Puzzles should be optional for quest completion

[Postumus]

Suggestion: Make puzzle solving an optional granting extra exp/loot, but don't force those who hate the awful things to do them if they want to run the quest.

I have a serious question for you. Would you purchase a DDO store item that auto-solved your puzzle for you?


Call it a 'Bell of Puzzling' or "Puzzle Mephit" whatever.


Seems like that would be an opportunity for Turbine to make some money.

[bigolbear]

no. flat out no.

puzels are in fact a core part of the traditional d&d experience, just like encounters with bad guys, traps and chests full of loot.

most of the puzels in ddo are fairly simple and those that arent are not mandatory (im thinking 5x5's in shroud for the inexperienced puzel solver).

Im uterly flabergasted that you find the 'puzel' in rainbow in the dark tricky - you never seen a rainbow or something? Sadly you are not by your self here, ive seen many people strugle with this which i have to say makes me chuckle and sad at the same time.

I would say i stand in opposition to your view on this, I would like more puzels, more roleplay, more dialogue choices and less hacky chopy death.

I respect your opinion but i cannot bring my self to agree with you - lets be happy that you get some quests that are zerg fest hack n slash and i get some quests where its beneficial to read the dialogue, look behind the curtains and ocasionaly have to engage my grey matter, ddo is a big enough place for both i think.

[sirgog]

More puzzles.. bring em on!

A quest filled only with random puzzles? Yes please.
A quest where puzzles have to be done simultaneously? Yes please.

Simultaneous puzzles sounds like the Titan preraid, one of the game's most hated quests.

no. flat out no.

puzels are in fact a core part of the traditional d&d experience, just like encounters with bad guys, traps and chests full of loot.

most of the puzels in ddo are fairly simple and those that arent are not mandatory (im thinking 5x5's in shroud for the inexperienced puzel solver).

Im uterly flabergasted that you find the 'puzel' in rainbow in the dark tricky - you never seen a rainbow or something? Sadly you are not by your self here, ive seen many people strugle with this which i have to say makes me chuckle and sad at the same time.

I would say i stand in opposition to your view on this, I would like more puzels, more roleplay, more dialogue choices and less hacky chopy death.

I respect your opinion but i cannot bring my self to agree with you - lets be happy that you get some quests that are zerg fest hack n slash and i get some quests where its beneficial to read the dialogue, look behind the curtains and ocasionaly have to engage my grey matter, ddo is a big enough place for both i think.

If you really want to roleplay it - My Wizard has a 40 Intelligence. Assuming the 'average' human is a 10.5 Int with a standard deviation of around 3 (about how 3d6 is spread), they are 10 standard deviations above the norm.

In IQ terms, 10 SDs above the mean is an IQ of around 250 - high enough that by comparison, Albert Einstein must have been dropped on his head as a baby.

My Wizard could, if we roleplayed the puzzle, solve the Monastery puzzle in the split second before proving (or disproving) the Riemann hypothesis and calculating the meaning of life.

[HanseShadowen]

A puzzle mephit seems a cop out and I think it would be seens a crutch. but far more acceptible than an option to not have them. Personally I can see some adding "no puzzle mephits" to LFM's so it would a two-edged sword.

[Xyfiel]

When you ask for something to be changed to better fit your playstyle, you are asking to take something away from other players playstyle. There are very few quests with other avenues besides massacreing everything in the way. There are also many quests that people don't enjoy. We simply don't do them, do them at a higher level to make it go quicker, or pike them. You are asking for something that will affect other people negatively, essentially passing your dislike to others. Sounds selfish to me.

[Mr.Delightful]

When you ask for something to be changed to better fit your playstyle, you are asking to take something away from other players playstyle. There are very few quests with other avenues besides massacreing everything in the way. There are also many quests that people don't enjoy. We simply don't do them, do them at a higher level to make it go quicker, or pike them. You are asking for something that will affect other people negatively, essentially passing your dislike to others. Sounds selfish to me.

Selfish?

Suggestion: Make puzzle solving an optional granting extra exp/loot, but don't force those who hate the awful things to do them if they want to run the quest.

There is nothing in my suggestion that involves "taking" anything from anyone; I don't want puzzles to disappear from DDO, or development on them to cease, all I want is to make their completion optional in regards to quest completion.

