visual, when a "puzzle" arises. And these puzzles are NOT that difficult.

Don't want puzzles? Go play something like WoW!

after all this time I didnt know that thank you +1

[ceiswyn]

Going to the most hated quest list...

The top two are "puzzle and maze based quests". #4 is also a "mazey" quest.

I think that lumps together a lot of very distinct things, though. For example, there are puzzles (limited bits of quest that require thought and problem-solving to get past, such as 'lights out' in the Shroud or the maze in Enter the Kobold), platform games (such as jumping on pipes in the Pit, or running up spirals in Coal), and sheer confusing/difficult quest layout (the maps in Coal and the Pit being entirely useless for working out where you are and how to get where you need to go). And then of course there's things like Titan and the boss fight of In The Flesh, which are different again being 'puzzles' of strategy and teamwork.

I'd be interested in a similar analysis that divided the quests along those lines, but I appreciate the time and work that went into your last response!

[ceiswyn]

The fact of the matter is that we all know people have different motivations for playing MMO's - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartle_Test.

That would, yes, be exactly my point. And that's why I'd rather we keep the variety we have - that caters to all those different motivations and playstyles - rather than throwing the balance out of whack.

[~SyZoRe]

So the guys who love puzzles *really* love doing the exact same one over and over and over again?

10 runs through Kobold on a TR and you're still loving every second of it?

Really? Really?

Personally I find it tedious...

yes. REALY

[Kaeldur]

Definitely /notsigned

Puzzles are a vital part of the quests in which they are present. If you can't handle them then learn them. In Enter the Kobold, for example, you move as a knight in chess through the "tiles" of the puzzle. Once I figured that out that puzzle became much easier.