Furthermore, I fail to see how my suggestion could effect anyone negatively; you like puzzles, you do them and cash in. You don't, you bypass the puzzle and you complete the quest. Certainly seems to be a "win-win" to me

Although, as Sirgog mentioned:

The ones I like are the optional ones, or the ones where the puzzle is a component of a combat encounter. Sunken Parish, Siegebreaker, Elite Monastery (where you need party members 'guarding' the puzzle from unlimited respawns), and so on.

If Turbine wants to work a puzzle smoothly into a combat encounter, I don't object. It would be fine if completion of that puzzle/combat encounter was required for completion, as long as the encounter featured a choice: solve the puzzle and weaken/kill the boss or do it "the old fashion way" with brute force (with the puzzle way being more efficient).

The key problem I have with existing "MUST DO" puzzles is they do not offer a choice. The biggest draw of an RPG, for me, is choice. I do not like to have to solve a problem only 1 way, and if I do, I should at least have the option to solve it by not solving it, which my above suggestion would allow (by not requiring puzzle completion to finish the quest).

Additionally, I hate the puzzles that function as a sort of "combat intermission" (like Shroud part 3, Enter the Kobold, The Crucible, etc) that slams the momentum of the quest right into a brick wall. Its like the DM is popping in and saying "Hey, you're having lots of fun playing an action RPG right? Here's some Myst! Enjoy!

I hope I have made my suggestion, and the reasoning behind it, clear. Thank you for listening

[FuzzyDuck81]

I like the way the optional puzzle with the wheels works in the last part of the new chain - after a little while the flayer says "how long does it take you to solve simple addition" (or something similar) which is a handy little pointer without giving away the solution.
Not sure how practical & possible it'd be to implement but maybe something similar could be done for other puzzles, including those on the main path - after a while without it being solved, you get a hint, maybe based off spot/search/int/wisdom/whatever that might start to highlight the correct position of a couple of tiles or whatever, or one highlights in a different colour "your eye is drawn to this tile/symbol in particular" or "your intuition tells you this is important" - nothing too major but again, just little pointers that guide people to how to figure out the solution.

[SardaofChaos]

Additionally, I hate the puzzles that function as a sort of "combat intermission" (like Shroud part 3, Enter the Kobold, The Crucible, etc) that slams the momentum of the quest right into a brick wall. Its like the DM is popping in and saying "Hey, you're having lots of fun playing an action RPG right? Here's some Myst! Enjoy!

Hey, did you know DDO isn't an action RPG? Here's some WoW! Enjoy!

[GeneralDiomedes]

There is nothing in my suggestion that involves "taking" anything from anyone; I don't want puzzles to disappear from DDO, or development on them to cease, all I want is to make their completion optional in regards to quest completion.

However, optionals are rarely done, especially puzzle optionals. Mandatory puzzles give puzzle solvers and leaders a chance to shine. You are taking something from the game when you do that.

Furthermore, I fail to see how my suggestion could effect anyone negatively; you like puzzles, you do them and cash in. You don't, you bypass the puzzle and you complete the quest. Certainly seems to be a "win-win" to me

Then how come it feels like I'm losing? The Crucible just wouldn't be the same without the puzzles.

Are you opposed to trap gauntlets that can't be disabled, such as the Crucible swim, or the Ghola Fan hallway? Those are some of my favorite moments in the game, in no small part because failure is not an option.

I suppose as long as the reward is major, like 1/2 of the possible XP, 1/2 of the chests, unique crafting ingredients, or named loot. Something that makes solving the puzzle worth enough so the majority of the groups running the quest would want to attempt it. But I'd still be losing.

[SisAmethyst]

...What I really hate are puzzles that force me to go through them to complete the quest. I was just going through "Enter the Kobold" today, and I was reminded how much puzzles really ruin large parts of the game for me. After working on it for a while, (which was not fun) I looked up the solution, and found out that sense I had already worked on it a bit, the solution was useless me!...

...Examples: "Prove Your Worth" (Three-Barrel Cove pack) "Siegebreaker" (Attack on Stormreach pack) "Rainbow in the Dark" (Vale of Twilight pack) "Inferno of the Damned" (Necropolis part 4) "The Crucible" (Ruins of Gianthold pack) ...

Dunno what you mean the solution was useless to you?

But to be honest I hope this puzzle stay as it is. First of all I agree with a lot of others that puzzles in this game make it different and not just a MMO hack'n slash clone. Also for most of the puzzles out there exists a whole bunch of solvers and guides for those that don't get used to them. Last but not least it is a game with a group aspect, that mean have someone guide you through. And I not believe it is true that some of those quests are really run that rare, especially Gianthold.

By the way regarding the examples mentioned: The story behind "Prove Your Worth" is exactly to solve those riddles. It would completely contradict and break the entire quest if those are removed. The puzzle in Siegebreaker is so basic and easy that it is really a non issue and with a Trapsmith even a joke. The rainbow at the end of "Rainbow in the Dark" belongs to the storyline and except of color blind player this is such an easy to solve thing that I wouldn't even name it puzzle. This is more a question of your coordination skills, but even then you should at least be able to jump on each tile till the correct color is shown.

I don't know where in "Inferno of the Damned" a puzzle is, except of the maze like structure. But there as well, get someone to lead you through. This quest is run quite regularly that it shouldn't be an issue to find someone that guide you through. Needless to say that it somehow belongs to the quest to have the fire plane connected with the Eberron plane and it would make the quest just too easy if you would just go north, south, west and east in a room and light torches without a little maze.

Finally "The Crucible" is a really fun quest and stands out between others. It is a challenge to go through and belongs to the story of the quest. A question of teamwork with different kind of characters. It would break the story of that quest like in "Prove Your Worth" if you could just bypass it, as this would mean: Enter one single room - slay all Hobgoblins/Orcs/Gnolls - get reward ... meehhhh

PS: It is optional to run most of those quests at all, as you can achieve level 20 even without doing them!

just my 2 cents

[adamkatt]

I don't like puzzles, but I realize some do. What I really hate are puzzles that force me to go through them to complete the quest. I was just going through "Enter the Kobold" today, and I was reminded how much puzzles really ruin large parts of the game for me. After working on it for a while, (which was not fun) I looked up the solution, and found out that sense I had already worked on it a bit, the solution was useless me! So I had to completely restart the quest and not even attempt to solve it on my own to get past it.

Suggestion: Make puzzle solving an optional granting extra exp/loot, but don't force those who hate the awful things to do them if they want to run the quest.

It seems every update, there's always one quest with a frustrating puzzle that sucks the enjoyment right out of the quest. Examples: "Prove Your Worth" (Three-Barrel Cove pack) "Siegebreaker" (Attack on Stormreach pack) "Rainbow in the Dark" (Vale of Twilight pack) "Inferno of the Damned" (Necropolis part 4) "The Crucible" (Ruins of Gianthold pack) Consequently, fewer people run the quest because they don't know the puzzle, depending on some puzzle genius to put together a group and do it for them while they pike. Maybe someday their memorize the puzzle (doesn't that sound fun) and be able to run their own groups (maybe).

So what do people think, should puzzles stay mandatory for quest completion, or should they be optionals for extra for those so inclined?

I agree, ill load up Hoyle Puzzle and Board games if i want puzzles..

[SardaofChaos]

Honestly? I agree with whoever said that if they do become entirely optional, solving them should make up at least half of the treasure and xp gained from doing the quest. Ghost of a Chance is on the right track.

[DrenglisEU]

/not signed! There are puzzzle I like and don't like but still they are part of the whole game atmosphere

[winsom]

I would agree with the OP as far as major quests, such as raid pre-reqs. Im sure the devs would enjoy All Types of players in that content, so they should limit the uberness of the puzzles in these mainstream raid adventures.

In raids and raid flagging quests the puzzles should be kept to the scope of Shroud part 2, or Enter the Kobold. Enter the Kobold is not a required puzzle element any longer. You can do the other parts of the series and still proceed to Stealer of Souls without stepping foot into Kobold.

Examples of bad puzzles are Abbot raid puzzles (last I knew), or ToD kiting part 2, or controlling the Gun in Titan raid. These are typically done with less than full group participation = boring for the other people. Failure in these will result in a complete raid failure = not fun for those not involved, and probably not fun those that failed the "puzzle" either.

I beleive failure at this types of "puzzle" play should result in partial failures, the loss of some nice potential loot, but not the loss of the final end chest if the primary objectives of the adventure can still be met. That is my opinion on how adventure should be written and older mainstream raid-like adventures retooled for the general population that likes puzzles to different degrees.

[Razcar]

The puzzles are something that help make DDO special. There are many - most even - MMOs which are less cerebral than this one, so that part of the market is already very well catered for. Let's please keep DDO a game where you occasionally have to think a little. Having your gaming be a bit "al dente" is only good for you.

[Ladislav]

My problem with the puzzles in DDO is they are completely opposite of RP and D&D and really dont belong in any game that uses RPG in its description.

Why? Well really because of 2 simple stats. Wis and Int.

It's a roleplaying game, not a rollplaying game. Stats are not supposed to supercede roleplay, they are supposed to support it. The ideal would actually be puzzles where you could get some minor clues from having a high stat to assist you, but removing them entirely would actually be removing roleplay encounters.

If not, why bother having anything other than just continuous monster encounters.

In the end though, prior arguments have made the point nicely. This isn't WoW. This is a roleplaying game, which means we need encounters other than just combat. Social encounters are a nightmare without a gm to interact with, so you're looking at acrobatics, puzzles and similar things to make things more interesting.

[TheMidnightMage]

My problem with the puzzles in DDO is they are completely opposite of RP and D&D and really dont belong in any game that uses RPG in its description.

Why? Well really because of 2 simple stats. Wis and Int. These stats are the facets of a character that alone should be taken into account. The cunning to solve puzzles, or the wisdom answer a riddle or some variance of that. Im all for a bardic lore skill or the like existing as well. But the fact is only bad DMs who where in fact meta gaming ever asked the players to think of answers to riddles, or figure out some puzzle. Typically done by DMs who found said riddles and puzzles elsewhere and thought it would be oh so clever to use them to stump his group.

I do agree with this my suggestion would just take more programing. I would say depending on your "Wis/Int" that the puzzle should give you the "Path" to solve it, Quite like the hint/cheat button in other computer puzzles, but this also means that the puzzles should be random without a "true" solution. So the people without hi int or wis have to mess with it till they get it right.. Now that would be real DnD

[Uska]

I like the idea some posted that if you bypass the puzzle you get half loot and xp add to that the other idea that you have a tough fight to go through to be able to by pass the puzzles

[ceiswyn]

Selfish?

Selfish. You don't like something, so you want never to have to do it. As various people have pointed out, that's no different from saying 'I don't like fighting, so all fighting should be optional'.

Furthermore, I fail to see how my suggestion could effect anyone negatively; you like puzzles, you do them and cash in. You don't, you bypass the puzzle and you complete the quest. Certainly seems to be a "win-win" to me

It's because you are asking for DDO to be changed to minimise a specific one of the many aspects of the game. Now, DDO is a game of variety; variety in builds, variety in roles and spell effects, and variety in quests. That means it has something for everyone, because everyone enjoys different things. What you are trying to do is prioritise combat over puzzles; and then being surprised when the people who enjoy puzzles object.

As it is, we have a lot of quests that require combat, a few quests that require timing and acrobatics, and a few quests that require puzzles. And of the well over two hundred quests in this game you managed to name, what, half a dozen that really frustrate you? I'd say that shows a pretty good balance on the part of the devs, myself.

Additionally, I hate the puzzles that function as a sort of "combat intermission" (like Shroud part 3, Enter the Kobold, The Crucible, etc) that slams the momentum of the quest right into a brick wall.

I love the change of pace.

Why don't you go through all your posts, mentally change 'puzzles' to 'combat' and vice versa. Now; how do you feel about that as a suggestion? Because that's basically what you've asked to do to us.

[ceiswyn]

If I could suggest a "tweak" to "optional" being not just making puzzels (and traps for that matter) ways to get at an extra chest, but as ways to find a faster/easier path.

So...take the left fork and there is a complex puzzel or a nasty trap. Disable it and you have a clear run to the next objective. Or take the right fork and there is no puzzle or trap but there are lots of bad guys that need killing.

It brings variety to the quest and changes the quest based on party makeup and playstyle.

/signed.